Accident in Johnson County Kansas Mooney M20 S

[exM20K]

Cirrus aircraft had a horrific safety record well into the last decade.  The company and the owners' group addressed this with standardized, well-thought-out training.  MU2's were lawn-darting every other flight (or something like that).  FAA mandated an SFAR, a well-thought-out  training program.  In both cases, the results were dramatic and have unquestionably saved lives.

I don't want a Cirrus because I don't want to fly a dorky, slow airplane.  I don't want an MU2 because my neighbors would hate me.  But I do wish for better, formalized, standardized training for the long body Mooneys.  I believe Cirrus will even put buyers of used aircraft through an approved program, or at the very least, it is available to them.  Nothing for Mooney.

It takes effort and resources, but if Mooney International could badge up a solid checkout / transition curriculum and promulgate a list of qualified transition instructors, then there is no reason to expect outcomes any different than Cirrus or Mitsubishi pilots have experienced.  Build a culture of safety, training, and excellence.

-dan

 

Edited January 2, 2020 by exM20K

[Andy95W]

3 hours ago, jetdriven said:

,,, but you’re not supposed to trim the plane until it hits the up stop in the flare to land. You flare 

Totally agree.  And also not supposed to cram the throttle forward with such intensity that you can't handle the resultant pitch up.  Smooth and steady throttle, fly the airplane, and even with too much up-trim it's easily controllable.

[whiskytango]

1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

Totally agree.  And also not supposed to cram the throttle forward with such intensity that you can't handle the resultant pitch up.  Smooth and steady throttle, fly the airplane, and even with too much up-trim it's easily controllable.

+1.  One advantage (?) of a 231 with an intercooled LB engine is that you never shove the throttle forward, under any circumstances.  It is way too easy to blow past the 36 inch MAP limit.  The pitch up, even with a lot of trim rolled in, is controllable.

[tmo]

6 hours ago, chrisk said:

That is not the behavior in my plane.  With full flaps, full up trim, and at forward CG,  there is significant pilot input required on a go-around.  --Not that it can't be managed, but pushing the nose down will give you a work out.  -Especially when you are using one hand to put the gear up, open the cowl flaps, etc.

But our K's can be different enough from the J, perhaps?  Mine is a handful too, learned it in transition training before I was told I'm not supposed to do touch-and-goes.  For those, the electric trim on mine just isn't fast enough - or perhaps I am too slow.  And don't ask me about headset cables connected to a portable intercom getting tangled up in the trim wheel...  It probably was the hardest I've ever had to work a control.  That's why I gave a strong "like" to the idea of a supporting 2x4 behind the pilot seat.

[tmo]

5 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

the airplane wants to develop a little bit of rotating torque that needs to be compensated by rudder and aileron input immediately or the plan wants to roll over

I recall an accident like what you describe a few years ago, albeit on a P51.  If memory serves, first solo flight of new owner during transition training.  And not a newbie by any means.  The NTSB report is available - it was back in 2007.

[ArtVandelay]

Could just have been a seat slipping, either in track or the back. I had adjusted my back to be more vertical during flight, the cam slipped on a go around and it went full recline position, this was during transition training. Now I only adjust the back when not seated so I can visually confirm the cam is set correctly.

[Davidv]

8 hours ago, Shadrach said:

If I bought a plane with Slicks I would replace them with Bendix at 500hrs.

Wish I could but not available for my engine...

[ArtVandelay]

9 hours ago, Shadrach said:

If I bought a plane with Slicks I would replace them with Bendix at 500hrs.

I don’t know why, they seem to fail too.

[J0nathan225]

This was my brother's Brigade Commander in the reserves apparently. Sad news starting the new year.

[aviatoreb]

5 minutes ago, J0nathan225 said:

This was my brother's Brigade Commander in the reserves apparently. Sad news starting the new year.

I am very sorry to hear that.  All the best to you, your brother and the rest of the Brigade, and of course his family.

[Blue on Top]

I am guessing that there is not a takeoff warning if trims are not in the correct position, flaps are not in the correct position, etc.

[Niko182]

Just now, Blue on Top said:

I am guessing that there is not a takeoff warning if trims are not in the correct position, flaps are not in the correct position, etc.

That would be the stall warning

Edited January 2, 2020 by Niko182

[Blue on Top]

1 minute ago, Niko182 said:

That would be the stall warning

I’ve heard rumors, but are pilots routinely getting a stall warning on takeoff?  If so, this needs to be fixed.  Is it only during a full flaps takeoff?

These accident scenarios mentioned above are the #1 cause of fatal accidents.  Period.  The base to final turn accounts for only 5%.

[gsxrpilot]

7 minutes ago, Blue on Top said:

I am guessing that there is not a takeoff warning if trims are not in the correct position, flaps are not in the correct position, etc.

Or this...

 

[Hank]

53 minutes ago, Blue on Top said:

I am guessing that there is not a takeoff warning if trims are not in the correct position, flaps are not in the correct position, etc.

I don't think any GA single-engine piston planes have warnings like that . . . . It's all on the pilot to follow procedures and use the checklist.

Most of my takeoffs are Flaps Up. And I run WOT/2700 from the beginning of the runway to my final cruise altitude. How would the warning know when to start and when to stop? since I've never used a sea-level runway.

Edited January 2, 2020 by Hank

[jetdriven]

13 hours ago, exM20K said:

Cirrus aircraft had a horrific safety record well into the last decade.  The company and the owners' group addressed this with standardized, well-thought-out training.  MU2's were lawn-darting every other flight (or something like that).  FAA mandated an SFAR, a well-thought-out  training program.  In both cases, the results were dramatic and have unquestionably saved lives.

I don't want a Cirrus because I don't want to fly a dorky, slow airplane.  I don't want an MU2 because my neighbors would hate me.  But I do wish for better, formalized, standardized training for the long body Mooneys.  I believe Cirrus will even put buyers of used aircraft through an approved program, or at the very least, it is available to them.  Nothing for Mooney.

It takes effort and resources, but if Mooney International could badge up a solid checkout / transition curriculum and promulgate a list of qualified transition instructors, then there is no reason to expect outcomes any different than Cirrus or Mitsubishi pilots have experienced.  Build a culture of safety, training, and excellence.

-dan

 

We have a similar program.  MAPA safety clinics.  

[Shiny moose]

Im not commenting on this or any other crash but There really is no need to jam the power levers full foward during a miss, VFR or IFR. You dont do that on a normal take off do you? Fly a turbo and jam it forward a few times your pocket book will teach you a good lesson. Slowy or even partial power is good enough, arrest your decent, get the climb if needed, check your trim, clean up if needed, take your time, its not a race. My .02 more than PP

[k8n]

N602TF at KGGG Aug 2019

[exM20K]

2 hours ago, jetdriven said:

We have a similar program.  MAPA safety clinics.  

Bryon,

I've done three of the MAPASF PPP's in the last 20 years and believe it is a very good program, albeit lacking in longbody and Acclaim-specific content.   But a proficiency program is, in my mind, different from a transition training program, the latter of which should have a checklist of stuff to cover and a curriculum than can be delivered on demand by qualified instructors.  Maybe promulgate a list of CFI's and their model expertise on Mooney's website, as they do with service centers. Maybe I'm overthinking this....

-dan

[Ned Gravel]

3 hours ago, jetdriven said:

We have a similar program.  MAPA safety clinics.  

Or.... "How to stall a Mooney in 20 different and exciting ways."    Every time I take one of these MAPA safety clinics they find one more way to scare the living daylights out of me.

[Oldguy]

1 hour ago, exM20K said:

Bryon,

I've done three of the MAPASF PPP's in the last 20 years and believe it is a very good program, albeit lacking in longbody and Acclaim-specific content.   But a proficiency program is, in my mind, different from a transition training program, the latter of which should have a checklist of stuff to cover and a curriculum than can be delivered on demand by qualified instructors.  Maybe promulgate a list of CFI's and their model expertise on Mooney's website, as they do with service centers. Maybe I'm overthinking this....

-dan

I believe @mike_elliott has delivered the planes and the training for several of the new Ultra owners, and on the Mooney web site, it talks about potential eligibility for $10K of certified instruction.

Not sure how that works, since I probably won't be putting down a deposit on a new Mooney...

[Shadrach]

13 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I don’t know why, they seem to fail too.

Everything fails given enough time and nothing is perfect. I’ll still take Bendix over Slick on reliability, longevity and serviceability.  The biggest problems with Bendix is that 1) people tend to neglect them because they will run reliably well past 500 hours and 2) it’s hard to find a local mechanic under 60 years old that will service them. 

[mike_elliott]

There is a formal Mooney Transition training program Mooney International uses for new Ultras, Dan, but it is not an official program for used Mooney sales. Used Long body Mooneys sold thru the Mooney sales companies the new owners are typically referred to appropriate transition trainers to complete a competent check out course.

Legal shot down a Mooney Certified instructor program I proposed a few years ago to them, but instead, blessed the formation of Mooney Pros, Inc. with vetted instructors by Mooney and Mooney Pros, Inc. and continue to refer new to them Mooney owners (Used) to me when they are quizzed where to get transition training from when they buy a used Mooney. More often than not, I refer them to one of the Mooney Pro Instructors.

While we are precluded by NDA from using the Mooney training program, we do follow the objectives in used Mooney transition training's. Yes, we did lose one of our clients, Mark Brandemuehl, but it wasnt because he did something wrong, it was because he saved an innocent and did something right. I am in Phoenix now and will be having dinner with the brave sole who saved Mark, Tom Hunnicutt either tomorrow or Saturday. For the whole, our clients have a great track record, as do the attendees of the Mooney Summit. Perhaps it is the safety culture mindset of the client and attendee that comes into play, far more than our skillset as educators.

Ted Corsones also runs the MAPASF for recurrent training as you note.

 

[Blue on Top]

I believe that one of the Cirrus training programs is required by at least one of the insurers to even get an insurance policy.

[aviatoreb]

33 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

There is a formal Mooney Transition training program Mooney International uses for new Ultras, Dan, but it is not an official program for used Mooney sales. Used Long body Mooneys sold thru the Mooney sales companies the new owners are typically referred to appropriate transition trainers to complete a competent check out course.

Legal shot down a Mooney Certified instructor program I proposed a few years ago to them, but instead, blessed the formation of Mooney Pros, Inc. with vetted instructors by Mooney and Mooney Pros, Inc. and continue to refer new to them Mooney owners (Used) to me when they are quizzed where to get transition training from when they buy a used Mooney. More often than not, I refer them to one of the Mooney Pro Instructors.

While we are precluded by NDA from using the Mooney training program, we do follow the objectives in used Mooney transition training's. Yes, we did lose one of our clients, Mark Brandemuehl, but it wasnt because he did something wrong, it was because he saved an innocent and did something right. I am in Phoenix now and will be having dinner with the brave sole who saved Mark, Tom Hunnicutt either tomorrow or Saturday. For the whole, our clients have a great track record, as do the attendees of the Mooney Summit. Perhaps it is the safety culture mindset of the client and attendee that comes into play, far more than our skillset as educators.

Ted Corsones also runs the MAPASF for recurrent training as you note.

 

Praise to Mr Hunnicutt.

Sincerely, Erik