Ned Gravel

Centre only told me to look, cancelled my clearance for the RNAV approach, and then cleared me “not below 3500’ on present heading”.because of traffic coming out of my destination drome. So in a shallow descent, we started looking. Looking into the sun, we did not see them until we were about a mile apart. Not certain about NMAC in Canada.

I am also an "in the middle" guy. Black and white questions tend to be skewed towards the extremes. Taking the practice of flight seriously does not necessarily mean that everyone else is out to kill me - although they may not necessarily appreciate what it takes to avoid bending metal. For example, under IFR today in VMC, I was within 50 yrds of a Cessna not squawking or talking. He did not even know I was there and I did not know where he was until it was almost too late. I had to dive to avoid a close encounter of the bad kind. Maybe the close call woke him up. Or not. My advantage? ATC warned me to look for him without being able to tell me his altitude. That warning saved both aircraft. But not flying at all is not an option for me. Mitigating lack of competence in other pilots is why I have an instrument rating providing me with a second set of eyes in nearly all phases of flight. As well, I participate in stick and rudder training such as formation flying training and the Mooney Pilot Proficiency Program so I know what my aircraft can do for me. And that I believe is a much better question.... "What can I do to mitigate the risk caused by pilots who may unknowingly cause me harm?" Then have a bunch of choices. You already have my top three.

OK @Yetti: Just so you know, I have heretofore had nothing but respect for your whimsical and inquisitive style of participation in Mooneyspace discussions. My response to you now is not about formation flying. It is about the conduct of this discussion. So, going out on a limb and based on the assumption that you are not simply trying to stir it up, I will answer the questions that you asked and the comments you made that gave me cause for pause. They appear to be attempts to poke holes in conclusions raised from the personal experiences of pilots who have: - taken the instruction, - executed formation flight manoeuvres, and - become competent in formation flight manoeuvres by demonstrating their application of skills and knowledge to a person who have themselves acquired competence in teaching these skills. I am hoping that you are not attempting to do that. So here goes. First, landing videos in formation. I have already given you two (or three if you include this year's caravan landing of Element D) on page 1 of this thread. I am lead in one and wingman in another and Alan Millet (Tigger) is the wingman in the third. Second, operating in the Wobble box is very normal even for experienced formation pilots. It just gets smaller over time. Your comment about making my passenger "sea" sick (air sick?) was an unfounded one. That person was not a passenger, but a aerobatic demonstration pilot (we had one in each of our aircraft) acting as my safety pilot and formation flying instructor. This is a set of circumstances with which he was quite familiar. Third, while I appreciate your "giving me a break for a bumpy day or Yves' instructor flailing away with the camera" such is neither needed nor appreciated. I would normally only look for this kind of opinion and judgement from a person who has been a safety pilot for any of the formation training flights I have had since 2013. But thank you anyway. Experience can be defined as learning from our own mistakes. Wisdom can be defined as learning from the mistakes of others. Our collective conduct in discussions is a good demonstration of the acquisition of wisdom. Therefore, I will not "return fire" as regards your flying skills. Until I have evidence otherwise, I will assume that you are a proficient and safe pilot. However, acceptable conduct in "station keeping" in Mooneys can only be acquired through experience. I will always welcome questions on the topic because I like the formation flying skill set such training gives me. Comments from those who have also trained are OK because their comments are based on experience, whether they acquired it in a military flying career or from the formal acquisition of the skill as a civilian. From those not experienced in formation flight, questions are welcome and I can respond with a little experience and some small amount of acquired competence. I am not certain how to respond to comments from someone who does not have the experience. Such is my disadvantage in participating in this discussion. This OK?

Should have sniffed this out before. You got me. I bit.

Wobble box, @Yetti - not bobble box. Indicating a wingman's motion within a defined area in three dimensions relative to Lead. This is my second ever practice at formation flying (station-keeping really) in 2013 instruction provided by the members of a local aerobatic demonstration team. Note how I am not entirely stationary with respect to Yves while he is flying Lead. On that day, at that time, that was my Wobble Box. This OK? June 27th 2013 Ned and Yves - YouTube.mp4

The old joke is: If you are not sweating, you are out of position. For @Yetti: How is your Wobble Box?

No encroachment and no comment on the current circumstance under investigation. But I will answer your question. First, I was lead for my element. I tried to keep up to the element in front of me (15 second interval) after FEZTY, but I had to keep it to 125 KIA because my Number 3 (my left wingman) could not push faster than that. So we had way more space between my element and the one in front of me than was planned for. During touchdown, the number 3 should have his wing aligned with Lead's numbers so that they are not forward of that and not really aft of that, but aft is the safe alternative. My number 3 this year was slightly aft until rollout. On his side of the runway and entirely safe according to our procedures. The lateral distance math for this is easy. 150' wide runway. Two aircraft, each with a 36' wingspan, leaves close to 20 feet lateral distance between the wingtips if the aircraft are at the same point on the runway and in the center of their half. This is the closest these aircraft will ever be in a Caravan formation flight - on the rollout after touchdown. If you want to see what really good looks like on touchdown between an element lead and their wingman on the same runway. See these below. The first is me following Sandman to the purple dot in 2015. The second is Tigger following Cowboy (his lead) on the same runway this year. Both are examples of what we want to see. Tigger's is better than mine. I had briefed both my wingmen (using my older video as an example) that this was the prefered outcome and Sticky (my number 3) did really well in executing the manoeuvre in our element. Now when can we expect you to come learn how to do this? Cowboy is one of our safety pilot / instructors and he is from Texas too.

Ohh. This is new and not on my checklist. Do 65's have them as well?

Just a small correction. Our version of the pilots who fly into harm's way for a living belong to the Royal Canadian Air Force (RCAF), not the Canadian Royal Airforce. Not a biggee and not really fussed what one calls our "400 and a quarter mile" gang. I was army. Those that appear on the ground when called are SAR Techs (Search and Rescue Techs). Over half of them are from the army. There is a reason for that.

OP is not fussed. Gossip away.

I used Porter. The other one is about 10% less expensive and a whole pile less convenient for aircraft parking and access to the ferry/tunnel.

Last week I flew into City Centre Airport (Billy Bishop Airport) on Toronto Island (its third name) and when I came to depart later that day, I was faced with a $96.00 (albeit Canadian) landing and parking fee (fine?). Most of us on Mooneyspace are not from around here (Eastern Canada) so this note is to y'all that may wish to land at our version of Meigs Field. It will be expensive and buying gas does not diminish what they charge you. Thought you should know.

My 65 E model (serial 821) is 1608 lbs empty, cg at 46.4, so useful load is 967 lbs. Savings from getting the plane power alternator, Sky Tec 149 NL starter, replacement of Narco 810 and Trimble TNL 2000A with a GNS 480, newer governor. Maybe saved 70 lbs over the 14 years of ownership.

My wife named ours Baby as well. Not my choice, but hey, who am I to argue?

Oh well..... Was just a thought