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Just a quick report that I got my Acclaim Ultra back from annual yesterday from the Factory Service Center. My observations: The work was outstanding and reasonably priced. They kept me informed along the way. They found things that other shops had missed. They test flew the aircraft when they finished. I flew a 1400 mile trip yesterday with no squawks. Kerrville is a nice town. Mooney is very much in business.

Finally some good news. I finally did the break-in flight this afternoon, 2:40 of trouble free flight. The first one since January 27, 2021!

Atlantic Aviation in San Jose, CA oversteered my nose gear when parking my 1994 M20J and broke off one of the steering stops. They wouldn't admit to it, and I couldn't prove it (next time, I'll take photos before it gets moved), so I filed a claim with USAIG and they are taking care of it. But I still had to get it fixed. I called Dan at LASAR and learned that LASAR isn't currently rebuilding nose gears because it no longer has approval from the FAA after moving to Oregon. I next called Frank Crawford at Mooney and found out that Mooney had a gear leg in stock. Greg Lehaman at Advanced Aircraft in Troutdale, OR ordered it for me and had it shipped to my address and scheduled a date to install it. The reason I had it shipped to me is that it comes primed and mine is painted red, so I needed to have it painted. I had some paint that I had matched a while back and Mike Payne at the Port Townsend Aero Museum agreed to paint it for me in his paint booth. Alas, the landing gear leg had a pinhole defect in one of the welds and I had to RMA it back to Mooney. Mooney was currently building a lot of 10 legs which the manufacturing engineer expedited so that I could get one in time to get it painted and keep my date with Advanced. Yesterday, I flew it to Advanced and Greg and his team installed it. The folks at Mooney were really great at helping me get the part, and I can't recommend Greg and his team at Advanced Aircraft highly enough. USAIG has also been very easy to deal with, and is even picking up cost of the gas for my flight to the shop and back. Skip

This is a first in over 20 years of flying my 231. I have had my share of really bad landings but today took the cake. Coming in a bit high and fast, I got sloppy and overconfident and instead of popping the speed brakes (which I actually thought about for a moment) I let the plane float...one bounce, two bounce then down but too far down the runway and too fast so instead of executing a go-around, I stomped on the brakes and was told I was smoking the tire for several hundred feet before it blew pulling the plane to the right. I was fortunate that all I appear to have damaged (beside my ego) was the tire. Warning to all out there, don't get overconfident...no matter how long you have been flying and if you believe you need to go around....GO AROUND!

I think this is due to Global Gravity increase that has occurred over the last 50 years, likely due to man pumping oil from the ground. This increases the pull of gravity. I have noticed this in my personal weight and balance as well as that of my airplane. It is rare to find something unaffected by todays increased gravity. A Time Machine could help. Go back in time and have your avionics shop do a manual weight and balance and the aircraft will magically weigh less. Very satisfying. :-)

This comes up every so often and some make a big deal of it. In reality, thousands of airplanes undergo annual inspection each year without the mechanic flying the airplane afterwards with absolutely no problems. Many great maintainers are not pilots. The airlines don't have the mechanics fly the airplanes after maintenance. I flew for two part 135 operators and the airplanes flew scheduled revenue flights immediately after being returned to service by the maintenance department. The only time a test flight was required -- and this was done by the line pilots, not the mechanics -- was if the controls had been disconnected or a new engine or cylinder installed. Think about it: if you don't trust the mechanic, do you want him or her to crash your airplane? Get a mechanic you trust and do a good preflight and go flying. Skip

The whole topic of T&G landings here on Mooneyspace is interesting. Here's my takeaway: Those who feel T&G's are unsafe, for whatever reason, should NOT do touch and go landings.....There is a reason you feel as you do. Pay attention! To all those who have successfully engaged in such and believe them safe,....carry on.

Finished it about 80 hours in ..

$200 seems a bargain compared to my lawyer and my dentist rates.

Well, another great transformation on a K model! She is ready to go and get back in the air!!!! What a transformation and beautiful panel she is!!!!

I'm based at ERV and this was in the monthly airport newsletter - Mooney International Corporation Update Mr. Jonny Pollack, CEO of Mooney International Corporation, presented an update on the company’s current operations and strategic objectives to the Joint Airport Board on April 26, 2023. Mr. Pollack reported the company is currently focusing on aviation parts as a “stepping stone” to a return to full sized aircraft manufacturing. “In the short term,” Mr. Pollack explained, “we plan to become a self-sustaining aviation parts company. In the long term, we’re manufacturing airplanes again, but with a more solid foundation that can weather economic uncertainties.“ Since Mooney International has a sizeable footprint on the airfield, and an economic impact on Kerrville-Kerr County development, meeting attendees asked if there was potential to lease portions of the facility to third parties. Mr. Pollack stated the property’s value was in the company’s manufacturing certificate. The company recently passed the FAA Part 145 Service Center audit and has plans to secure contracts for manufacturing specialized defense avionics and related components. Mr. Ed Marin, Chief Operational Office, pointed out that potential growth of the company is tied to sustainable and long-term development within the aviation industry, including the potential for defense contracts.

It's been awhile since I've made a "sponsored" post. I'll take this opportunity to make a write-up on the current insurance market. If you attend MooneyMAX, you'll probably hear me talk a bit more about some of these things. Forces affecting rates New Market Capacity With rising aviation insurance rates, it seems there is eagerness from insurance companies to get into aviation or expand their current aviation product lines. This applies downward pressure on rates. Beacon Aviation Insurance, which has historically been known for aviation worker's compensation, has expanded their product offerings into aircraft hull & liability and aviation general liability. They're ramping up right now and we believe they'll be a strong force in personal aircraft insurance this year. A new underwriting company has been formed: Eiger Insurance Services. Mission Underwriting Managers is starting an aviation underwriting segment of their business. Market Capacity At Risk Any loss of market capacity has the chance of pushing rates higher. In the case below, I don't anticipate significant ramifications for most Mooney owners. Hallmark Insurance Group experienced major losses involved in their commercial auto insurance product line. Their A.M. Best ratings have been downgraded twice and now ratings have been withdrawn. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/am-best-withdraws-credit-ratings-201100756.html This is an insurer that would sometimes insure students in Mooneys. Most Mooney owners would not be insured with Hallmark. I think many of the other insurers will be able to pick up Hallmark's aviation business. Claim Inflation This is on going concern. Claim inflation continues to outpace inflation. Repair bills are very high. Lower value aircraft are at higher risk for being totaled with minor damage or gear-up landings. Large judgements on the liability side could cause insurers to rethink offering high limits of liability for general liability and corporate & commercial aircraft. The typically low liability limits offered on personal aircraft policies could be an attractive market for aviation insurers to keep their risks low. Claim Inflation - Forces rates up Desire for lower coverage limit risks could put downward pressure on personal aircraft rates if insurers seek to insure risks with lower limits of liability.

I got a sneak peek today!

So My KFC-150 with the original HSI and ADI has always been reliable except my ADI would lean 5 degrees to the right even though the autopilot would fly straight and level but the NAV function never worked right. It would goto 30 degrees off of the course and then hold that offset which was annoying but I would just use heading and steer for crosswinds myself. Eventually with the ADI slowly erecting and never shaking out I sent the ADI out to get overhauled. When I got it back the ADI was great; shakes out nicely on startup and is very quick to align within seconds of engine start, but the autopilot would occasionally not hold altitude and I would get a little yoke pump every now and again which was a new issue I never had before the overhaul. I tried cleaning the yoke shafts as others have commented on the shaft sticking can cause the yoke to pump but that did not clear up the issue. Jake from Bevan aviation that frequents this site stated that after any overhaul of the ADI you need to match it to the autopilot. I did not realize this was even an issue or possibility but I scheduled an appointment and flew up there one early morning to arrive right at opening time at 8am. They took out the KFC-150 and ADI and put them on the bench and proceeded to match them. One of the big things Jake noticed was my roll steering output was way below specs I think he said it was 2 or 3 volts when it needed a 5 volt signal. He turned up the voltage adjusted the gains and reinstalled the head unit and ADI. This was right after lunch and I was headed home by 1:30pm. I immediately noticed a crisper response and feel to the autopilot and it has captured and held altitude consistently with no yoke pump ever since. but the huge added bonus is my NAV function works correctly now. Who knew?!? even the previous owner had given up on getting the nav function to work and thought it was a loose or broken connection wire but it was just the ADI not matched to the autopilot. I don't have GPSS steering but the Garmin 530W does give crosswind corrections so I no longer have to do minor heading corrections like I did with the heading bug. So if you are experiencing an small minute altitude oscillations known as yoke pump and you have cleaned the shafts and they feel smooth when moving them it might just be your ADI and autopilot need a match tuneup.

Is it always the same levers or do you like to mix it up for variety?

The controllers generally advertise the ILS because the assumption is that everyone can use that while not everyone has LPV capability. However, the pilot gets to select the approach, not the controller, and they will happily give you whatever approach you want to the active runway. I have even requested and been cleared for approaches in the opposite direction of the active when I didn't want to circle and could accept the tailwind. You have to ask for that early because the approach controller has to coordinate that with the local controller, but they are happy to do it if they can. I prefer the LPV over the ILS because the workload is lower. All I have to do is put the GFC 500 in APR mode when cleared, rather than tuning, identifying, checking that the GTN switched from GPS to VLOC. Also, the missed approaches are often simpler with RNAV. It probably varies by approach design, but I've never found any substantial differences in vectoring for RNAV vs ILS approaches. Skip

I would look over your head.

On Sunday, 5/21, had a lovely, well executed flight from Houston (6R3) to Tampa (KSPG) - 5 hrs, talked ATC into some shortcuts. Left at 6:30 am which helped to avoid summer buildups in Florida. KSPG is my fav airport in Tampa Bay Area.

Hi All, Coming to market is an outstanding, fast 1964 E model. This aircraft has been owned by a two pilot family since 1976 (One a WWII fighter pilot and the other a long-time Fed Ex captain) and has been very well cared for. It is in excellent shape mechanically and has a basic IFR-capable panel. In 2020, the owner Harry Moyer set the Guinness World Record for oldest active pilot in this airplane, shortly after which Harry's son Ted became the primary caretaker of the airplane. Ted has unfortunately passed, so the aircraft is now for sale. 88R has many speed mods, and actually served as a test aircraft for many of LASAR's mods as a result of Paul Loewen and Harry's longtime friendship. It's certainly faster than the '66 E that I've personally come to know. The airplane has complete logs and is currently undergoing an annual inspection in San Luis Obispo, CA. Now would be a great time to perform a pre-purchase inspection. So far I have only advertised on Mooneyspace. After the annual is complete, I will be posting the ad on the other major sites. Complete specifications are listed below, and additional photos of the aircraft and logs are coming. I've tried to include as much information as possible, but if there are any additional questions please reach out to my father, Mike, who is handling the sale on behalf of Harry Moyer. His contact information is at the bottom of the list. 1964 Mooney M20E ‘Super 21’ Registration: N6688R Serial # 431 Price: $76,000 - All funds to be handled via escrow Link to photos and logs (Additional aircraft photos will be added following the annual inspection) Airframe: 5753 TT Engine: 1571 SMOH by Western Skyways September 2000 – 1041 STOH Ly-Con overhauled cylinders installed 3045.1, 2008 - Lycoming IO-360 A1A Propeller: 1571 SPOH, 1024 SNEW Hub – Hartzell HC-C2YK-1B F7666A2 (B Hub installed 2008 / No recurring AD) Max Gross Takeoff Weight: 2575 pounds Empty Weight: 1621.34 pounds Useful Load: 953.66 pounds Total/Usable Fuel Capacity: 52/50 gallons Empty CG: 44.87 inches General: Mostly original, FAST classic Mooney with manual landing gear Next annual inspection due: May, 2023 World record holder - Flown by Harry Moyer, oldest active pilot (No longer flying) SB 208B complied with 05/2023 (And in prior years) Flight controls rigged by LASAR November 2017 Airframe treated with ACF anti-corrosion formula April 2019 Fuel tanks stripped and resealed July 2007 by Willmar Air Service (Now ‘Weep No More’) Aircraft landed gear up in 1970 - Well repaired and documented Avionics: Electronics International UBG-16 engine monitor with oil temp, bus voltage, amps EI FP-5L Fuel Flow Instrument L3 Lynx NGT-9000 ADS-B In/out transponder Dual Narco MK12D Nav/Comms King KN 64 DME Narco CP 136 TSO Audio Panel Brittain Autopilot Installed, INOP Additional Equipment: MANY Speed mods - Aircraft occasionally acted as a test bed for Paul Loewen during his time at LASAR Flap Gap Seals Aileron Lower Gap Seals Brake Caliper Rotation Dorsal Fin Vertical Seal Tail Root Horizontal Fairing Wing Root Leading Edge Fairing One Piece Windshield (NOT the 201 windshield - retains avionics access) Single-piece, smooth belly Cowl Enclosure Fairing Rudder/elevator Hinge Covers LASAR Steering Horn installed December 2017 GAMIjectors Zeftronics Voltage Regulator Overhauled exhaust January 2020 406 MHZ ELT Sky-tec Starter Exterior: Painted by Art Craft Paint in Santa Maria, CA February 2017 Interior: Basic gray cloth in good shape Aircraft located in San Luis Obispo, CA (KSBP) Contact: Mike Kunde Hangar 46 Aviation Hangar46Mojo (at) gmail (dot) com (805) 215-8914 (Call and leave a message, please)

Two suggestions: Forward slips with flaps in the K and later are fine as long as not done to slower than 85 kts w/ full flaps. (There has never been a concern about slipping J’s and earlier airframes.) Plus there will be plenty of warning if you're getting too slow in the form of aerodynamic buffeting in the tail horizontal stabilizer/elevator to encourage you decrease back pressure. Secondly, its time to go around if we can't land within at least the first third 1/3 of the runway. Its clearly no longer a stabilized approach and should be aborted and a requirement of any professional pilot (91.175); and should be for us too. Go arounds are good practice; especially developing a habit aborting un-stabilized approaches. Note you can't really tell where the plane is going to land till you have the plane slowed to final approach speed of 70-75 kts, so if unable to get it trimmed to final approach speed by 200' AGL and also high, its also time to go around.

I realized that I mistyped the date, it last flew January 2022, not 2021. No video of the flight, but here’s the FlightAware.

I think you are missing something important. The point of the commercial maneuvers is to demonstrate planning, judgement and mastery of flight. The maneuvers are designed to require varying airspeeds, control forces, and attitudes so that they are difficult to perform by rote method. On the power off 180, once the engine is idled, you have to plan your flight path, configuration and airspeed to arrive at your landing spot. Wind will be a big factor. Every one is a little different. The only way to develop the skill to do this consistently is with a lot a practice. You might want to put the gear down immediately so you don’t risk forgetting it. But you should experiment with the other variables until it becomes second nature. Try some without using flaps at all. Try being too high on purpose and see what effect the flaps have as well as slipping. Eventually you will become very comfortable with what the airplane can and cannot do. Skip

You don’t know all the facts in regards to the downlock blocks. Please stop acting as you do. The friendly aviation administration has not replied to my response and subsequent questions to them challenging their assertions from June of last year. I don’t know where this stands with them, but do know that I’m disputing their claims. If and when this is resolved, I’ll be happy to give you all the details so you can be informed instead of posting your personal opinion. I don’t mean to be rude, but these comments are irritating when I and a few others know the facts. David

I had @aviatoreb stop for an overnight on his way to Portland OR yesterday for business. It was refreshing and REWARDING to finally meet a Mooney Space friend of probably 15 years in person. It was a great visit and I look forward to more face to face meetings in the future!! Hoping to meet MORE Mooney Space members moving forward!! Tom

A little bit after I landed at Downtown KC Airport, this Mooney did a touch and go - I had my camera out as the storm behind the airport was pretty cool and lit well... So I grabbed the Mooney too.

Although our maintainers don’t do a test flight, they should be doing run-up checks including leak checks will even the log entry will often reflect this. What i think the big mistake many pilots do is show up on a weekend day to fly their bird home after annual. Arriving after the shop is closed isn’t a smart move if you do find an issue or question doing the preflight. The smart pilot though will do a short return to service flight above the airport - depending on the work done and make sure all is functioning before departing into IFR conditions. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is the Annual even complete without him completing a post maintenance run up? How is he verifying his work? Without a run up how does he know the mags are correctly timed, without looking afterwards how does he know they aren’t leaking or falling off? In my shop we do a pre maintenance run up, a post maintenance run up with cowls off to make sure there are no leaks and that things we work on have been checked, then a final run up ultimately to a full power run.

It is usually caused by your idle setup not being quite right.

Not at all, the only winners will be the cheapskates that get another generation of parts swappers at a discount price. Which is why we're in the crisis we're in now. Real A&P schools teach all the subject matter, including the theory behind electricity, structures, and avionics. If you want highly trained, highly productive technicians, they HAVE to come from a quality school, not from an apprentice program that provides cheap labor-in-training for shops that will do the bare minimum to get them a certificate. You get NONE of the theoretical training, while working at the practical experience level as an apprentice in a shop. So while we would get more A&P's, they will be tire changers, parts swappers, and not the well rounded technicians needed to work on the latest airplanes with sophisticated electronics.

On behalf of your Mooney Summit Board of Directors I am happy to announce we have scheduled Mooney Summit IX for October 6-7 2023. Alex Gertsen and myself have joined the Mooney Summit Board and are planning the next Summit. We are a little late to the game this year but we will work hard to deliver the same great content and experiences of the past Summits. Mike, Ron, and Rick have been instrumental in helping Alex and I with getting everything lined up. Thank you guys! The event will again be at Peter O. Knight (KTPF) in Tamp FL. This year we will be going back to the Friday - Saturday schedule. With Friday being airport day, and Saturday will be the seminars and banquet. Currently we are going over potential contracts for hotels and the seminar space. Once these are finalized we will open up registration. We have scheduled the Saturday night banquet to be held at American Social on Harbor Island! I'm looking forward to seeing you all again as well as meeting many more Mooney owners/pilots. This year will be the 9th year of the Summit working to "Better the Breed"! Registration should open up in the next week or two. If you have any questions feel free to reach out to Alex or myself. Cheers, Dan Bass

My kind of crowd! Pretty great turn out, considering the weather was pretty scuzzy this morning Even got to meet a couple of MS’ers including @0TreeLemur and @201Steve who despite owning N201ER is not to be confused with the MSer with that handle. I drove - I’d still be digging myself out of the mud if I had gone to the airstrip today. Kudos to the Cole Aviation crowd for putting it together. The food and hangar flying was fantastic.

That's not a flat spot; This is a flat spot:

I’m going to throw out one more technique that’s different than these are usually taught. We used this for emergency engine out landing in the USAF T-6. Pick your aim point while on downwind, usually ~500’ prior to your touchdown point but depends on winds. Configure with only gear abeam aim point. Turn base a couple seconds later. Now here’s the difference… hold that aim point no matter what (except for a low speed limit, say 80mph). So you hold the nose down to “fly into the impact point (aim point)” and note your airspeed. You’re hoping to see something just above your desired final airspeed and increasing (slowly). As long as you hold the aim point, you can use airspeed as your primary energy indicator. If it’s increasing, use flaps, slip or elongate your pattern. If it’s steady, do nothing. It takes a little practice to be ok with this technique.

Far better to have a gear up landing with FAA approved worn out parts which are no longer available, than avoid the accident with a new superior part. Safety first!

Self-publishing content can definitely have its drawbacks. Whenever I think of the number of kids today who get home from school and stare at YouTube (and TikTok and all the other related sites) it makes me sad about the future.

Let's see, who are we going to listen to? Someone who has used the Factory Service Center and picked up his airplane this week? Or someone that likes to make a negative jab at Mooney? They have a lean crew doing an excellent job. Leave a message and they will get back to you. Send an e-mail and they will return it. This comes from my own recent experience with them over the last year and a half. The people there are doing an excellent job of keeping the fleet flying by making parts. Also the Factory Service Center is doing a great job of servicing airplanes. If you don't want to use the Factory Service Center, don't. But if you haven't been there personally like @Brandt has, why make those negative comments? How is that constructive?

I hit a new milestone today. After many years of renting hangars and building hangars for others, I'm finally building for my own! 70x70 with a 62x18 higher power door.

To reinforce what was just said, know the difference between hitting “activate approach” on your gps and hitting “approach” mode on your autopilot mode. They are different things and need to be used at the correct times.

I learned right here on MS that these can come loose and replacement was expensive. So every flight I check them. Sure enough one day one was loose, so I ordered the proper adhesive, and re-glued it. A total non-event due to learning from others.

Install a quick drain and you don’t need to remove the lower cowl.

I got my second type rating (IA-Jet, aka Westwind) with a gentleman who was the former Rockwell factory pilot. Very interesting guy who had - no lie, I saw his cert - 27 type ratings. Amazing teacher and pilot. Anyway, we did T&Gs in training, much to my shock and awe, in the jet, at real airports. Learned a lot, was a better pilot, passed the checkride. Any and all risk should be assessed and mitigated as needed, and where it can’t, make a new plan. I’ve rightseated with pilots with shockingly bad habits and zero risk awareness, much less mitigation. If your policy is no T&Gs, kudos to you for your assessment and mitigation. But I’m not sold T&Gs are *always* unacceptable.

Sometimes things just magically start working again.

I always like to have some fuel in each tank. That is part of your redundant systems. If you run a tank dry, you have no options. I switch every 1/2 hour. I still have an analog stopwatch clock. If the minute hand is on the left, I’m on the left tank, if the minute hand is on the right side of the clock, I’m on right tank.

They may be there but I have never seen either of those issues. Coming from the departure side of an airport, I have seen no difference inbeing vectored to intercept final; whether ILS or RNAV. (From the arrival side, if it's already on my route of flight, I'll happily ask for "the RNAV X from FXNME.") Nor have I seen a 15-20 nm difference between the missed. Do you have any examples.? Color me, "Approach. request the RNAV" although I'm happy to do an ILS too.

So I thought I'd come back to this now that I've passed my Private check ride in my 1963 C. Just to recap, I had 20 hours in my log book when I bought the C in August. 10 months, 4 CFIs, 3 weather delays and 176 hours later, I passed in a check ride that took 2.5 hours from start to finish, including the oral. A lot of my hours (probably 50) were real XC trips from Kerrville to Atlanta, a few to Dallas, several to CC, etc. for things I needed to go do or lunch with my dad, some of it solo, some of it with the CFI and I've flown 57 hours since my first check ride date was cancelled, so I was really ready with 50 - 60 hours of training in the Mooney (plus the previous 20 in the 172 and Cherokee). Getting a private in a Mooney is totally doable. Yes, I had a few hard landings early on, including some bounces but, once I learned to manage the energy, that stopped. The hardest part was learning how to slow the plane down and realizing that although it flies fast, it lands just as slow as a trainer. After figuring that out, there really isn't that much more to manage and the muscle memory comes quickly. So, if you're considering buying a Mooney before you have your private and finishing your training in it, I say go for it. I'm super glad I did.

Well, I was planning on going to Placerville yesterday when half way there on a descent I felt a jolt, looked around and the engine monitor showed #1 flat - no combustion. I initiated a controlled descent looked around and found Lodi as the closest option. I was about 5000 feet and maybe 10 miles out, I still had some power. As I was descending #1 CHT comeback and EGT was very high. I declared an emergency on 121.5 and got to the airport safe, called the number and they asked me a few questions and that was it. After words I called my mechanic he suspected a clogged injector so I painfully restarted the plane (my mooney it's never hard to start even super hot) did a run up, checked fine all cylinders firing, it felt a little rough and the engine temp was very high (90f OAT). Anyway I gave it a go after doing 2 runups and 2 fast taxing on the runway and after taking off it felt soft on power, I was pulling 40inc and 2700 rpm but wasn't claiming right and it felt rough. I landed it and started uber hopping back to Watsonville. perhaps a stuck intake valve? Thank you Gabe

I am late to this, but I have had almost the exact scenario. In almost 25 years at my airline I have never lied to the passengers, but have been accused of it. They have no concept that just because it is not raining at grandmas right now that the airspace around grandma can be restricted due to weather 100 miles away, therefore I am a liar. I also work with many wonderful flight attendants and pilots. Some very few have not been so good but eventually get weeded out. There are also self absorbed, entitlement oriented and rude passengers. People are people and I try to extend grace because some days I need it extended to me.

Note that in Don’s video the oil and CHT gauges haven’t moved off the peg, the engine is hardly heat soaked and hot. Anyone could start an engine thirty seconds after it was shut down.

Yes, I wasn't happy with the way WS was being developed and given that it wasn't scientifically valid and had other issues that I found to be dangerous, I developed my own progressive web app that uses your personal wx mins so you can quantify your risk for icing, turbulence, ceiling, vis, wind, thunderstorms...since we know that flying is all about identifying and quantifying risk...none of the heavyweight apps will do this automatically. Moreover, WS relies on a single model (GFS) using relative humidity which is a horrible and unscientific way to determine clouds. It also now uses the NBM for it's station-based forecasts - the NBM isn't ready for prime time as of yet in my opinion...the LAMP MOS is much, much better especially for ceiling, vis and wind so I don't know why he changed from LAMP to NBM. LAMP has been around for nearly two decades whereas NBM has just started to cut its teeth. Depending on the forecast element (e.g., ceiling, icing, etc.) I utilize a dozen or more models to make that forecast. Relying on a single model is not a good strategy in my opinion. And for the route, WS uses the "nearest" station which can be 20 or more miles away. My app uses 2.5 km resolution data which is much more accurate especially in mountainous terrain where stations are sparse and often local conditions are extremely important.