The evils of the Touch and Go

[RobertGary1]

Just now, ryoder said:

It's not that touch and goes are unsafe.  They just expose the pilot to additional risk.  It should be ok to discuss risk factors.

Or I would say that flying itself"unsafe" and that our concern is not safety but risk management. I believe that touch and goes create an increased risk of gear up vs full stops. I understand not everyone agrees with that. 

I will say that in addition to the actual gear ups I've seen on the go after a tng  I've stopped students from grabbing the gear handle after landing. In a full stop the squat switch protects them but on a touch and go it does not. 

-Robert, cfii 

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

I think we have to be careful with invulnerability though. I'll wait until I can't maintain a medical before I say "that will never be me". The instructor who checked him out has 55,000 hours, most of it instruction   (Fsdo believes he may be the most hours in the district, he also holds 141 DE privileges and a 135 certificate for his business). 

Tower called a jet behind the pilot. Pilot said "ok I'll just make it a touch and go then (had been doing stop and goes, was after dark)". Next transmission was tower "we see some sparks, everything ok"   He had raised the gear on the go and settled back on it  

-Robert 

I've never said that it won't happen to me.  But if I ever raised the gear instead of the flaps I'd have to accept people calling me stupid, and I wouldn't be able to disagree with them.  

My gear control is a knob in the shape of a wheel and my flap control is a wedge, quite a different feel in my fingers and they are nowhere near each other.

Clarence

[RobertGary1]

4 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

I've never said that it won't happen to me.  But if I ever raised the gear instead of the flaps I'd have to accept people calling me stupid, and I wouldn't be able to disagree with them.  

My gear control is a knob in the shape of a wheel and my flap control is a wedge, quite a different feel in my fingers and they are nowhere near each other.

Clarence

True.   I would immediately own up to it as well and take my lumps; as painful as they would be. But if you do it on a full stop you'll be ok because the squat switch will prevent a retraction. 

-Robert 

Edited September 21, 2017 by RobertGary1

[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

I've never said that it won't happen to me.  But if I ever raised the gear instead of the flaps I'd have to accept people calling me stupid, and I wouldn't be able to disagree with them.  

My gear control is a knob in the shape of a wheel and my flap control is a wedge, quite a different feel in my fingers and they are nowhere near each other.

Clarence

But it does happen,  and I've had experienced pilots attempt to grab the gear handle to do it while I'm flying with them. One actually pulled the switch out and almost moved it. .  But since I've thoroughly briefed that let's not  touch any switches on the runway that has not happened since. You can do what you want but I never move a control or switch unless I visually identify it. However if you're looking at the switch you're not  looking out the window are going down the runway at 60 knots when the airplane is light on the gear and rather squirrelly.  In a 172 sure no problem. Preselect flaps to t/o and firewall it. But this isn't that. And neither is a go-around. 

Edited September 22, 2017 by jetdriven

[aviatoreb]

I find it interesting this one keeps rolling.  I am STRONGLY in the don't do touch and goes in MY airplane.  That's my operation.  I think it is a legit operation to do so, but I feel like in the long run for my own operation its asking for it.  Its not paticularly dangerous to gear up while rolling down the runway, so I am not worried if that's what you want to do....haha - anyway not kidding around Ill do what I want and you guys do what you want and this is one where we really don't need to agree but it is interesting hearing each others opinions - and we do seem to hold them strongly.

Edited September 22, 2017 by aviatoreb

[carusoam]

3 hours ago, steingar said:

At one point I asked Ron Wattanja, who I feel is probably the foremost expert on GA accidents, whether J-bar Mooneys geared up as often as their electric brethren.  The answer was yes they do.  The one thing I forgot to ask Ron was numbers, i.e. how many J-bar Mooneys vs. electric.  There are more C's flying than all the other makes combined I think, so it is a relevant question.  If the J-bar Mooneys have the same rate of gear up, but there are tons more of them their rate could be quite a bit smaller.  Anyone have the skinny on this issue?

The skinny is...

1) Distraction is such a powerful force, that is so hard to recognize, while it is happening...

2) The GU landing can happens when

• stress level is increased
• pilotis ill, or medicated
• pilot is tired
• pilot's brain gets overloaded
• pilot's memory of recent details gets improperly overwritten

3) Why a GU landing occurs on TnGs...

• it is the same as any other landing, with an added time crunch.  
• Memories are squeezed together in a short period of time.
• A simple memory of putting the gear down will be dangerously fresh in the mind. But, it's from the last landing. Not this landing.

4) How to avoid the distraction error...

• check list
• gumps
• On final...
•    Manual gear: green light and bar up and locked...
•    electric gear: green light and green spot on the floor...

If you rely on memory, and skip these steps, this whole thread gets repeated...

keep in mind some brains are better at this then others.  You won't know how good your brain is at this skill...

Aging and injuries, don't make this easier...

Ever walk into a room, and can't remember why you are there? The Brain dropped the ball on you...

 

It isn't illegal to be human, yet...

PP thoughts only, not an insurance guy.

Best regards,

-a-

Reviewing a couple of the youtubes...

The single engine, GU landing in France is classic.  Two brains distracted simultaneously.  The gear warning horn is screaming don't land me.... crunch.

[johncuyle]

3 hours ago, jetdriven said:

  In a 172 sure no problem. Preselect flaps to t/o and firewall it. But this isn't that. And neither is a go-around. 

This is actually an interesting point. I don't do them in my 231, but there are a few specific reasons for it. The first is concern for overboost versus insufficient power. The throttle requires a lot of attention. This isn't a big deal by itself, though. I'm addition to that there's the amount of forward pressure on the yoke required if you don't re trim. Also not a big problem by itself. There's also that the electric trim is very slow so on a touch and go versus a stop and go you won't have time to reset the trim. Then there are two issues specific to my plane: trim sticks in the full up position and my electric trim switch is shot. These issues combined mean I need my right hand on both the throttle and the trim wheel. That means I need two right hands, one for the throttle and one for the trim. Both the switch and the sticking SB are being addressed at annual right now, so I'll be back down to needing one right hand. Except, the flaps.

When I learned to fly in J models I flew two different ones and the flaps worked different. There was the bad version, which I have in my plane, where there were two fixed detents and one spring loaded position. Up was up, middle was don't move and down extended the flaps while you held it down. In the good version there were three fixed detents. Up was fly, middle was takeoff and down was land. I think with the trim fixed I'll be more willing to do touch and go landings in my plane and go around will be much easier. But both would be easier and safer with the up/takeoff/land set and forget flaps than the style I currently have because I have to touch the flaps at least twice in the takeoff roll and I really, really want to keep my hand on the throttle. Can the flap switch be converted over to the set and forget type? It's just a much better design.

Edited September 22, 2017 by johncuyle

[Cyril Gibb]

10 hours ago, johncuyle said:

..there are two issues specific to my plane: trim sticks in the full up position and my electric trim switch is shot. These issues combined mean I need my right hand on both the throttle and the trim wheel.

Those mechanical deficiencies would also be an issue on a short final go-around or a touch and go due to a deer/dog/aircraft appearing on the runway.  As has been mentioned elsewhere, they are safety of flight issues.  I probably wouldn't recommend admitting that on an open forum.

[johncuyle]

7 hours ago, Cyril Gibb said:

Those mechanical deficiencies would also be an issue on a short final go-around or a touch and go due to a deer/dog/aircraft appearing on the runway.  As has been mentioned elsewhere, they are safety of flight issues.  I probably wouldn't recommend admitting that on an open forum.

One of the Mooneys I trained in had inop electric trim, and the sticking trim is common enough that there's an SB about it. Not sure why it would be a bad idea to admit my plane suffered from slow/fiddly trim and a common service issue when neither are airworthiness issues and both are fixed anyway.

[steingar]

23 hours ago, carusoam said:

The skinny is...

1) Distraction is such a powerful force, that is so hard to recognize, while it is happening...

The skinny I sought was not why human beings become distracted. Odds are I know more on that particular subject than any of you lot, since I can and do read the current research in neurophysiology and cognition. But that's another story entirely.

The skinny I was after was simply the number of J-bar Mooneys versus their eletificated brethren.

[tigers2007]

I experienced my first Mooney bounce yesterday. Halfway into my hour flight back home, I realized that I did not have my regular set of eyeglasses with me and only my prescription sunglasses. About 15 minutes after sunset I was just outside of the airfield. For some reason, my GTN radio clicks would not trigger the pilot controlled lighting. My approach was good but this resulted in two bounces. I immediately gave full power and went around. My second landing attempt was actually the best landing I have ever made. I'm glad the CFI who gave me my initial training drove the concept into me that if I bounce hard like that to immediate go around and try again. It's amazing how fast my C/D model wanted to climb back into the air.


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[larrynimmo]

I am a student pilot...I own an M20J...I do touch and gos....from my perspective they are safe for 4,000 ft runway or longer.  even if you are using full flaps, you can still take off with this plane.  I agree with others, no changes should be made while transitioning.  95% of the time I do a touch and go, I am back in the air in less than 2,000 ft of runway.

When you touch down, there is still a tremendous amount of flight energy in the forward moving plane...opening the throttle and the plane will almost instantly rotate.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

So, the other day I tried taking off with the trim all the way up and all the way down. 

They are both manageable. The plane has enough elevator to deal with both scenarios. They both take decisive action and a bit of strength. The best thing to do in either case is abort the takeoff if it is unexpected. But if you are out of runway you can do it without much trouble. 

In the nose down situation you will likely hurt the plane, in the nose up situation you will likely hurt yourself if you don't do it right.

[HRM]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

So, the other day I tried taking off with the trim all the way up and all the way down. 

They are both manageable. The plane has enough elevator to deal with both scenarios. They both take decisive action and a bit of strength. The best thing to do in either case is abort the takeoff if it is unexpected. But if you are out of runway you can do it without much trouble. 

 

Shortly after I got my E I flew out to T78 with it's 3800' runway. After enjoying the cheap, self-serve avgas, I took off. Jeez! What was wrong with this plane. Not super at all. Then I realized that I had failed to trim for take-off. Yes, the plane is super, can't say the same for the pilot. Once I trimmed she took off like the rocket she is.

Anyway, a T&G in a Mooney is fine if conditions are right. I am getting too old to risk it and what you gain from doing them is not quite worth it.

[aviatoreb]

2 hours ago, larrynimmo said:

I am a student pilot...I own an M20J...I do touch and gos....from my perspective they are safe for 4,000 ft runway or longer.  even if you are using full flaps, you can still take off with this plane.  I agree with others, no changes should be made while transitioning.  95% of the time I do a touch and go, I am back in the air in less than 2,000 ft of runway.

When you touch down, there is still a tremendous amount of flight energy in the forward moving plane...opening the throttle and the plane will almost instantly rotate.

 

It's not the length of the runway that has everyone worried.  It's the possibility of flirting with a gear up.

[ArtVandelay]

It's not the length of the runway that has everyone worried.  It's the possibility of flirting with a gear up.

Longer runway gives you more time, so you don't feel rushed.

[steingar]

12 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

So, the other day I tried taking off with the trim all the way up and all the way down. 

They are both manageable. The plane has enough elevator to deal with both scenarios. They both take decisive action and a bit of strength. The best thing to do in either case is abort the takeoff if it is unexpected. But if you are out of runway you can do it without much trouble. 

In the nose down situation you will likely hurt the plane, in the nose up situation you will likely hurt yourself if you don't do it right.

I took off with landing flaps and trim completely b accident a couple weeks ago.  Bad me, pile it on.  By the time I was done stowing the gear (J-bar) I was three mph away from a departure stall.

That said, I was also a thousand feet in the air.  Damn thing takes off with some oomph on those settings.  So I think a departure stall might not have been that dangerous in this situation, since I had plenty of room to recover.  Gets your attention, though.

[HRM]

4 hours ago, teejayevans said:

Longer runway gives you more time, so you don't feel rushed.

This supports my contention "if conditions are right". So then you might contemplate a T&G checklist, just so everything is 'right' before and while you do one. Now you wonder if it is worth it.

If you are a young ace, go for it. The reason the luck bucket is so full when you are young is because your RT is fast, not because of magic. 

[N201MKTurbo]

26 minutes ago, steingar said:

Bad me, pile it on.  

OK,

Just because you are out of trim is no excuse to lose control of airspeed.

[salty]

35 minutes ago, steingar said:

I took off with landing flaps and trim completely b accident a couple weeks ago.  Bad me, pile it on.  By the time I was done stowing the gear (J-bar) I was three mph away from a departure stall.

That said, I was also a thousand feet in the air.  Damn thing takes off with some oomph on those settings.  So I think a departure stall might not have been that dangerous in this situation, since I had plenty of room to recover.  Gets your attention, though.

60 mph on departure? yeah, that sounds pretty bad.The yoke goes in even with up trim set.....

[Mooneymite]

Great story about an "out-of-trim" takeoff....read about how a real pro handled it because he understood the aerodynamics and design of his aircraft.

http://www.tristar500.net/articles/flight1080.pdf

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, Mooneymite said:

Great story about an "out-of-trim" takeoff....read about how a real pro handled it because he understood the aerodynamics and design of his aircraft.

http://www.tristar500.net/articles/flight1080.pdf

Jeesus... I would have had a lot of poo come out.

Edited October 4, 2017 by jaylw314

[steingar]

3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

OK,

Just because you are out of trim is no excuse to lose control of airspeed.

Agreed completely.  The reason I took my eyes off the ball is I've had lots of trouble with the Johnson bar, in part at least to my diminutive stature.  Thus I look down to ensure its security.  By the time I looked up I was at 60 mph.   Yes, the yoke went forward immediately, followed by adjustments to the trim and flaps.  My bad, I admit freely.   Distraction is a sneaky bastard that bites when you're least expecting it.

I suspect I could overcome these forces if I had to do a T&G.  So far none of the arguments in this thread have convinced me this is a good idea as a matter of course.  Too many things can happen that close to the ground.  My take, for what very little its worth.

On participant likened T&G's to  go-arounds.  I respectfully differ.  When you put in the power in a go-around you are in the air.  You still have flying energy, and you aren't in close proximity to anything if you're doing it right.  When doing a T&G you're on the runway, in close proximity to taxi lights and Odin only knows what else.  Not saying that keeping from hitting these things while you reconfigure your aircraft rolling down the runway is a superhuman feat of derring-do.  But it is different that being in midair.

I suppose I should offer apologies for contributing to this very contentious subject.

 

[RobertGary1]

3 hours ago, HRM said:

This supports my contention "if conditions are right". So then you might contemplate a T&G checklist, just so everything is 'right' before and while you do one. Now you wonder if it is worth it.

If you are a young ace, go for it. The reason the luck bucket is so full when you are young is because your RT is fast, not because of magic. 

If I have that much runway with my students we just do a stop and go and use a checklist before going again. No reason to rush a touch and go and accidently grab the gear handle. As always before touching anything bring the plane to a stop and take a deep cleansing breath. One airport near here is 11,000 feet.

-Robert

Edited October 4, 2017 by RobertGary1

[Andy95W]

Dear God, this has truly become a Zombie thread- a nonstop, slow moving monster whose only goal is to eat my brain.