Seat tracks

[Captnmack]

Just a quick survey: Who all has had to replace Seat tracks? Not near as easy as a Cessna..

[carusoam]

Seat tracks get a lot of wear...  when the plastic rollers break without being noticed or replaced...

To get wear, the metal/metal contact is mostly required. Hard to get metal/metal contact with solid plastic rollers in place...

Often the seat tracks get additional holes put in them.

Does that help?  Do you need a set?  We have a guy...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic.

Best regards,

-a-

[jetdriven]

The rollers are phenolic and wear in an hourglass shape. This is evident with the “clack clack clack” noise when the seat is moved forward and aft. Over time this wears the seat track holes into an oval shape. The pins slide along the track and wear the holes. LASAR sells new Delrin rollers that will make you good for another 5-7000 hours. 

[RLCarter]

3 hours ago, jetdriven said:

The rollers are phenolic and wear in an hourglass shape.

I pulled the rollers off when I painted the seat bases, all 8 rollers were metallic, brass or bronze alloy. I wonder if they are original as I doubt they've been replaced 

[carusoam]

RLC,

My 65C had plastic rollers that didn't make it the whole 40 years I needed them to....

For preferential wear of the roller over the seat track... the track has to be harder than the roller.  

Brass and aluminum are both soft and easy to machine. Similar material hardnesses have a tendency to wear each other out....

 

from the internet...

Jan 2, 2008 · In general aluminum is slightly harder than brass. However, aluminum alloys can be softer that some brasses. The general Brinell hardness (BHN) range from 50 to 110 for both alloys ...

 

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

[N201MKTurbo]

I think the biggest problem is if the rollers stop rolling from decades of lack of lubrication and cleaning. They will rapidly wear the rails if they are sliding instead of rolling. Eventually there enough wear that the bottom of the seat roller brackets starts to rub on the bottom of the rails and the seats are almost impossible to move. New rollers will usually fix it.

[kortopates]

I've replaced all 4 of my seat tracks on my K. The right side co-pilot was the side that was worn the most and prompted replacing them, but I do most of my flying from the right seat too. They wear out identically to the Cessna seat tracks, and essentially the same material as the Cessna tracks, but we don't have the same AD requiring them to be replaced like the Cessna's. Its a big job, made bigger with the electric gear actuator in the way too. 

I also replaced the seat roller with the LASAR rollers too at the same time. Huge improvement!

Edited December 9, 2017 by kortopates

[Hank]

Should be retainers at the back of the rails. Remove them, slide the rear rollers off the rail, lift seat and slide forward until the front rollers come off. Then lift the seat out.

[DonMuncy]

Don't forget the retainers (typically cotter pins) at the front of the rails.

[Guest]

I just finished replacing all of the seat rails in an F model, it had cracks and all four were bent as well.  As. Paul says above it’s a big job, having a large variety of riveting gear and bucking bars helps.

A Cessna is certainly easier than a Mooney, and a Comanche is even easier, they’re screwed to the structure.

Clarence

 

[Captnmack]

Thanks for the info..Doc, I have one forward edge bent but I think they are passable and would replace if not for ALL the rivets!

[M20F-1968]

I have seats from an Ovation in my F.  The pilot seat slipped backward on occasion.  Fortunately it never did this in the air.

We looked for a reason and decided to change the two seat locking pins in both pilot and copilot seats.  The seats lock in much better and it is 

much more reliable to test that the pins are positively in the holes by pressing down in the bar.  The old pins were ever so slightly bent.  

For those of you who re having problems, consider this as a possible reason for the problems.  The pins are expensive, $100 each.

John Breda

 

[milotron]

On 12/9/2017 at 2:04 PM, kortopates said:

I've replaced all 4 of my seat tracks on my K. The right side co-pilot was the side that was worn the most and prompted replacing them, but I do most of my flying from the right seat too. They wear out identically to the Cessna seat tracks, and essentially the same material as the Cessna tracks, but we don't have the same AD requiring them to be replaced like the Cessna's. Its a big job, made bigger with the electric gear actuator in the way too. 

I also replaced the seat roller with the LASAR rollers too at the same time. Huge improvement!

Sorry to resurrect this post, but is there an AD from Mooney on this? My mechanic seems to think so. He says they ‘failed’ and need to be replaced. 

[kortopates]

35 minutes ago, milotron said:

Sorry to resurrect this post, but is there an AD from Mooney on this? My mechanic seems to think so. He says they ‘failed’ and need to be replaced. 

There is an AD on the Cessna seat tracks which are near identical to ours, but not the Mooney's. Cessna does make a go-no-go gauge. He could be referring to that.

[MoonFlyer68]

On ‎7‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 2:29 PM, DonMuncy said:

Don't forget the retainers (typically cotter pins) at the front of the rails.

Given that this thread has been resurrected, I have a question about those cotter pins.  Is there a better option than the cotter pin?  Not long ago I was working under the pilots instrument panel and apparently I somehow got my seat to go back past the cotter pin.  I got into the plane to fly with a couple passengers and could not move the seat forward past it.  Had to get everyone out of the plane, pull that pin to move the seat, replace the pin, and then could finally go flying.  Is there something that would be better to prevent the seat from rolling back past where it is supposed to?  Is there possibly something that is a little easier to remove and reinstall if required?

Aircraft Spruce has these for the Cessna, has anyone tried this on our Mooney's?  And the dreaded question, would it be legal?

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/cessnaseatstop.php?clickkey=71314

[Guest]

1 hour ago, MilitaryAV8R said:

Given that this thread has been resurrected, I have a question about those cotter pins.  Is there a better option than the cotter pin?  Not long ago I was working under the pilots instrument panel and apparently I somehow got my seat to go back past the cotter pin.  I got into the plane to fly with a couple passengers and could not move the seat forward past it.  Had to get everyone out of the plane, pull that pin to move the seat, replace the pin, and then could finally go flying.  Is there something that would be better to prevent the seat from rolling back past where it is supposed to?  Is there possibly something that is a little easier to remove and reinstall if required?

Aircraft Spruce has these for the Cessna, has anyone tried this on our Mooney's?  And the dreaded question, would it be legal?

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/cessnaseatstop.php?clickkey=71314

Was the cotter pin the correct size? It should be an AN380-5-3, 5/32” diameter, 3/4” long.

I would also see not reason that the Cessna stop wouldn’t work.  I would have no issue signing the plane out with it.

Clarence

[MoonFlyer68]

31 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Was the cotter pin the correct size? It should be an AN380-5-3, 5/32” diameter, 3/4” long.

I would also see not reason that the Cessna stop wouldn’t work.  I would have no issue signing the plane out with it.

Clarence

Thanks for the feedback Doc.  I will buy one and give it a try.  I honestly do not recall the size of the pin that was in there.  This was some time ago.

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, MilitaryAV8R said:

Given that this thread has been resurrected, I have a question about those cotter pins.  Is there a better option than the cotter pin?  Not long ago I was working under the pilots instrument panel and apparently I somehow got my seat to go back past the cotter pin.  I got into the plane to fly with a couple passengers and could not move the seat forward past it.  Had to get everyone out of the plane, pull that pin to move the seat, replace the pin, and then could finally go flying.  Is there something that would be better to prevent the seat from rolling back past where it is supposed to?  Is there possibly something that is a little easier to remove and reinstall if required?

Aircraft Spruce has these for the Cessna, has anyone tried this on our Mooney's?  And the dreaded question, would it be legal?

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/cessnaseatstop.php?clickkey=71314

That's what's in my airplane.   My IA has been fine with them.   I thought they were stock!

[PT20J]

Simpler solution: M20J IPC shows AN3-11A bolts from SN 24-0378 on replacing the cotter pins used previously used. 

[Andy95W]

4 hours ago, MilitaryAV8R said:

Given that this thread has been resurrected, I have a question about those cotter pins.  Is there a better option than the cotter pin?  Not long ago I was working under the pilots instrument panel and apparently I somehow got my seat to go back past the cotter pin.  I got into the plane to fly with a couple passengers and could not move the seat forward past it.  Had to get everyone out of the plane, pull that pin to move the seat, replace the pin, and then could finally go flying.  Is there something that would be better to prevent the seat from rolling back past where it is supposed to?  Is there possibly something that is a little easier to remove and reinstall if required?

Aircraft Spruce has these for the Cessna, has anyone tried this on our Mooney's?  And the dreaded question, would it be legal?

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/cessnaseatstop.php?clickkey=71314

$15 each!?!  And the parts manual says you need 4 of them!

Here's the CB solution, works better than the cotter pins specified by Mooney.  Buy 4 at the hardware store for less than $2.  Or for a 100% legal solution, use the bolts called out in the parts manual like Skip said, above.

[Ragsf15e]

10 hours ago, MilitaryAV8R said:

Given that this thread has been resurrected, I have a question about those cotter pins.  Is there a better option than the cotter pin?  Not long ago I was working under the pilots instrument panel and apparently I somehow got my seat to go back past the cotter pin.  I got into the plane to fly with a couple passengers and could not move the seat forward past it.  Had to get everyone out of the plane, pull that pin to move the seat, replace the pin, and then could finally go flying.  Is there something that would be better to prevent the seat from rolling back past where it is supposed to?  Is there possibly something that is a little easier to remove and reinstall if required?

Aircraft Spruce has these for the Cessna, has anyone tried this on our Mooney's?  And the dreaded question, would it be legal?

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/cessnaseatstop.php?clickkey=71314

Mine has those in the back, bolts in the front.  Both options work just fine.

[0TreeLemur]

Since every flight has a pilot (hopefully), but not every flight has a passenger up front, swap the seats every annual or two to help even out the wear on the rollers.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, PT20J said:

Simpler solution: M20J IPC shows AN3-11A bolts from SN 24-0378 on replacing the cotter pins used previously used. 

I’ve never seen one with an AN3 bolt.  Earlier models use the cotter pin method, later models use an 8-32 screw, two bushings and a locking nut.

Clarence

[Skates97]

Mine just has a clevis pin through the hole in the rail and a cotter pin keeping it in place. Same thing in the front and back of the rail. Buying the clevis and cotter pins by themselves instead of as part of that kit listed above is much cheaper. Replace the cotter pin whenever you remove the seats for a few cents each.

[PT20J]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

I’ve never seen one with an AN3 bolt.  Earlier models use the cotter pin method, later models use an 8-32 screw, two bushings and a locking nut.

Clarence

Clarence,

That’s interesting. The IPC shows the AN3, but... my ‘94 J had the setup you describe. So, maybe the documentation didn’t reflect practice. I went to the hardware store and bought 8-32 screws and 1/4” long threaded bushings and installed those since they are easier to remove.

In Cessnas, the stops are designed to restrict the seat travel so you can still reach the controls if the seat slides. In the Mooneys, the stops just keep the seat from sliding off the rails at the extreme end.

Skip