Jump to content


Basic Member
  • Posts

  • Joined

  • Last visited

  • Days Won


1980Mooney last won the day on August 24 2023

1980Mooney had the most liked content!


Recent Profile Visitors

7,803 profile views

1980Mooney's Achievements

Grand Master

Grand Master (14/14)

  • Posting Machine Rare
  • Reacting Well
  • Dedicated
  • Very Popular Rare
  • Collaborator

Recent Badges



  1. This discussion went off the rails with @N201MKTurbo's comment about a disconnected aileron rising to "the stop". OK that was too extreme, but his theory is otherwise basically correct. (BTW - per the Service Manual - Down stop limit is 8 degrees and Up stop limit is 12.5-17 degrees for Serial No. 0001 through 1037 and 12.5-14.5 degrees after.) Back to the OP's @0TreeLemur's question about slop and dead spots. As @N201MKTurbo pointed out there are 2 separate sources of bearing slop/ excess clearance which affect the feel/handling differently. If there is slop/looseness in the hinge on the yoke or the heim linkages attached to the yoke under the panel (4, 10, 8, 12,14) anywhere up to where the L&R aileron control rods (15) are connected together at (16), then you will get slop/looseness in the yoke (dead spots) while the ailerons are completely stable and not moving. If there is slop/looseness in the bellcrank joint/hinge and heim lingages (push/pull tubes and bellcranks) outboard on the wings connected to the ailerons (17, 19, 28, 30), then the slop will be taken up due to the lift on the ailerons in stable flight As pointed out in the post on the prior page "Ailerons high in trail" from 2018, several Mooney owners (presumably with a lot of slop in the outboard heim linkages) report seeing the ailerons rise as much as 1 inch above the flap in flight. Assuming the chord on the aileron is about 12 inches that is about 5 degree upward deflection. Obviously they are still attached and they still have upward lift holding them up so it remains to be seen what the maximum deflection would be. Also none of the posters with "high trailing ailerons" said that they experienced any "dead zones" I think this is because even when with an 1 inch (5 degree) upward deflection due to "slop" there was still lift (we can review all the theory and analysis but the real world "acid test" is that there is still material lift on the ailerons.) As a result one aileron will always have the slop pulled out tight as you deflect the ailerons in opposite directions (one aileron control tube is pushing while the other is pulling. I think this covers up any feeling of a dead zone in the opposite aileron as the push-pull tube reverses direction All the heim and other bearings remain pulled tight in one wing while the bearings in the other wing are momentarily not touching either side of the bearing. Once the "momentarily loose" push/pull tube moves so that the linkages touch the other side of the bearing, then the slack has been taken up in that direction. I think that this is also a matter of degree - minor slop in the outboard heims will never be felt. Major looseness at some point might be noticeable. About 10 years ago I replaced one of the linkages (29) to the aileron hinge due to looseness. The heim bearings were welded on so I had to get it from a Mooney MSC. I can't remember the price I recall that I thought it outrageous back then. I bet it is more so now. This diagram is typical of most Mooney's but not exactly the same as your J:
  2. Here is a 2018 topic on ailerons floating up above the flaps during level flight. Some had ailerons rising in flight as much as 1 inch above the flaps on both sides in level flight. As @jetdriven explained (and like @N201MKTurbo said): "So you have 16.75lb per sq ft of wing loading. Those ailerons are 3-4 sqft. So they have 50-67 lb of force lifting them upwards in flight. Either start replacing stuff to get the slop out, or rig them lower so they fly level in cruise. Check the ailerons with rigging boards, while holding both up with 20-50lb of force, to be sure the flaps aren't 2 degrees down instead of the ailerons looking high." The Service Manual says to adjust the ailerons 0 to -2 degrees down while on the ground (droop below the flaps when fully retracted). For the same reason as stated above, any clearance/slop in the heim bearings or turnbuckles will be taken up in aileron rise during flight due to lift on the ailerons.
  3. Agreed that the price range of a new Lycoming or Continental keeps growing or to paraphrase @aviatoreb's comments they keep giving us reasons to set bigger and bigger piles of money on fire.... Also another thing not mentioned in the cost of a retrofit - if you want a heater in your plane you will have to add a coolant fed heat exchanger and fan system inside the cabin or potentially mount it in the engine compartment and tie into the existing SCAT ventilation/heater tubing. These costs all add up. The things I don't get with Deltahawk: I have never seen any "real world" performance data published from the certified engine in the Cirrus SR-20 mule. (if have missed it someone please post). Lab dyno fuel consumption/HP provided for two (2) data points is interesting and one indicator - but real performance in the SR-20 is another. After all they have been flying the prototype for 10 years - in 2014 it went to Oshkosh in an earlier version. If they have been perfecting the certified DH-180 in a Cirrus SR-20 testbed for 10 years why isn't Cirrus an early adopter? (or why hasn't Deltahawk teamed up with Cirrus to roll it out to them first?) After all Cirrus is building GA aircraft in material numbers. Instead they announced at the time of certification that they teamed up with Bearhawk in homebuilt Is Cirrus cool to Deltahawk because China State Aviation (AVIC) owns both Cirrus Aircraft (through its CAIGA subsidiary) and Continental Aerospace (through its AECC subsidiary) which markets its own diesel engine via the acquisition of Thielert? - and see this as competition which they don't want to assist? In the Cessna Pilots Association December 2023 article on Deltahawk, Dennis Webb, Deltahawk's Director of Marketing and Certification, tells the author " Webb promised me that we can expect STCs for the Cessna 172 and other Cessna models at some point." WTF? - there are only about 40,000+ Cessna 172 still flying. Instead they want to piddle around with Blackhwak Aircraft and sell onesies and twosies? It doesn't sound like a priority. If there is no urgency regarding providing STC's for Cessna (another 20,000+ 182's for the 235 HP variant, another 4,000+ Cardinals, etc, etc..), I seriously doubt you will see a Mooney STC very soon.
  4. There is no reason to replace the Plessey gear actuator in 350 hours when it reaches 1,000 hours. It is not an AD. 1,000 flying hours may not have a good relationship to actuator cycles. - consider a family flyer vs one used for rental or training. That said, if you buy a plane with a Plessey and it does fail for any reason you are looking at a high cost for the actuator. The labor to swap it out does not sound too bad. Per Tom Raush at Top Gun from the same Mooney Flyer "Since 1977, Mooney has used a linear jack screw actuator, which is a much more reliable system. While there are several manufacturers, all are interchangeable. Later models are 24 volt, but the motor is easy to change so you can put a newer actuator in an older model, just by changing the motor. " As @PT20J says that only buy it if you have a way to replace the Plessey. That means there needs to be a substantial discount in the purchase price, or like @KSMooniac have a spare in hand.
  5. This is from 2017 but Tom Raush at Top Gun talks about how they rebuild the Dukes. He also indicates that the 40/1 gears are available but the disengage unit is a high wear item which they have to scrounge from salvage. See page 18 in the attached Mooney Flyer " The early Mooneys have Dukes and ITT actuators. These are a real problem today, since we can't get parts, except for the updated gear kits (40:1). Most commonly, the disengage unit that allows the manual extension crank to engage, happens to be a high wear item, and we have no parts available. We have had to retrofit newer gear actuators to older models because of lack of parts and have almost used everything in the salvage yards." 2017-AugTMF.pdf (themooneyflyer.com) Don Maxwell's site makes it sound like they rebuild the Dukes and ITT actuators. His post shows the wear patterns on the gears that precede failure. AD 75-23-04: SB M20-190 | Mysite (donmaxwell.com) As @Yetti said, if it is the electric motor issue that should be reparable.
  6. ITT Actuators Mooney SB M20-189A allowed for the substitution of the ITT actuator to replace the Dukes actuator. The ITT actuator is almost a carbon copy of a Dukes actuator. Don Maxwell believes it is not as good. Both actuators have the same gears and that the ITT actuator is not addressed in the AD or SB M20-190. He inspects the ITT just as a Dukes, and have found several near failures that have never been inspected. AD 75-23-04: SB M20-190 | Mysite (donmaxwell.com)
  7. Schematics can be found in Volume 2 of the M20J Service Manual. The Service Manual is in the Downloads Section. Your serial number is on the second page in File 2. That particular page is not great but still readable.
  8. Bryan_Johnson-Airports_Reversionary_Rights.pdf (govoffice.com)
  9. Clarence got pissed off with some of the people here last August and quit MooneySpace. He deleted his account and everything he could such as attachments. His posts remain as “Guest”. Your post to him is basically sending a message to the Dead letter office…
  10. You have neglected to add luggage in these trip scenarios. In the case of pilot, 2 pax and 2 dogs I bet that you will have 45 lbs of luggage/dog food/ supplies - in reality probably more. You are at 705 lbs without luggage. Luggage takes you to about 750 lbs. Also Bravo’s burn 16-18 gph. That’s about 100 lbs per hour. Depending on the UL of the ones that you find for sale, you might only have a 2 hour range - less in IMC. Las Vegas to Conroe would be a lot of stops with a tight/full plane. But if it’s once a year to a shorter destination it could be workable.
  11. And this is so that your policy is at the front of the line to pay for replacement of the hangar and any adjacent damaged planes in the event a fire starts in your leased hangar space for any reason. The city has insurance of course, but they only want to start paying after your insurance is completely exhausted. https://www.wric.com/news/northern-virginia/fire-at-leesburg-airport-causes-7-million-in-damage-cause-unknown/ https://www.pressenterprise.com/2023/11/06/corona-airport-fire-damages-5-airplanes-1-hangar/
  12. Absolutely – any city that has a city manager or lawyer with half a brain requires proof of insurance. Some, but not all, cities want their name added to the insurance policy.
  13. Ooh.. the other “plastic plane”! Thanks for confirming that “aluminum is dead” as far as Air Force initial training goes.
  14. I have a hard time believing that compression of the nose gear donuts have much effect. I have a J with a Missile modification. It has an extra 200 lbs up front (and hanging out farther forward) on the same exact nose gear truss geometry and donuts as yours. Point being - my donuts/discs are always more compressed. Just dial in a lot more nose up trim.
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.