AndreiC

I do not understand how the increase to 2900 MGW happens in newer planes (from a theoretical point of view, not regulatory), but I think I understand why upgrading the engine to 300 hp allows an increase to 3200 MGW. There should be a relationship between drag and power which must have to do not only with how long the runway is. If the plane is heavier, the angle of attack for level flight (or for a specific climb rate) must be higher at the same airspeed in order to generate more lift. That higher angle of attack produces more drag, which needs to be compensated by more power from the engine. Assuming one had an infinitely long runway and not much friction with the wing in the neutral position (not generating any lift) one could theoretically accelerate the same plane to any speed on the runway, even with a modest engine. But once you rotate and the wing starts needing to generate enough lift to climb (or to keep level), a heavier airplane will have more drag. If the engine power is not sufficient to compensate for it, that drag will cause the airspeed to drop until the plane no longer can fly even in level flight. All that is to say that even if you can prove that the wings are strong enough to hold a 3200 lb airplane, and the landing gear sturdy enough to not break at that weight, that does not mean you can pencil whip a weight increase to 3200 MGW. That is because with a 200 hp engine the plane may not fly at that weight, but not because the wings will break, but because the drag will be too much for the power the engine generates.

I can't believe this to be true, if insured for the same amount. I think the bulk of the insurance cost comes from having to fix gear-ups, and I don't think Mooney pilots are renowned to be better at putting the gear down than pilots of other makes. If anything, according to my mechanic they may have a reputation for being worse...

You don't mention at all two very important things: a) What is your experience level (hours, types of planes flown); and b) What is your intended usage for the plane you'll buy. If you are low hours insurance on a Mooney (or any retractable complex plane) will be much higher than on a plain vanilla Cherokee or Skyhawk. If your planned usage is mostly puttering in the pattern with the occasional longer distance trip, a simple plane will do just fine. Same if you just want to build hours. Where a Mooney shines is in long distance trips. A 450nm trip is easy peasy in any Mooney, especially if equipped with a working autopilot. But it is mostly a two-person airplane. If you will need to regularly carry four people, there are better planes for that. So a Mooney is a rather specialized tool, that suits well a certain subset of pilots but it is not a one-size fits all. As far as expenses go, here is my breakdown of typical costs per year so far, roughly, after 3 years (without including any financing -- I bought it cash -- and with no engine reserve taken into account). -- hangar $3k/year -- insurance $2k/year -- annual with no surprises $2.5k/year -- surprises (small things that always pop up at annual or in-between) $1.5k/year -- small improvements (tires; or getting a paint correction and ceramic coat; or small avionics improvements) $2k/year -- fuel (100 hours * 10 gph * $5/gal) $5k If you add to this engine reserve (about $2k for 100 hours) and avionics reserve for future upgrades, you are easily over $20k/year. And this is for a plane that did not need any financing, gave me virtually no surprises, in an area where hangaring is very cheap, and I am mechanically inclined so I am happy to do small things under supervision, etc. I can easily see it being $30k/year under other conditions.

Just for future reference I am putting this here. I do not know if all the Bromptons are the same size, or if the baggage door got bigger on J and later models. But I have definitely heard people say that a Brompton should fit in through the baggage compartment, and hard as I tried mine will not go through my E’s baggage door. It is still a great bike for up to 10-15 miles, and it is very easy to get into the plane through the cabin door. I flew a few times with it and a full size electric bike (with both wheels off) and a full size passenger in the front seat.

Keep in mind that my handle is not flush like in the J and later models. It is a metal bar that sticks out.

I took off the cabin door trim cover and noticed that at the place where the outside door handle goes in, there is a large open hole to the outside (maybe 1.5”x 1”) with nothing sealing it around the door handle. It looks like originally there was some kind of leather or rubber flap sealing around the handle, but it’s long gone, and a lot of air blows (out) through that hole in flight. What should I use to seal it? I looked for a thread about this on MS but came empty handed.

I feel that I need to defend what Wentworth is doing, though I am in no way affiliated with them. What they do is they take out the avionics and sell the rest of the airplane as a whole. BUT -- they still hang on to the avionics and they offer you to buy them back, at a slightly discounted price from what ebay would bring. They make this very clear when you start talking to them about one of their salvage planes on ebay. This is also how things worked out when I bought my PA28 from them, I bought the two original KX155's from them separately. To answer what @1980Mooney was saying -- I don't think it will take anywhere near $60-80k to get the avionics back in place. Probably what was in the panel was a GNS530W, a KX155, and a EDM-900. You probably can buy them back from WW for around $10-12k. Then you just slide them back in the trays! That guy is not answering any emails, I've sent him several, I was curious about that plane. Not sure if it is a scam or he completely forgot about his barnstormers ad... Well, I got myself convinced that it was not worth it. Probably it is not as bad as some of the people on this thread say (i.e., could be made airworthy again with maybe $50-60k, not $100k as suggested) but the difference from buying a flying plane is not enough to make the hassle worth it. I will give credit where it's due, it was @MikeOH that convinced me the most, though @Justin Schmidt came in a close second

@LANCECASPER interesting point of view, and I surely trust that what you say is true in 95% of the cases. But I may be one of the few lucky ones that got a good deal from Wentworth. I bought my previous airplane from them back in November 2012, a Cherokee 180. It had an interesting story, at least according to Wentworth. It was owned by a guy in a remote part of Texas who for a while kept it in very good shape and flew it a lot, and then lost interest. For about 6-7 years the plane sat, with only pencil-whipped annual inspections and virtually no flying. Somehow it was overinsured. A hail storm passed over the field, and the owner made a claim to the insurance company which bought the plane off him in full. All this happened sight unseen. Wentworth bought the plane from the insurance company also sight unseen, but when they went to look it over it had no signs of any hail damage. Only exactly one dent in the upper surface of one wing (not an airworthiness issue), which could easily have been a tool falling on it. They felt bad about dismantling it, and instead sold it through ebay; I actually missed out on the auction, but told them that if the deal falls through I am interested, and they contacted me afterwards and we closed on the purchase. It was an excellent deal. The plane served me very well for over 10 years and 700 hours with literally zero surprises. All for about half of what a Cherokee 180 in good shape would have cost at the time. When I sold it in 2023 in order to buy my current E I got for it an embarrassing multiplier of what I had paid for it. (But the prices were crazy back then because of the pandemic.)

This is not quite an explanation. Wentworth's business model is buying many airplanes at auction and either selling them without doing anything and making a quick buck on the turnaround, or dismantling them and selling them for parts. They don't sell any ready to go airplanes. They probably bought this plane for $25-30k at an insurance auction, sight unseen, and hope to make a quick $10k for the risk they took. This is their business model. This does not mean that buying the plane from them and fixing it up you would not end up ahead of buying a working airplane. You would also be taking a calculated risk (that the engine is still in relatively good order, that there is no hidden damage, etc.) and if things work out well getting some return on your investment for taking that risk. Of course you would also risk ending up spending more than the plane is worth, and that is what risk is about. I was just trying to gauge the risk. I am not so concerned about the engine and the prop side of the expense. More concerning for me would be how hard it is to fix the belly (something I know nothing about), how worrisome is the fact that the plane flew relatively little (730 hours in 20 years) since overhaul, and that it has the evil Dukes gear actuator.

I don't need to carry 3-4 people almost ever. But yes, the thought of trading up to a J with just hassle and relatively little extra money was the main idea. My E does not have the 201 windshield, and I would like to have faster and smoother ops from a cleaner airframe and better propeller. Having been in a couple of J's and K's I cannot avoid feeling comparison envy... But I also agree that this is not rational, I have a perfectly fine plane which so far has been ready to go every single time I wanted to go and has given me no surprises. So in some sense the main reason for asking my question was to have guys like you talk sense into me!! Thanks for doing exactly that. I think to some extent a conversation I had with Jimmy G. when I was picking my plane up has to do with this. He had sold my plane to its previous owner 3-4 years prior to my purchase. I asked Jimmy why that guy had not stuck with it. He said "well, after seeing what a Mooney is like, most people eventually move into a more grown up version". So I feel a bit like I have still the starter version...

Wow. That is exactly what I was hoping to hear, to explain why I should not do it. Thanks!

That was precisely my question. How often is this the case? From talking to a reputed engine shop, they said the crankshaft is condemned only relatively rarely.

I know things always cost more than you calculate they would. But if I were to buy a plane (J-model) that has had a light gear up (no damage to wings/flaps/ailerons at all, belly scraped but the brackets that hold the belly panels undamaged, prop is done for, engine needs a teardown inspection, need new nose gear doors -- how much would you expect to need to pay for this? My calculation would be something along the lines of: -- $8k for a used two blade prop -- $20k for an IRAN inspection, including the cost to remove and reinstall the engine -- $3k for nose gear doors -- $5k for fiberglass repair to the one-piece belly Is this far off the mark? What are your thoughts/experiences with such repairs? (I already have an E, so I would not be plane-less while these repairs would be done. The idea would be to sell the E after the J is fixed up.)

What do they say, if you have a clock you know the time. If you have two, you can never be sure.

Big fan of Concorde here. In my previous life (Piper Cherokee) I had two Gills die early deaths. Since switching to Concordes, first on the Cherokee and then on the Mooney, no surprises.