What should i get?

[Samurai Husky]

Hi Everyone!

I hope you have some coffee ready, because this will be a long post. 

Right now I am in the process of getting my private pilot. Since i have absolutely fallen in love with all aspects of flying (even ground school!) i decided that once i do get my license, that i would buy a plane. Early on in the process i was actually looking at twins, specifically a C340a. So i joined the twin cessna group and got a lot of feed back. In the end i was convinced by several members that going into a twin this early would be foolish and that i should work my way up. I then started to look at P205n's to get the pressurization, but those seemed really expensive and unless you get a turboprop, pretty slow. 

That said, one of the members suggested i look at Mooney's; 

The missions is as follows: Currently Single w/ 2 Huskies (hence the name); Flights would be from the California Bay Area to Phoenix (4+ times a year), Chicago (maybe 2x per year), The rest relatively local i.e San Diego, Tahoe, Seattle, etc. I would also like to eventually venture up into Alaska. That being said, I would prefer something that i could get to Phoenix in 1 go (approx 550nm+reserves); Chicago in Maybe 1 stop (1500nm); Has Decent carry capacity where i may take up to 3 people and luggage. The other key component was not to spend all day in a plane, especially for longer flights like Phoenix and Chicago. 

All this being said, I started to look at Rocket 305's; which are older, and have older avionics in them vs something newer. But based on the posts, people seem to love them, they are quick and have a decent payload capacity when compared to the other Mooney's. My flight instructor wants me to get a SR22 since i am learning in a SR20. But the prices on those are pretty steep and for the price range i am in, i would be looking at a 1st generation, maybe 2nd generation.

So my question is,  If you had between 150k-200k what would you get? Is a rocket worth buying and then upgrading the avionics? or is it better to get something like a ovation or beechcraft that has more up to date electronics but has less payload and flies a bit slower? 

I have seen similar questions like this pop up in the past, but those posts are now over 3 years old and not sure if the plane climate has changed. 

Thanks in advance!

[Mooneymite]

Welcome to the wonderful world of Mooneys!

Mooneys aren't for everyone, but if you are one of the fortunate few, you are hooked.  There is no known cure. 

Because you are still in training for your PPL, there is a lot of ground for you to cover.  This Mooneyspace web site will be a God-send for you because virtually any question you can think of has been discussed, debated, solved and resolved many times.  The search function can be somewhat quirky, but keep at it.  I assure you every possible subject has been covered!  There will be hours of pleasant reading while exploring the forum.

As a first time buyer and a fresh pilot, the question always comes up:  Can a guy learn to fly in a Mooney?

This particular question comes up frequently by new members and the archives are full of the discussions.  There is a lot of wisdom here on Mooneyspace even though it sometimes seems contradictory.  

It is helpful for your audience if you will include some basic information about yourself in your profile....like your location, so that Mooneyspace participants can taylor their comments to better fit your situation.

Anyway, welcome aboard!  

Mooneymite.

Edited March 27, 2016 by Mooneymite

[mike_elliott]

See if you can get Don Kaye to give you a ride in his Bravo (I trust your in the Bay area). Once he sets the hook, make sure you spend a few hours with a quality Mooney instructor like Don so you get the most from your new to you Mooney. Bravo's right now are going rather cheap and are a real bargain. An Ovation would also fill your mission very nicely. Both of these are "personal airliner" class planes, in my opinion.

[Samurai Husky]

I'm out of kpao;

yea, I have spent a good amount of time browsing the forums, which is why i decided to open a new topic as the question was specifically towards learning in a rocket.

i just didn't know if that was too much plane for some one just starting out. I plan on being done with my pp by end of May/ early June.

if it was, then I was looking for other opinions. 

Thanks for the quick replies

 

[N33GG]

There are two parts of the equation when it comes to aircraft.  The first part is the acquisition cost.  Second comes the care and feeding cost.

Sounds like you have lots of options.  Congrats and welcome!

[Jim Peace]

2 hours ago, Samurai Husky said:

So my question is,  If you had between 150k-200k what would you get?

Take the money and sell very wide strangles on SPY....use the profit for airline tickets for chicago and phx.  just get a M20C for your local bay area flying......A lot less headaches for you.  

get your license first and fly locally and get an understanding of how wrong the weather man is.  get your instrument rating as well...fly for about 4 years locally just to understand what it is you don't know ........straying far away from home as a brand new pilot in a high performance plane like a mooney can be deadly........

Don't mean to scare you away from this but only to help you learn from other peoples mistakes.  Sure there are exceptions but the numbers are not on your side......especially crossing mountain ranges in a single engine airplane as a VFR new pilot.........

Also this gives you the opportunity to learn who it is in your area that does good work on airplanes.  it is easier to unfix a problem on a 30 or 40k airplane that a mechanic or yourself may have caused.....on a Rocket or an ovation you can cause a 30k issue in a second just by overlooking something on a checklist........

Take it slow and smart.....learn what it is you don't know first.......and that what you do know is not always true......

Welcome to aviation........

 

 

Edited March 27, 2016 by Jim Peace

[bradp]

To me your mission profile depends on one thing given you're taking two (rather large dogs) with you on trips... Do you need icing protection or not?  If you do, then go for a bravo or ovation.  If not try to find a TN E/F model that will get you where you need to go.  Concentrate  on gaining hours and experience in a less expensive model that does 85% of the mission profile, upgrade it how you like,and spend the extra dollars of an acquisition cost of a more expensive plane on gas. 

 

edit:  thinking a bit more... Get 500 hrs and then think about ice protection.   Start making longer and longer cross country trips with very conservative decision making until you start to learn how much you don't know.  That will happen between 259-500 hrs depending on the type of flying you are doing.   

 

[CaptainAB]

A 205, Mse or maybe an eagle. If your training in an SR 20 you are used to going fast. A turbo is a lot for us low time pilots to manage and without your instrument rating I'm not sure how much benefit you it will get out of it.  Of course you can get a really well equipped sr20 in your price range so I'm guess 155 knots isn't fast enough? Realistically whatever you buy should have the equipment you want now in it. I'll say in general those old pilots give good advice in that a twin is usually too much too soon. But then again so was a cirrus, and cirrus has really proven that if you know what you want and get great training in it, you can just buy it and save all the step up costs.

[Samurai Husky]

Sorry about the brevity of the last post, i was sittingin the lobby waiting for my flight instructor so i was typing it out on my iphone.

So to answer a few questions. 

1." Take the money and sell very wide strangles on SPY....use the profit for airline tickets for chicago and phx "

I actually made a bit of money shorting oil. Right now i have about $410k sitting in a bank account (haven't paid taxes on it yet); The idea was to take out a HELC on my house since its doubled in price in the last 8 years, I now have about 540k equity. I idea was to put that $410k into a REIT and some other dividend paying stocks and then use the dividend to pay for flying. Based on what i am looking at, it should yield about 38k/year after taxes; I would use the HELC to pay for the taxes and plane as i can get a 4.9% 30yr fixed +  have the option to move some of it into a 2.5% variable. Something happens i can always sell out of my investments, pay off the loan and not worry about the house. 

2. Weather; My first ride was in a high turbulence environment; There was a storm moving in and we were tossed around like a rag doll. My instructor told me that was the first time he ever took someone up in weather like that and can see why. So i have instantly found respect for weather since it wasnt even 'that bad'; 99% of flights from here to PHX are through desserts and low mountains, but even then, based on what i have read, i wouldn't even thing about going if there was a front about to/or just came through. I wouldn't think about going Chicago by myself for a while; I defiantly want to get IFR before then and its a lot cheaper to get IFR in your plane then to rent one.

3. For the mechanic; There is a Mooney service center about 50 miles from here at Stockton Airport. There is also Wolfe Aviation at that same airport; Both have experience with Mooney Rockets; Wolfe actually has one they are helping to sell that they have been maintaining for several years; 

 

The reason i looked at the Rocket wasnt just for speed (but there is a good reason for wanting it, more later); But its something that i can easily grow into. With a SR20, i feel that after about 6 months of being on my own, i would be looking to upgrade. It just doesnt have room to haul 2 dogs in. When i look at other planes, you can get more carry, but at a steep speed penalty. The reason for speed is really for 1 reason; I have family down in Phoenix and it would be nice to go down and see them with out taking PTO time. Since i work from home 95% of the time, I am trying to convince my boss to be able to let me work remote with the understanding where if i need to be back in the bay area ASAP i can. Some of these smaller planes will only do 120kts - 150knts and if i have a head winds, much lower. So i want to (if i had to) make it back in the bay area within 4 hours or less. 

I figure speed is something up cant really upgrade to with out selling a plane. From what i can see online, planes dont sell that quickly. Its like selling a RV, you have to wait for the right buyer at the right time and it can take years unless you heavily discount the plane. So instead of losing money on the discount, i figure i would be better off just not flying the plane at full speed and slowly doing things as I feel comfortable. 

I wanted to keep what ever i get for at least 8yrs, before i think about an upgrade and i just think life will force me to upgrade before then if i got something smaller. 

Forgot to mention; The reason i dont fly commercial is because of my dogs; They don't do well at doggy hotels, believe me i have tried. One is a rescue and both were arrested for killing a chicken.....I know.... But they ended up in the pound for 2 weeks before i could get them out and so cannot be caged. 

So right now i end up driving down to PHX from here which is about 11 hours, because of this, i really only see my family once a year at Christmas or thanksgiving when i can get the time off. With flying, at least I can throw the dogs in the back seat and go; Even if its something like a 3 day weekend, it makes it possible now to go see them. 

Edited March 28, 2016 by Samurai Husky

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Sam Husky.

It's not the plane that is dangerous, for the most part...

There is so much to know, and so much experience to gain.

It takes a ton of cash (which some people have) and two tons of time, to gain a safe amount of experience.

There are four things that challenge ordinary pilots, and one thing that covers a lot of unique accidents...

1) VFR flights in IMC.

2) Running out of gas.

3) Thunderstorms.

4) Icing.

5) Low total time.

Faster, more powerful equipment gives you less time to learn the lesson and come up with solutions.  It is probably better to learn these things at a measured pace.

An Ovation flies the East Coast at Indy Speeds, and doesn't make a pit stop until the end.  There are no caution flags when it rains.  There are no red flags for thunderstorms and ice.  There is just you, the PIC, that is responsible for obtaining the things you need.  Just you, responsible for traveling to cool places at Indy speeds.

Get educated, get trained, get experienced, and don't rush or take short cuts...

Best regards,

-a-

[glafaille]

I apologize to my Mooney friends for what I am about to say..

I know this is a Mooney forum but are you sure a Mooney is the right plane for this mission?  Sounds a lot like a Cessna 182 Turbo mission to me, maybe even a C182 Turbo RG version.  160 to 170 knots cruise, 90 gallons of fuel, 7 hours of endurance, lots of room in a comfy cabin, easy loading and unloading, and a useful load over 1200 lbs.  Prices are around $125,000 and it has a 2000 hr Lycoming engine. 

The Mooney is a great aircraft but it is not the plane for every mission, 2 large dogs and baggage is going to make any plane seem small after a few hours.  Might be better to start with a larger cabin from the beginning.

[Mcstealth]

Please excuse the barbarians, welcome to the forum.

 

[Mcstealth]

34 minutes ago, glafaille said:

I apologize to my Mooney friends for what I am about to say..

I know this is a Mooney forum but are you sure a Mooney is the right plane for this mission?  Sounds a lot like a Cessna 182 Turbo mission to me, maybe even a C182 Turbo RG version.  160 to 170 knots cruise, 90 gallons of fuel, 7 hours of endurance, lots of room in a comfy cabin, easy loading and unloading, and a useful load over 1200 lbs.  Prices are around $125,000 and it has a 2000 hr Lycoming engine. 

The Mooney is a great aircraft but it is not the plane for every mission, 2 large dogs and baggage is going to make any plane seem small after a few hours.  Might be better to start with a larger cabin from the beginning.

I was thinking the same thing, but only in relation with the Huskies. 

That being said, Samurai, get whatever you want to get. The only thing I can think of is maybe get a Mooney (any plane) with factory air conditioning if you are truly going to be flying with your dogs. That being said also, go to the For Sale link on this site and buy Lancecaspers beautiful Ovation with factory air. It's paint scheme probably matches your dogs.

David

Edited March 28, 2016 by Mcstealth

[Samurai Husky]

I looked at the Skylanes; I figured the 210s would be better; But again, boils down to speed; 

I know for sure that the sirrus is to small; I figured the Mooney was slightly larger with a better top end especially since i could fold down the steats and let the dogs bounce betten the luggage area and the back seats (which is what i do with my car now, lower the back seats and let the float between the trunk and back seats). I had also been looking at beechcrafts as someone told me to look at bonanza's; But those are about the same price as a 210 and you lose out on pressurization.

I know that under 200k and i can fly the hell out of a single engine airplane; When i was looking at the twins, i was prepared to spend the 200k for a 340a and then close to 100k /y to fly it (though that included the loans on the plane); Even that the 565/hr to fly it, i thought i could get in about 80 hours a year, but i would be running very lean on my finances. I figured that a Rocket would be about 160/hr to fly + fixed costs of about 34k/yr in fixed costs including loan payments.

The idea is once I out grow this plane, i would transition into a twin, so it doesn't have to be full size right now; Im still single and no kids that i know of ;P So its just me and the dogs; I would like to take friends places, so that might be 2-3 adults, if i find someone then it would be me her and 2 dogs and luggage. So i figured the 1132lbs useful in the rocket, -200lbs for me and if i fill the tanks another 600 in gas still leaves me 332lbs for other (dogs are another 150lbs for the 2); which leaves 182lbs for either another person, or another person and luggage. If i didn't fill the tanks and it was a shorter flight then i could get more people in.

 

[Samurai Husky]

3 minutes ago, Mcstealth said:

I was thinking the same thing, but only in relation with the Huskies. 

That being said, Samurai, get whatever you want to get. The only thing I can think of is maybe get a Mooney (any plane) with factory air conditioning if you are truly going to be flying with your dogs. That being said also, go to the For Sale link on this site and buy Lancecaspers beautiful Ovation with factory air. It's paint scheme probably matches you dogs.

David

LOL. so this goes back to the original question. How much less of a plane is a Ovation Vs a Rocket? For example; I love the glass in the Ovation since it closely matches what i am using now in the Cirrus, But i could add in a G500+750+ a bunch of other stuff and still be at or below the cost of a Ovation with a G1000; 

Really it was this plane that really got me even looking at the Mooneys;

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20K+305+ROCKET&listing_id=2178772&s-type=aircraft

But then once i started to look at Mooneys, i started to look at 'all' of the Mooney's; From what i can tell people that have them, love them and the people that are selling, in general are moving up to much larger planes, or newer versions of the one that they have. 

When i talk to Cessna people, they are always talking about 'upgrading' to the next model to get more performance or more something because its 'lacking' in something.

When i talk to Cirrus people; They love the plane, but complain about space; Which i agree with, i tried to sit in the back seat and it was like the back seat of a Mustang. 

When i talk to beechcraft people, they complain how much they cost to run or how much the annuals are. 

As you can tell, I have been around the block a few times already!

Im just trying not to make a mistake; I would have literally bought a 340a on day 1 (even found one i liked) had it not been for a forum full of people saying i was nuts. 

Just trying to see if im nuts or if this is doable. I dont want to buy something and then be disappointed because i wanted it to do 10 but then find out it only does 8.5 and if you want it to do 10 its a 100k upgrade.

[glafaille]

Samurai-

Sounds like you are going about this the right way.  Plenty of smart folks on this board that are more than willing to help.  Ask lots of questions, look at lots of planes and fly as many as you can.  Most on this board are happy to give a ride to anyone that likes Mooneys.

There are lots of options out there and any plane you get will be a compromise, find one that will meet most of your missions.

[cnoe]

My $0.02...

Living on the left coast and routinely flying around and over mountains makes a turbo seem like a good idea. That translates to flying higher, at least into the teens. Pups don't tolerate high altitudes any better than humans, and its tough to keep a nasal cannula or mask on a dog. So pressurization is sounding better for said mission.

Our pup goes everywhere we go, but he wears mutt muffs for hearing protection and I don't keep him above 11-12K any longer than necessary. Preferably he stays below 10K.

Don't forget the Instrument Rating too; it's a must for your plan.

One more thing... Telling your boss that you can be home in 4 hours or less sets you up for poor ADM. Flying GA means sometimes you simply have to stay on the ground.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Mcstealth]

33 minutes ago, Samurai Husky said:

LOL. so this goes back to the original question. How much less of a plane is a Ovation Vs a Rocket? For example; I love the glass in the Ovation since it closely matches what i am using now in the Cirrus, But i could add in a G500+750+ a bunch of other stuff and still be at or below the cost of a Ovation with a G1000; 

Really it was this plane that really got me even looking at the Mooneys;

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20K+305+ROCKET&listing_id=2178772&s-type=aircraft

But then once i started to look at Mooneys, i started to look at 'all' of the Mooney's; From what i can tell people that have them, love them and the people that are selling, in general are moving up to much larger planes, or newer versions of the one that they have. 

When i talk to Cessna people, they are always talking about 'upgrading' to the next model to get more performance or more something because its 'lacking' in something.

When i talk to Cirrus people; They love the plane, but complain about space; Which i agree with, i tried to sit in the back seat and it was like the back seat of a Mustang. 

When i talk to beechcraft people, they complain how much they cost to run or how much the annuals are. 

As you can tell, I have been around the block a few times already!

Im just trying not to make a mistake; I would have literally bought a 340a on day 1 (even found one i liked) had it not been for a forum full of people saying i was nuts. 

Just trying to see if im nuts or if this is doable. I dont want to buy something and then be disappointed because i wanted it to do 10 but then find out it only does 8.5 and if you want it to do 10 its a 100k upgrade.

Nice Rocket.

Nicer 310 Ovation

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/17294-2000-mooney-ovation-310-hpaspenavidyne-air-condtioning/

 

Anything is doable. Can you train your dogs to jump up on the wing and miss the flaps? Can you train your passengers not to step on the flap  Will you put a blanket on the walkway every time you fly? Do you care for the paint and leather to keep its value? Just saying.....

Buying a Rocket and flying with animals. Well,  you are going to lose the value of any turbo aircraft that is non pressurized, when you fly with pets. It is that simple. The question really should not be if it is doable in a Rocket. It should be "how many times am I actually going to load up two big dogs?" Answer that question and you will then know if you go N/A or turbo.

Performance wise between the two? The 310 O's "are the fastest" production GA plane out there if you believe the advertisement. The Rocket is, a rocket. Get up high and go fast. Block time difference in a 1200 mile trip will be what? Maybe 25-30 minutes?

[Andy95W]

9 hours ago, Samurai Husky said:

Right now I am in the process of getting my private pilot. 

So my question is,  If you had between 150k-200k what would you get? 

#1: A crapload of training.

Nobody likes to hear this answer because it isn't as cool or sexy as an SR22 or Mooney Rocket.

[Cruiser]

2 hours ago, Samurai Husky said:

I looked at the Skylanes; I figured the 210s would be better; But again, boils down to speed; 

I know for sure that the sirrus is to small; I figured the Mooney was slightly larger with a better top end especially since i could fold down the steats and let the dogs bounce betten the luggage area and the back seats (which is what i do with my car now, lower the back seats and let the float between the trunk and back seats). I had also been looking at beechcrafts as someone told me to look at bonanza's; But those are about the same price as a 210 and you lose out on pressurization.

....snip

 

If you want a Rocket, it wants to fly high and the mission you describe is perfect for that also.

I would suggest you talk to your veterinarian about prolonged periods of high teen, low 20's altitude for your dogs.

[Samurai Husky]

So about the dogs; 

I already did research on that and found this: http://www.4pawsaviation.com/products/oxygen-hoods.php The hood unzipps in the front and can be held back with a snap; That way when its time to go up, i just have to zip close the flap and turn on the o2. From what i understand this works 100x better than regular masks and has an endorsement from some vets that now use these instead of o2 cages, since the cages lose pressure every time you open them to check the dogs vitals. My dogs can tolerate cones of shame, and thats basically what this is; Also i can put on ear muffs and they wont be able to take them off with the cone on. This is only of course if i am going up over 10k. 

I am imagining the dogs will come with me about 80% of the time; Anytime i go somewhere that i will go hiking, i plan on taking them with; The only time i wouldn't bring them would be for a day trip somewhere. 

What is so important about AC? Here in the bay area, it rarely gets above 90F and once you are up at 10k ft it gets pretty cold; So how long are you really running the AC for? unless i am missing something? 

For Training:Yep not going cheap on this one. I went with the best instructor money can buy and I am definitely paying for it. He's a Master CSI,  Gold Seal CFI. CFII, MEI. Advanced Ground Instructor and Instrument Ground Instructor, has written many books, etc etc etc. I wanted someone that i could train with from Private to IFR to ME; I must say, he is very good; I'm forced to fly the plane 99% of the time and he just jumps in if im doing something wrong where it could endanger us. Even if im not comfortable, I got the controls

Though if i were to get a Mooney, I would hire someone Mooney Specific to train me on it. The funny thing about planes is that it SO easy to have plane creep; i start looking at one plane for 50k and then next thing i know im looking at a 300k p210n. 

[ArtVandelay]

I did PHX to SQL in a J, not direct, via Palm Springs, 4.5 hours, max altitude 11000.  No O2 required, less mountains, easy peasy...you can get a nice J for 100ish.

[Godfather]

If I had your mission and experience my first choice would be a Piper Saratoga II TC.  The rear door and club seating setup is really convenient for large dogs if you remove the rear two seats.  Also I know the weather is a lot more predictable in the SW but planning on being able to return home at a moments notice as a work requirement is a tall order for a new pilot...

[MyNameIsNobody]

Eagle with "Screaming" conversion.  Plenty of space with seats folded.  Superior avionics and airframe (lower time) Engine a good fit.  Dogs and O2 are NOT a good fit.  I fly a lot at 10k and under with my Pointers in a Short Body.  I put them in collapse able kennels for a couple hour flights.  They just sleep.  Have fun with your search.

[carusoam]

Sam,

When you did the research...

1) What happens when you put an O2 hood, aka plastic bag, on your dog's head?

2) Does the dog let you know if it isn't working properly?

3) Is there a way to check a dog's O2 saturation?

4) How often will you have to check their O2?

5) With $150 device what keeps the O2 level from being too high and too low?

 

6) What does your flight instructor say regarding your choice of aircraft?

 

Sounds like you told him you want to fly a powerful plane, at high altitudes, and go to far away places...

7) What did he say?  

Slow down, take your time, get trained, and gain experience?

Please point us to his well respected list of books he wrote. I'm interested, because there aren't that many books written by any one individual regarding aspects of GA flying.  Unfortunately, the really well respected authors are no longer with... (They have flown West...)

 

I get the feeling you are going to get some answers that you don't like, and some questions that you don't want to answer publicly.  It is challenging for people to help you when you hold back so many details.

 

What keeps you from renting until you are ready to buy?

These are questions that come to the mind of a private pilot.  I'm Not a CFI.

Best regards,

-a-