What should i get?

[TWinter]

Lots of good info for you to think about. In reading your posts I see a common thread of "Since of urgency" and the need to be able to get where you are heading or back home for work within a set time frame. You seem to be counting on the speed of whatever you buy to make that happen. I know you are going to get your instrument after PPL, but it won't matter how fast the plane will get you from A to B as a VFR newly minted PP unless the weather is working in your favor. If you just wanted a fast plane because you want one, then fine. If you want a faster plane to get you from A-B because you have a timeframe to meet, or the fact you want to cut down on flight time then I'm really not sure how much benefit the Rocket will be if the weather won't let you off the ground.

I've been flying my E model for almost 5 yrs and just now starting on my IR. It took me that long to really feel good with everything going on and trying to nail my speeds and correct complex Mooney management. I'm probably older than you, maybe my learning curve is not as quick. It took a few years to learn to fly my E to the point I feel very comfortable. You sound like I very organized and well thought individual. Your finances seem well thought out as well. Since you do have disposable income would it be smarter to look at a J or F for a few years just to get a taste of Mooney management first?. Just my .02. Good luck on whatever you decide. You've come to a good place for answers.

 

-Tom 

[Samurai Husky]

I looked at the pipers, they were expensive and kinda slow; I think a beechcraft would be better than that?

As far as a Screaming Eagle; I cant even find one for sale when i do a search. Which is probably why it wasn't in my list. 

@carusoam

1. Not sure what you mean, Its not really a plastic bag, you can see that there are breathing holes to let CO2 escape. 

2. Like any device i would need one to see how it works; The reviews have been positive and they do make o2 saturation meters for dogs, so if i wanted to go full speed, i could get one of those just to be sure. I also have a vet in the family that i would consult. 

Its a fixed flow system, so in reality nothing keeps it from flowing to fast or slow; It might be something where i do a O2 meter and have to figure out the best settings. They absolutely will not go into a kennel; They will do more damage to themselves trying to get out than if i let them pass out @14kft. 

Needless to say, Im not about to take any chances with my dogs that could endanger them. If hoods dont work out, then i guess i am stuck at 8kft, but that also doesn't mean that i cant do test runs and at least try. If i got one (non-pressurized plane), I would probably fly my vet cousin out for a week and we would go fly down to PHX with the dogs, I would have her take vitals on the way and see how they are doing.

 

6. My instructor wants me to get a Cirrus. He is a die hard Cirrus fan boy and is very passionate about them. I think he even dropped hints that he would be willing to go into a partnership on a new one, but that just sounds like a bad idea. When i told him i wanted a Mooney he said 'Mooneys are good planes, but they are like old Cadillac. They were all people were talking about years ago and now they are just old cars. A Cirrus is like a Tesla, modern new and luxurious, its the new Cadillac' 

My instructor is Max Trescott; He wrote books on the G1000, IFR flight, WAAS etc. Im sure you can google him and find out everything you need to now

Nothing keeps me from renting, other than the cost, availability and the excessive requirements that need to be met in order to rent out a non-trainer plane. The rentals available to a low time pilot are pretty strict and once you move up into the better airplanes, they get much more expensive. For example, to rent a SR22 its about $350/hr wet. Though I am glad you brought this up because i went and checked our flying clubs site and it seems we do have a Mooney Acclaim M20TM/G1 for rent for $300/hr wet. but you need the following:   250 hours, 25 hours high performance, and 25 hours retractable.   Instrument rating required.  Minimum checkout time 5 hours unless at least 20 previous hours in make/model. So there is an additional cost for a check out as well. Which is something like 10hr for $250/hr or a 3hr min with a CFI.

I get the feeling that people think im 22 years old and on day one going to shoot up to 17999ft and fly to phonix on my own. Rest assured im not careless. Im 35 and drive a volt, excessive risk isnt in my vocabulary. 

So backing up a little; I'm at a place right now with interest rates, cash flows etc. where I can justify being able to buy a plane and afford it. So long as i stick to buying something in my price range, i will have no problems making payments and maybe even paying it down quicker. IF interest rates start going up, then i have a problem, which is the reason for me rushing a little. I would like to lock in the lower rates as i do feel we will be looking at 3% or more by next year, which on a plane loan puts it at about 8-9% vs 4.9%; That's about 10k difference per year and pays for many hours of flying. 

My thought process is to lock in the better rates, get a plane, find a 'Mooney' instructor and then use my plane to get my IFR, Complex etc. Once i have those then i can start planning trips and worrying about dogs etc. I dont know how hard IFR is, but i've gotten through Private Pilot Ground school in about 2 weeks. IF i were to go on a trip before IFR, it would be to PHX and through Palm Springs, which is lower than 10kft to get through (as someone else mentioned); 

By all means ask me more questions if you think you can better help me; Im not holding anything back, more or less just trying to keep the posts from turning into autobiography's. 

 

 

[Samurai Husky]

Ah so on the Topic of what i said about my job; 

that probably came off too dramatic. Its not like i am a doctor or something where i have to fly back and deliver a baby. I work in IT, so while under most circumstanced things are stable, if something decides to blow up, a company will be down, means i have to fly back and fix the problem. There are other engineers here in the bay area that could start the initial troubleshooting and there is always instances where i can do some things remote, but i am the #1 guy and the responsibility falls on me. The chances of running into a situation where 'I HAVE TO GET BACK NOW!' are pretty slim however. I think if i were caught in a situation like that AND the weather was bad, I would go back Commercial. There are about 10 flights a day from PHX to any of the 3 airports here in the bay (SJC/OAK/SFO) so i could probably get a last minute South West flight back home and then just Uber from there to the work site. Would it be expensive? yes, would i curse my self for having to do it, yes, but it would be my own fault for taking the risk.

What does a J or F get you that a 20k Rocket doesn't? When i look at the rocket, i read posts of people flying up high running LoP and getting 200kts at 16gph, when i look at the other Mooney's, it looks like yea they can do 200kts, but at 24gph. 8gph@$5/g is a extra 40/h *4 and that one flight now just costs an extra $160 *2 and thats a extra $320 round trip cost. I know planes are expensive and $320 is nothing, but that doesnt mean i shouldn't consider things like this, right? 

Again, the fear with buying a step down is having losing the money on resale; I mean if the rocket was pressurized i would have paid 300k for it and that would be my forever plane (or at least until i have kids, which at this rate might be a long way away); 

[ArtVandelay]

If you can be flexible with your flying (i.e. Let the weather dictate when you leave), don't need to fly above 17500 and usually are at 10000 or less, need room for 4 on occasion and trips will generally be less than 750nm, and want efficiency and reasonable maintenance costs, you can't go wrong with a J. 

[carusoam]

Sam,

You have come to the right place to find out about all things Mooney.

We have 22 year old people that come here asking the same questions.  We also have people here that are octogenarians.

One of us has flown around the globe using Dad's Ovation to become the youngest person to accomplish this feat.

Age doesn't really become a limiting factor to flying safely.

Not staying focussed on the important details and Poor decision making skills in aviation have been the limitation of many a smart and highly educated pilot.  Wealthy or poor, Gravity has the same effects on the human body.

The thoughts I have shared are intended to open the conversation of what it takes to get you to the level that you want to get to.  Keeping both eyes open as you go.

Imagine a person you don't know, that is trying to help you select a Mooney, based on the way other people around here have done it.

Often, they try to determine what their mission or flight profile will look like over the next decade (or eight years). The challenge is they learn so much about how they can use a plane or not use one in their first year or so after getting the PPL.

Not staying focussed on the important details has made your question extra interesting...

You are showing interest in:

1) Learning to fly.

2) Getting an IR.

3) Buying a high performance plane.

4) Flying with pets.

5) Using O2 systems.

I understand that you may be different than most people, smarter than most people, learn at a higher rate than most people, and have excess cash compared to most people.  Most people spread this out over several different threads over time...

Do you have the focus, drive, time and interest for achieving a higher level in aviation?

One of our high achievers here has grown his personal business (software industry).  He was using a Bravo as his personal ride.  His company used a turbine plane for travel.  His insurance company gave him some guidance of how to use the turbine personally.  Insurance companies have a way of using math and money to put limits on the pilot's imagination.  He is not much older than you...

I am familiar with Mr. Tresscotts work. I was referring to the books on every PP's shelf regarding stick and rudder skills, weather and the IFR system. When you get a chance, ask Mr. Trescott his thoughts on the longstanding limitations of the G1000 system.  Many pilots have been waiting for the next software or hardware update that is always around the corner.  We actually seem to be getting closer...

I like that you are here. 

Have you seen these...http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/list/?pcid=17527&dlr=1

All American is a company that has a significant focus on selling pre-owned Mooneys.  Wait til you see how mission creep can effect you.  Visit with Jimmy and David for professional insight on buying and selling a Mooney.

Best regards,

-a-

[bonal]

Welcome Husk, Please don't take offense but you sound like your trying to convince yourself that you can take on some real risky flight regimes with little consequence. Spend some time looking into accident reports and you would be amazed at how much experience some of the pilots have and still end up dead. I am not saying you can't achieve your goals but this is an environment that will bite your ass and not let go. When you mention some of the requirements the clubs have for high performance rentals its for a time texted reason. I realize you are training on a high performance Cirrus but it's not so much about the choice of airplane but how you intend to fly. As a VFR only pilot I don't have nearly as complicated go no go choice to make as an IFR has to make. As for your instructors Mooney comment yes it is an old design but so is a P51 and the Mooney wing is far superior to most. The way I see it is a Cirrus is a lot of icing with not as much cake and a Mooney is a lot of cake with not so much icing. I wish you well and am so happy to here of another new pilot joining our dwindling community regardless of what brand / model you choose. The only trait I sense in reading your posts is possibly impatience. You certainly are doing your homework but flying 1000 miles from home is a lot different than running around the Bay Area with you instructor there to help if things go wrong. Above all enjoy the experience this part of your flying is the most magical of all. Your learning to fly dude and that's awesome.

[Samurai Husky]

IDK, I look at flying as more then 'just learning' For me its a life long dream that i never thought was possible. Growing up I ALWAYS wanted to be a pilot; Unfortunately my grandfather died in a plane crash when i was 5, because of that, my mother discouraged me at every opportunity of going down that road. So i just never thought it was even a consideration. Honestly, it wasn't until maybe 2 years ago that i came to the realization that its not to late, but after looking at the costs and the amount of money it would take, i brushed it off and continued to work; What a difference 2 years makes, major promotion, a few good moves in the market and now I came to realize that financially this is possible. 

But even then, i entered in with a very pessimistic view. Yea, i can afford one. The question became, can i actually fly one. I was never very good at book learning, never really good at school in general, so i had the fear that i would start this and realize how far over my head i actually was. But you know what? I gobbled up ground school like it was a best selling novel. The concepts, ideas, reasons all just made sense and it clicked. Then I actually started to physically fly a plane; The fear here is, would i be able to do that, and honestly the jury is still out on this one. Maybe its just how a Cirrus flies, but to me it's uncomfortable. I am definitely making progress, but i know I have a long way to go. For the past few weeks i have only been able to fly once a week because of various factors. weather, schedule, instructor availability, plane availability etc. and it is literally KILLING me. Maybe this is something that all new pilots go through, but i really feel like a kid learning to drive and cant wait to get back in the pilot seat again. Maybe after 500 hours the excitement subsides and it becomes more about the destination than the journey, only time will tell on that. 

Like in the Twin forums, a lot of people confused my enthusiasm with over zealousness. I take flying very seriously, I know that there are a million and 1 things that i will need to learn in the next 500 hours. As they say, experience is earned not learned. 

I like the idea of jumping into a complex and hiring a teacher to get me up to speed; I think there is more value to gain experience in your own plane than a rental. Which is why i would rather buy what i want up front and then treat it 'like' a rental until i am comfortable. 

So thats a little bit more about me. Maybe that helps, maybe it doesnt. Im not afraid of being told things i dont want to hear as i just got a bunch of that from the twin forums. 

One of the concerns i have is plane creep; Again, you start looking at 60k bonanza's and before you know it your looking at a 500k SR22, back down to 100k J's back up to 300k p210n's back down to 150k rockets; back up to 300k Ovations. I have the feeling that a P210n is just way more then i will need 90% of the time and why pay that much more for the extra 10% when you can just rent. 

 

[Yooper Rocketman]

Well, I may be the first Rocket owner to respond, but there are several of us on the forum.  I echo Mike Elliot's comment to get with a good Mooney instructor (of which I believe he is one, but in Florida).  I would even advise to do so before you purchase.  Don Kaye is a very well respected Mooney instructor that was doing this back when I was on a much earlier Mooney Forum (in the 90's).  Not intended to give away his age, but he's been teaching in Mooney's a long time (sorry Don).  

You're looking at a lot of airplane for a newly minted pilot.  If you sense some apprehension on this forum, it's because we've lost some member and it hurts.  We lost a recent one, in a Rocket, that was a low time pilot. He was very serious about his training and flew a lot, which helps in retaining what you learn.  But fast planes are much less forgiving of mistakes.  Flying with someone like Don will get you familiar with the plane, and a verbal exchange of information will go a ton faster than pecking at the keyboard.  I doubt there is any scenario Don hasn't seen (like new pilots training in hot Mooney's).  He's not a real Rocket fan (he owns a much newer long body) so that may be the only issue being he may try to massage you away from the Rocket.

Tom Sullivan

[MyNameIsNobody]

Controller.com

Mooney Eagle.  1999 with under 400 total time.  $160k.  A tremendous value in my opinion.

[carusoam]

Thanks Tom,

You briefly gave the proper words to describe what I took three pages to not quite get right.

I am better at unbridled and endless optimism...

Best regards,

-a-

[Jim Peace]

18 minutes ago, Samurai Husky said:

I know that there are a million and 1 things that i will need to learn in the next 500 hours.

For me it was 5000 hours before I realized what the heck I was doing........and now many years later I cannot believe I was sent out with only 3000 hours to fly passengers in a Lear as PIC..

If my brother was not coming with me in two weeks to ferry my M20C from CA to NJ I would invite you to go with me to see that it can get real spooky very fast.....

In all of these small lawn mowers with wings just make sure you are prepared with plan A, B , C and D......have days to spare and 2 credit cards with ultra high limits....

Also for a machine that will be a true trans con bird you need to be proactive with mx.  The annual inspection will not cut it....whatever you plan to spend on mx at your annual you should really double or triple it for proactive stuff throughout the year......If you take stuff to book limits you will be stuck in podunk usa at 5pm Friday night with no mechanic till Monday morning and not fixed until days after that.....

 

[Samurai Husky]

Any plane i get after private i plan on seeking a CSI for specifically that plane. I dont look at planes like cars, where 15 mins behind the wheel and you have a feeling for the steering, braking, acceleration etc. I look at planes as one offs, meaning each one is completely different from the next. Im glad you dropped Don's name; should i decide on a Mooney, i will defiantly give him a call. 

The reasoning behind the Rocket was the cost/performance; I can get a Rocket for 140k, put 75k in glass and end up with plane equal or better than an Ovation 3; Granted a O3 is newer, but newer doesn't always mean better. Looking at other planes, you start to get bigger with more payload. But then i ask myself, how often will i need the extra payload? IE the P210 or A36; If 80% or more of the time its just me, or me and the dogs, going to a 6 seat might not make a lot of sense right now. 

If i wanted 100% safety; i would find a way to just get a SR22;  But at 400k for a G3 turbo, it just doesn't seem to be worth the price. Especially with how many are flooding the market. Not only that, but i find them uncomfortable to fly; Its hard getting used to that left control stick since i am dominantly right handed. 

 

@Jim Peace

Its really funny you say that; My instructor just got back from a ferry trip; Minnesota > Redding, CA; Well they never made it to Redding. They chose a small airport in south east Colorado to land and refuel; The reason for that airport is that it was far enough away from the Rockies that they would  be able to get up to altitude with out circling. They had also been experiencing heavy turbulence and a strong head wind, so i am sure they were guzzling fuel. Well on landing they hit a stone an blew a tire. They had to over night a tire to this tiny little town that had no mechanic on staff. Some airport attendant offered to help and as they jacked up the plane, the jack slipped and went straight into the wing, badly damaging the wing. They had to bribe someone at the airport to drive them 150 miles to the nearest rent a car place, to then drive another 4 hours to Denver to get a flight back to then rent another car and drive 3 hours back to Redding where they both left their cars. 

Needless to say, it taught me a good lesson. Dont choose airports that are in the middle of no where! If you have to, stop early to refuel. A lot of people also suggested carrying spare parts if you have the payload to do so. Small things like a tire, magneto, or similar will save tons of cash should something happen in flight. Obviously you can carry one of everything, but for the things that are easy, but might not be easily found, it might make sense.

Overall the more people talk about it; The less likely I am to try Chicago any time soon; being a native from there, I know full well how the weather can be completely random. 

I would still like to try and get to PHX sometime this year. My goal is to fly there for TG or Xmas. So maybe that will help put a timeline on what i am thinking as far as long distance flying goes. Chicago would be nice by next summer. Weather the trip is in a Mooney or not; I think we are still debating that. 

Right now I have been happy just flying in circles working on my corsswind patterns

You say ultra high limits; Whats considered a ultra high limit? 

 

[Oldguy]

2 hours ago, Samurai Husky said:

....

What does a J or F get you that a 20k Rocket doesn't? When i look at the rocket, i read posts of people flying up high running LoP and getting 200kts at 16gph, when i look

at the other Mooney's, it looks like yea they can do 200kts, but at 24gph. 8gph@$5/g is a extra 40/h *4 and that one flight now just costs an extra $160 *2 and thats a extra $320 round trip cost. I know planes are expensive and $320 is nothing, but that doesnt mean i shouldn't consider things like this, right?

....

Welcome aboard!

I went back and looked at the mission you defined in your original post. With the exception of Chicago or beyond, everything seems to be 600 nm or less. So if I look at my J and your Rocket, I will burn 10 gph at 150 kts for 4 hours or 40 gals. You will beat me by an hour at 200 kts, but at 16 gph, you'll eat up an extra 8 gals each way. True, 16*$5 per trip is not a lot of $$ for a trip of that length, but enough of them add up. If you take those figures and put with the lower cost to get into a J, you have enough cash to get your commercial ticket and maybe an ME as well. (I might be a bit sloppy on my fuel burn. I typically true out at 156 kts on 9.2 gph. YMMV.)

I also understand your concern of buying in low, selling at a loss and ending up with more into your "forever" plane. Been there and done that as, I believe, many of us have. But you can't take away the fun we had while flying our "starter" plane. So keep on with the training, get a good Mooney-specific CFI and understand whatever model you choose, you are flying one of the few personal airliners available.

Enjoy.

John

[ArtVandelay]

8 minutes ago, Oldguy said:

Welcome aboard!

I went back and looked at the mission you defined in your original post. With the exception of Chicago or beyond, everything seems to be 600 nm or less. So if I look at my J and your Rocket, I will burn 10 gph at 150 kts for 4 hours or 40 gals. You will beat me by an hour at 200 kts, but at 16 gph, you'll eat up an extra 8 gals each way. True, 16*$5 per trip is not a lot of $$ for a trip of that length, but enough of them add up. If you take those figures and put with the lower cost to get into a J, you have enough cash to get your commercial ticket and maybe an ME as well. (I might be a bit sloppy on my fuel burn. I typically true out at 156 kts on 9.2 gph. YMMV.)

Yea, 10 definitely high, since I'm usually not at max gross weight, I'm closer to 8gph,150kts....which match the POH BTW, so 4 hrs is more like 32 gal.

[Jim Peace]

26 minutes ago, Samurai Husky said:

You say ultra high limits; Whats considered a ultra high limit? 

I would say enough to buy parts and pay for labor for around 10k and on top of that enough for 2 or 3 full fare short notice airline tickets and a one way car rental drop off....plus a few nights in a hotel

I have been comfortable with 30k limits on my cards...and have more than 1 card like that.....

Parts and many times labor on the road may cost double or triple......people know you are stranded and many will take advantage of that.....happened to a friend of mine recently in Henderson NV....a simple alternator fix turned out to be 5000 bucks.......this was on a bonanza.....they totally screwed him

Edited March 28, 2016 by Jim Peace

[Samurai Husky]

good on the credit card then. I have 2 with 20k limits on them with out even asking. One of them is a Amex that i was going to cancel; But they say there is 'no limit' on the card as long as i call them first. 

I guess thats why you pay the $75/yr in fees. 

For the most part i think i am pretty safe being stranded for a few days; I work from home and am remote 95% of the time; There are times where i just wanted to get in a car and drive to Phoenix because it was cold and things were handled. If i had, i doubt anyone would have noticed. There was one time no one saw me for a month, as long as i got my work done, it didnt madder if i was at home or on a beach somewhere. The only time i madders is when things go horribly wrong and i need to be there to figure out whats happening. 

[Seth]

Welcome to the land of aviation.  Glad you are enjoying your training.  As many have said, flexibility and risk analysis is key.  If weather strikes and the plan just doesn't look good and you have to get back, as you mentioned you'll fly commercial.  Good call.

A mentor pilot for a good number of hours may be a good idea when stepping into the high performance realm.  The fact that you are learning on a Cirrus does differ from many pilots.  Do you have any Cessna 172 time?  Almost everyone has some in their logbook.  Not necessary at all, but it'll help you see how vastly different true training aircraft are compared to cruiser like a Cirrus or a true sports sedan of a Mooney.

I do know of a close colleague who has now close to 2000 hours in twins.  He has only an MEL license.  He is not legal to fly a single and never has.  Decided he wanted to fly, bought a Piper Aztec, flew it for 500-700 hours, bought an Aerostar (pressurized piston twin), and now looking at turbines.  It is possible to learn on and fly a twin.  But you'll have higher insurance rates and will most likely need a mentor pilot for the first 50 to 100 hours or so. 

However, as mentioned, it frightens many of us due to the accident reports.   Many will scoff at this idea from a risk standpoint, but if you have a good instructor / mentor pilot, are smart about risk analysis, and have the funds, it could work.  Be careful, we don't want to read about you in an NTSB report.  If you EVER think to yourself, is this the beginning of an NTSB report.  STOP.  Abort, divert, whatever.  There's a reason you're thinking it.  Break the accident chain.

The 310 HP upgrade can be performed on the Ovation or the Eagle - both normally aspirated.  The Mooney is a great plane for transportation and long distances.  Great value, very efficient.

If you are going to fly over the Rockies a lot, you are going to want turbo.  The Rocket is a modified mid length body aircraft and it is a great plane, but it does drink fuel.  Just like any of the big bore Mooney's.  It is slightly more efficient than the M20M Bravo, and much less expensive than the M20TN Acclaim.  It's lighter as those two are long body aircraft by about 200 pounds.  The cargo area is bigger on the long body, which may better for your dogs.

Good luck!  With the puppies (all dogs are puppies) I'd consider getting something pressurized.  This is not normal and many on the board again will not be happy with this suggestion.  Maybe continue flying now, get your MEL as well as your IFR ticket, and see about purchasing a pressurized twin.  Get a mentor pilot.

You could also get the Mooney for now, knowing you are going to step up into something like a PA-46 or another pressurized aircraft. 

I personally do not like the idea of the dogs on O2.  I think a pressurized cabin would be better for all.  Or, fly at 8,000 feet as mentioned.

Good luck but most importantly, BE SAFE.

Pressurized Singles:  Cessna P210, Piper PA-46

Pressurized Twins:  Cessna 340, Aerostar, Baron 58P, Duke (I'd go with the Cessna 340 or the Aerostar, but the Aerostar is really meant for very experience pilots).

-Seth

 

 

[DonMuncy]

Husk

To me, there are a couple of aspects to your situation. Learning to fly the plane is problematic, but not insurmountable. The faster, more powerful and more complex, the more there is to absorb. This is why it is so important to have a Mooney specific instructor, knowledgeable about the plane you are contemplating. But, no matter what, you will eventually get that all sorted out. My first plane (ownership) was/is a 231. It took a while with engine management complexities, etc.

However, the more troublesome aspect is the judgement necessary for true piloting. An instructor can definitely help in showing what to look for, but the real learning (in my opinion) has to come from doing it. Flying in good weather close to home, like what is typically done in training, simply doesn't do much for getting one ready to take on "traveling" by plane. Unfortunately, the only way to learn that is by doing it. And it takes a lot of hours. There are no shortcuts I am aware of. The really tough part is that in order to advance, you have to continually push your limits. But if you push too much, it gets very dangerous. So balancing that advancement/safety issue is what takes all the time. Continual training and patience is the key.

Just my opinion. Others may disagree. Or maybe I'm just slow to learn.

[Yetti]

Pilatus PC12  I will fly right seat.

[sailon]

YIKES.  I have been shadowing this thread, and feel I must speak up.  I obtained my instrument rating 11 years ago in Grummans and Pipers, have owned a Piper Arrow, which I was comfortable with flying "in the system."  THEN, my CFI let me train in his 252.  I thought I was comfortable with instrument flying.  Well there is instrument flying, and then there is instrument flying in a high performance airplane.  Also, there is training when the sun is out, and then there is actual IFR when the rain is flying.  IFR training is the mastery of procedures, and flying in the National Airspace System.  Throw a turbo Mooney into the mix, and you are adding speed control, engine management, autopilot management, and expectations that ATC places on fast aircraft.  To sum up, I had to learn instrument flying all over again when I stepped into the 252.  I just cannot comprehend attempting to learn instrument flight in a turbocharged Mooney.  Also, the examiner will test you on all of the aircraft systems during your instrument check ride.  (GPS, autopilot, etc)  Suggest you get your instrument in a basic Piper or Cessna without the fancy widgets, then move up to a complex aircraft.  At the risk of flames, a fixed gear Saratoga or 206 would be an excellent choice for your mission.  Now that I have been trained on the 252, I am enjoying my new (to me) "F"

[Samurai Husky]

Thanks Seth, 

This is a long thread and i did talk about 340a's earlier. I ruled them out for now because after joining the twin cessna forums, several of the members talked me out of it. Pretty much all of them said that i needed to build complex time first and why build complex time in a twin when it will cost you 2x as much. Its also probably more plane then i need today; Yea, the pressurization would be great for the dogs, they would have plenty of room to run around in the back, but as other members pointed out, why build time on something that will run $550/hr or more, plus the cost of a mentor pilot;

Thats what brought my thinking down and started looking that the P210N's; But unless you get the Trurbo version, i hear they have some serious issues with power specifically with climb speed. Which was the whole reason for the Silver Eagle upgrade, but now you are talking well into the 600k+ range. I have seen a few specially upgraded P210N's that take the HP up to 350 but now you are back up to 300k and no glass or FIKI; Sure you can buy a low end P210n and do the Vitatoe upgrade (the other one is a Javalin, but i cant find any information on that so i guess they went under, and rocket no longer does its cessna upgrades); but the vitatoe upgrade is something around 130k; plus even finding something with glass already in it, the asking price is expensive, so with out blinking you already jump back up to 300k or more.

This is what lead me to Mooney; Again, A rocket can be had for <140k glass upgrade 70k (maybe more need to do more research); So for 210k i get 200kt cruz and full glass and TKS. Though its still a 1980's plane. 

Which is why i started to ask about the Ovation, since the ovation already comes with a G1000 system and some with TKS; But then were back above that magic 300k; 

Then i saw this today http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1292535/2005-mooney-m20m-gx-bravo

Which actually fits the bill i think? And its actually only 50 miles away. though it only has about 400hrs til OH.

So with out pressurization, it comes down to probably a M20M or a Rocket. though the M20M i lose out on almost 300lbs of useful load. 

----------------------

Man you people are fast to respond; Every time i type something out, there are 3 replied waiting!!!

The common theme seems to be, the plane is too fast.. but why do i have to fly the plane at full speed? It just seems logical that if you are learning something that you would hold back on the throttle a little? Why cant i simply fly at 150kts?  Also it seems that the difference in some of the suggestions of planes isnt that far off. If the plane can do 150kts and a Rocket does 200kts, is the 50kts really going to make that much of a difference? 

Im a pretty pragmatic person. If its too overwhelming i slow things down. If its like sailon says and learning IFR and complex is to hard, then i will simply hold off on IFR until i can fly the plane right. If anything that puts limits on what i can and cant do.

TBH, feeling kinda beat up here. Every time i have my heart set on a plane and join a forum to get info, i get beat down  at this rate im going to end up flying a sr20 even though i hate them....

 

 

[Godfather]

I'm really enjoying the longer well thought out responses on this thread.  Part of the problem I'm having is I really consider the sr20, sr22, ovation, bravo etc the same aircraft.  All are fast and slick aircraft with a lot of capability.  When you master flying the sr20 IMO you should easily be able to transition to the other models.  What aspects besides flying with the left hand do you not like about the Cirrus?  You can buy a nice used sr20 for $125k if you look hard.

Edit:

We also have two dogs that weigh around 130 lbs combined.  One is a young high powered dog the other one is older with multiple surgeries under her belt.  I have not found a good way to travel with them in the Mooney.  It is hard for older individuals to get on the wing and turned around to fit in the back seat.  Our dogs would have a hard time doing this without damaging the aircraft.  I would practice having the dogs get into the cirrus before buying the planes mentioned above.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Godfather

[Seth]

29 minutes ago, Samurai Husky said:

Thanks Seth, 

This is a long thread and i did talk about 340a's earlier. I ruled them out for now because after joining the twin cessna forums, several of the members talked me out of it. Pretty much all of them said that i needed to build complex time first and why build complex time in a twin when it will cost you 2x as much. Its also probably more plane then i need today; Yea, the pressurization would be great for the dogs, they would have plenty of room to run around in the back, but as other members pointed out, why build time on something that will run $550/hr or more, plus the cost of a mentor pilot;

Thats what brought my thinking down and started looking that the P210N's; But unless you get the Trurbo version, i hear they have some serious issues with power specifically with climb speed. Which was the whole reason for the Silver Eagle upgrade, but now you are talking well into the 600k+ range. I have seen a few specially upgraded P210N's that take the HP up to 350 but now you are back up to 300k and no glass or FIKI; Sure you can buy a low end P210n and do the Vitatoe upgrade (the other one is a Javalin, but i cant find any information on that so i guess they went under, and rocket no longer does its cessna upgrades); but the vitatoe upgrade is something around 130k; plus even finding something with glass already in it, the asking price is expensive, so with out blinking you already jump back up to 300k or more.

This is what lead me to Mooney; Again, A rocket can be had for <140k glass upgrade 70k (maybe more need to do more research); So for 210k i get 200kt cruz and full glass and TKS. Though its still a 1980's plane. 

Which is why i started to ask about the Ovation, since the ovation already comes with a G1000 system and some with TKS; But then were back above that magic 300k; 

Then i saw this today http://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/1292535/2005-mooney-m20m-gx-bravo

Which actually fits the bill i think? And its actually only 50 miles away. though it only has about 400hrs til OH.

So with out pressurization, it comes down to probably a M20M or a Rocket. though the M20M i lose out on almost 300lbs of useful load. 

----------------------

Man you people are fast to respond; Every time i type something out, there are 3 replied waiting!!!

The common theme seems to be, the plane is too fast.. but why do i have to fly the plane at full speed? It just seems logical that if you are learning something that you would hold back on the throttle a little? Why cant i simply fly at 150kts?  Also it seems that the difference in some of the suggestions of planes isnt that far off. If the plane can do 150kts and a Rocket does 200kts, is the 50kts really going to make that much of a difference? 

Im a pretty pragmatic person. If its too overwhelming i slow things down. If its like sailon says and learning IFR and complex is to hard, then i will simply hold off on IFR until i can fly the plane right. If anything that puts limits on what i can and cant do.

TBH, feeling kinda beat up here. Every time i have my heart set on a plane and join a forum to get info, i get beat down  at this rate im going to end up flying a sr20 even though i hate them....

 

 

Don't feel beat up.  It's just a ton to learn and proper decision making when it comes to risk is a big issue.  This is more of a concern vs trying to beat you up.

If you have not yet flown a Mooney or sat in one, give us your home airport (Bay area CA, right?) and I'm sure someone will take you for a ride and let you sit in the left seat on the ground. You'll love the Mooney.

Complex time, then MEL or pressurized single.  That's the traditional route.

The other way to go is mentor pilot in a pressurized twin.  It's been done and is rare, and will cost more.

I know I speak for the while group that we are all pleased and excited with your passion for aviation.

The Cirrus is a heck of a plane.  I prefer retracts and Mooney's especially.  The Bonanza is a good plane too, as are certain Cessna's and Pipers.  Again, I went with Mooney's.  First and then again when I upgraded.  

The Rocket is quite a plane.  With lower time a mentor pilot in the Rocket may make sense too!

Let us know the plane you eventually pick!  Regardless, make sure to do a model and manufacturer specific prebuy.

-Seth

 

 

[Samurai Husky]

Both my dogs are getting up in age but they totally dont reflect it; Thats the life with Huskys; they will run 10 miles the day before they die. 

I have one that would probably be pretty happen sitting behind the back seats in the luggage area; I need to see how big that space is, but based on the pictures it might be enough space. She like to hide in cubby holes and weird places.. The other is a 65lb lap dog, as i type this she is lying next to me snoring. Both dont have problems clearing a 3ft jump; The lap dog will jump into the trunk of my volt which is about a 4ft clearance. The other one is a little 'husky' she would need some help or at least some training getting into a airplane. I also have an aluminum truck ramp i could use for them to walk up and just leave it chained up at the airport. Worse case scenario, i pick them up and toss them in.

Im based in KPAO; actually the flying club has a Mooney Acclaim; So if that is anything like the bravo or 20k, i can probably get the key and check out the inside. I think the Acclaim is a long body, so there might be more room then the bravo and 20K? not sure. 

Im just not allowed to rent it because of the requirements. Whats even funnier is that its parked 2 spaces away from the Cirrus i am training on (according to the parking space on the website), just never looked at it.

For the SR20; i just dont like the left stick; It feels unnatural to me. Especially turning left. We were in some pretty heavy cross wind on Sunday and i had to apply almost full left pressure to make the sharp bank for the manuver. That had my hand literally pressed up against the side of the plane. If i needed to apply more i would of had to change my grip and that is something i dont want to think about if i need to be applying that much pressure. ; Also the electronic trim on it is incredibly touchy for trimming left/right,just flicking the knob and you are over trimmed. up down its very slow which isnt too bad. 

I like that i can climb at about 1kft/m and when we were doing stall practice, the dang thing just didnt want to stall, so thats actually a plus. My instructor told me to stay away from G1s and 2's; Since he is a Cirrus expert i would take his advice. The G1 and 2's just have sooo many electrical troubles that they didnt fix until G3. So i would want to start there. .

 

[N33GG]

It really doesn't matter how great your instructor is, or how well you have thought things out.  For a long, long time, your are going to be dangerously short of skill and experience (not to mention judgement).  And a lack of skill and experience will eventually catch up with you and will bite you, just as they have bitten everyone on this forum.  

My advice is to slow down.  Enjoy the journey.  Stay alive.

Good luck.

Edited March 29, 2016 by N33GG