2 Mooneys Touch Mid-Air Inbound to OSH?

[Gary0747]

1 hour ago, gsengle said:

agree. However it doesn’t make it any more our right to demand that the people involved somehow have an obligation to be “open” with anonymous people on an Internet forum because somehow this implies a lack of safety culture...

No where have I demanded any such thing. I am not wanting to investigate.   I am not bullying anyone. Read my post.  My point was that if you want to have a meaningful outcome to the root cause of all this there needs to be a culture that guides the process and I am concerned from what I have been reading that it may not be present for who ever is investigating.   Never before have I seen a secrecy agreement with all the people who witnessed an incident. I do not believe that will help make the best outcome. I do not believe it is right to keep any of the information controlled and fed selectively to the investigators.  I do not think any of the information will remain secret in the long run. So what is the point in hiding anything. 

[KSMooniac]

I agree completely. I don't care who was involved, but it would be nice to eventually know what the chain of events were that led to the incident and what is being done to prevent it in the future. I have not done any formation flying but would like to and have been considering the Caravan next year. I already have Oshkosh on the calendar. If the gag order extends past the point where everything has been resolved that would not encourage my participation in the Caravan. 

I'm not caravan leadership, and beyond the vague official statement, nothing official has been shared, and for good reason. I fully expect that a full accounting will eventually be shared once the dust settles and that any changes that need to be made in the interest of safety will surely be made.

The mob mentality and assumption of a dangerous/secret/anti-safety culture are completely off-base and not true. Just let the process work and I think all will eventually be satisfied. Some patience is needed, not wild accusations or assumptions about the incident. There is plenty of time for an investigation and any procedural changes to be implemented before the 2020 clinics and Caravan spin up.

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[Steve W]

I think the implication that even once the incident reports are released that we(who don't fly formation) won't understand is a bit problematic. I learn stuff from every incident/accident I read about even if it has no correlation to the flying I do, I read about airlines, helicopters, etc. So even though this was formation flying that I will never do, I still want to know what happened, maybe there's an ADM or CRM takeaway for the rest of us, or maybe just a cautionary tale.

[bradp]

28 minutes ago, Gary0747 said:

 I do not think any of the information will remain secret in the long run. So what is the point in hiding anything. 

Nobody's sworn to any type of secrecy - planes N numbers are right on the ASIS database.  A majority of the carvaner's and a bunch of the Mooneyspace social participants laid eyes on the damaged planes, and the pilots are not anonymous.  There's a 2019 Mooney caravan video on youtube with clips of 1) the formation element that had the accident flying together  2) damage visible on the two accident aircraft, and 3) even a cameo with the FAA guys inspecting damage to the leading edge of one of the aircraft.  Nothing is hidden - the hush hush is just trying to be respectful of the pilot's wishes until the dust settles for their perceived (founded or unfounded) concerns.  If the pilots said let's talk about this now and caravan said No No! I'd be one of the first to start talking.  Since the pilots said wait please- we can do that for what - another month...?  Once the pilots say let's discuss, well then... let's discuss.  They're both on Mooneyspace... until then let's just be patient.  On an internet forum.  In an age where the waiting is the hardest part.  

[KSMooniac]

I think the implication that even once the incident reports are released that we(who don't fly formation) won't understand is a bit problematic. I learn stuff from every incident/accident I read about even if it has no correlation to the flying I do, I read about airlines, helicopters, etc. So even though this was formation flying that I will never do, I still want to know what happened, maybe there's an ADM or CRM takeaway for the rest of us, or maybe just a cautionary tale.

I think it will be crystal clear...just be patient.

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[Hank]

1 hour ago, KSMooniac said:

The mob mentality and assumption of a dangerous/secret/anti-safety culture are completely off-base and not true. Just let the process work and I think all will eventually be satisfied. Some patience is needed, not wild accusations or assumptions about the incident. There is plenty of time for an investigation and any procedural changes to be implemented before the 2020 clinics and Caravan spin up.

There's no "assumption of secrecy" here, there are multiple people who "know what happened" who have stated that they will not discuss it. Video of dents on youtube is news to me, but is there any discussion there of how the metal came to be bent? You know, old fashioned hand-waving where one plane did this and another plane did that, then this piece touched that piece, God smiled and no one died? 

When the basic facts of what happened, when and how are hidden, there is often an assumption of guilt, which will only go away if the basic facts prove there is no guilt. But the longer they are hidden, the more difficult it will be to clear up afterwards. Waiting on the feds to release the data is petty and childish. But it will come out, and either the Caravan's reputation will be even muddier than it has just become, or it will show that there really was nothing to hide (which many people will not believe, because why would it be hidden without reason?), and once again the Caravan's reputation is mud, maybe a little less mud than if the facts are incriminating, but still mud.

It saddens me to see the group-think "cover it up so no one sees anything" in this instance, when every other aviation accident is reviewed in detail, then revised as the reports come out. There's always something to learn. But I guess the great unwashed, who don't fly formation, don't have anything to learn from this incident, at least according to the great formation pilots here. Because no one else is ever close to another plane outside of the Caravan and it's sponsored training programs (yeah, right!). If you feel like the Caravan is getting beat on now, it will only intensify as time drags and smug people withhold as much as possible.

So there was an incident. That's a bad thing. But it wasn't fatal. That's a good thing. The Caravan immediately went silent, nobody is talking about it when we always discuss accidents. That's a bad thing. Caravanners are saying that "we" (non-formation pilots) have nothing to learn. That's a bad thing. We are being told that we don't even need to know what happened. That's a bad thing. We're being told to wait on the official government reports to even learn the basic facts beyond the vanilla, zero-content official statement that "two planes touched." That's a bad thing. The bad things are outweighing the good, and all of them after the initial metal-to-metal contact have been brought on by the Caravan itself.

As long as the Caravan and its members behave like this, the world's perception of the Mooney Caravan will continue to degrade, and no report by the FAA, NTSB or court of law will ever bring it all the way back. And yes, the muck will rub off on all mass arrivals, all airshows and all Mooney pilots--so yes, we all have a stake in this.

[eman1200]

So, what happened?





I kid, I kid.

[steingar]

Doesn’t matter who hit who. What is important is no matter how professional and wonderful the preparation and training, it didn’t bloody well work. The response needs to be to determine why it didn’t work and what changes will be made to make certain it does so in the future.

To put this in perspective, Oshkosh has been running this NOTAM system for decades. 10,000 airplanes a year do it. They’ve had probably hundreds of thousands of airplanes do the FISK approach, and there’s been one midair. The Caravan has had perhaps a hundredth the number of airplanes (and I suspect I’m being very generous at that) and have now had a midair.  

[Gary0747]

I have always felt the primary driver of aviation accidents was not the skill level of a pilot but the delta between the skill level and what the pilot perceived their skill level to be. Ie the humility factor.   The low time pilot who understands their skill and limits can actually be a safer pilot than a high time extensively trained pilot who believes their skill will allow them to do most anything.  

[N9201A]

The mob mentality and assumption of a dangerous/secret/anti-safety culture are completely off-base and not true. Just let the process work and I think all will eventually be satisfied. Some patience is needed, not wild accusations or assumptions about the incident.

THIS!

[Bob_Belville]

Well y’all have been quite chatty while my grandson and I have been on a grand tour of the West post AirVenture. We’re finally out of the big hills having flown from Grand Canyon to Wiley Post today. (5.7 hrs, non stop.) This was my 4th Caravan in a row.

I was active in organizing what I think was the largest clinic, the MAG group. We actively encouraged “newbies” to try formation flying as practiced by the Mooney Caravan. These experienced pilots got several hours of “instruction” (though that term is not quite appropriate) from safety pilots who are well qualified by previous experience, our wing lead is active Air Force instructor, we had retired military pilots and airline captains.

One weekend does not make a newbie a Top Gun but this was Caravan XXII and in my view we’ve gotten better each year.

No one has asked me to keep quiet about the event that occurred in the last element. I talked briefly to both pilots and I saw the damaged rudder and wing. I have nothing to say because I don’t know what happened.

Folks like Brad, Paul, and others who have flown multiple Caravans and clinics are happy to discuss formation flying as practiced by Mooney Caravan. I won’t speak for anyone else but I can’t add anything useful to the info already offered. A couple of planes flying in a mutually agreed upon formation came together. The exact what and why will come out only when the pilots tell us.

Guys, what we do, fly, has inherent risk. Two days ago marked 50 years from my PPL, I am the greatest risk factor involved in my flying experience. I have made and continue to make mistakes. (So far I’ve terrified my grandson at least twice that he’s posted about... nether was during Caravan which he judged “cool”.)

To a friend who didn’t fly Caravan this year I observed that “stuff happens”. Most of the time we get away with it, sometimes we get bit in the backside.

If I don’t fly Caravan next year it will be because someone has pulled the plug on an old fool, not because I count Caravan as particularly risky.


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[Shadrach]

On 8/3/2019 at 10:03 PM, steingar said:

Doesn’t matter who hit who. What is important is no matter how professional and wonderful the preparation and training, it didn’t bloody well work. The response needs to be to determine why it didn’t work and what changes will be made to make certain it does so in the future.

To put this in perspective, Oshkosh has been running this NOTAM system for decades. 10,000 airplanes a year do it. They’ve had probably hundreds of thousands of airplanes do the FISK approach, and there’s been one midair. The Caravan has had perhaps a hundredth the number of airplanes (and I suspect I’m being very generous at that) and have now had a midair.  

I’m certain that if you were involved in a mid air it would matter to you who hit who...

[DanM20C]

6 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Two days ago marked 50 years from my PPL,

Congratulations Bob! 

I'm one week from my 25th anniversary of my PPL.  I sure hope I'm flying as well as you in 25 years.

Cheers,

Dan

[Yooper Rocketman]

7 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Two days ago marked 50 years from my PPL,

Congratulations Bob!!  Quite a milestone.

I had 25 years (from first lesson) quietly sneak by me last month and didn't even realize it until your post today. 

Guess I can celebrate 25 years on the PPL next month.

Hope your trip with your grandson goes (or went, not sure if you're home yet) well.

Tom

[Dave Piehler]

We've posted a brief update on the status of the investigation on the Mooney Caravan web site.  Sorry if it isn't as detailed as you might like, but the investigation is proceeding with all deliberate speed and more details will be communicated when a clear and cogent presentation can be provided, along with lessons learned.  

Dave Piehler

[thinwing]

8 hours ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

Congratulations Bob!!  Quite a milestone.

I had 25 years (from first lesson) quietly sneak by me last month and didn't even realize it until your post today. 

Guess I can celebrate 25 years on the PPL next month.

Hope your trip with your grandson goes (or went, not sure if you're home yet) well.

Tom

I just realized this Aug will be 39 years for me ...time flys And luckily so do I

[ZuluZulu]

If there's a way to blockquote text, I can't figure it out, so here's the statement in italics:

As many of you know, we had an incident during Mooney Caravan 2019.  During the en route portion of the flight, a slowdown occurred during a rejoin to fingertip maneuver.  During this same time period, an en route course change also occurred in the direction of the rejoining wingmen. As such, an overrun occurred and both pilots took corrective action. After landing it was noted that contact had occurred.  No other elements of the formation were placed in danger by the incident.

Currently, a team of Caravan individuals is analyzing the event in order to come up with procedural recommendations. This team is in the process of gathering and reviewing all available information. While our internal investigation is not yet complete (and will not be until the NTSB makes their analysis and recommendations public), there are several takeaways that we are working on for future Caravan operations.

These recommendations will likely include more thorough training, more focus on emergency procedures and emergency calls, as well as more detailed written emergency  procedures. Please be patient with us as we try to decipher the information, and come up with meaningful conclusions. It is important that the NTSB report comes out prior so that we can incorporate all data into a thorough Caravan safety report.

[MooneyMitch]

“Two days ago marked 50 years from my PPL”

Congratulations Bob!  That’s quite an accomplishment.  Wishing you many more years with your Mooney..... super lucky we are!

46 years for me ! 

[Tom]

16 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Guys, what we do, fly, has inherent risk. Two days ago marked 50 years from my PPL...

A big congratulations.  I sincerely hope that you've put in for your Wright Brothers award. 

Below cut/paste from https://www.faasafety.gov/content/masterpilot/
__________________________________________________________________________________________

The Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award is the most prestigious award the FAA issues to pilots certified under Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 61. This award is named after the Wright Brothers, the first US pilots, to recognize individuals who have exhibited professionalism, skill, and aviation expertise for at least 50 years while piloting aircraft as "Master Pilots".

A distinctive certificate and lapel pin is issued after application review and eligibility requirements have been met. Upon request, a stickpin similar in design to the lapel pin is also provided to the award recipient's spouse in recognition of his or her support to the recipient's aviation career. Once the award has been issued, the recipient's name, city and state will be added to a published "Roll of Honor" located at https://www.faasafety.gov/content/MasterPilot/RecipientList.aspx.

Eligibility

To be eligible for the Wright Brothers MPA, nominees must meet the following criteria:

• Hold a U.S. Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) or Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) pilot certificate.
• Have 50 or more years of civil and military flying experience.
  • Up to 20 years of the required 50 years may be U.S. military experience.
  • The effective start date for the 50 years is the date of the nominee's first solo flight or military equivalent.
  • The 50 years may be computed consecutively or non-consecutively.
• Be a U.S. citizen.
  
  Note: Revocation of any airman certificate will disqualify a nominee for this award.

To Apply

Follow application procedures located in the current Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award Information Guide. (PDF)

Contact your local FSDO for more information.

[Bob_Belville]

Congratulations Bob!!  Quite a milestone.
I had 25 years (from first lesson) quietly sneak by me last month and didn't even realize it until your post today. 
Guess I can celebrate 25 years on the PPL next month.
Hope your trip with your grandson goes (or went, not sure if you're home yet) well.
Tom

Hi Tom, great to see you at KOSH, thanks for engaging Ben!

The anniversary date that counts for something like the Wright Brothers Master Pilot award is your first solo date so look that up and celebrate 25 years as a pilot.

We’re back in NC and the Mooney is in her hangar tonight but tomorrow we’ll fly to MA to check complete Ben’s adventure. Nancy and I will be back home by Friday.

Over 50 hours on the oil by then. But what a great, economical airplane... the leg today was 794 nm from Oklahoma City to KMRN, 5.7 hours, avg. 141 ktas on 8.1 gph.


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[Bob_Belville]

A big congratulations.  I sincerely hope that you've put in for your Wright Brothers award. 
Below cut/paste from https://www.faasafety.gov/content/masterpilot/
__________________________________________________________________________________________
The Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award is the most prestigious award the FAA issues to pilots certified under Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR) part 61. This award is named after the Wright Brothers, the first US pilots, to recognize individuals who have exhibited professionalism, skill, and aviation expertise for at least 50 years while piloting aircraft as "Master Pilots".
A distinctive certificate and lapel pin is issued after application review and eligibility requirements have been met. Upon request, a stickpin similar in design to the lapel pin is also provided to the award recipient's spouse in recognition of his or her support to the recipient's aviation career. Once the award has been issued, the recipient's name, city and state will be added to a published "Roll of Honor" located at https://www.faasafety.gov/content/MasterPilot/RecipientList.aspx.
Eligibility To be eligible for the Wright Brothers MPA, nominees must meet the following criteria:

• Hold a U.S. Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) or Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) pilot certificate.
• Have 50 or more years of civil and military flying experience.
  • Up to 20 years of the required 50 years may be U.S. military experience.
  • The effective start date for the 50 years is the date of the nominee's first solo flight or military equivalent.
  • The 50 years may be computed consecutively or non-consecutively.
• Be a U.S. citizen.
  
  Note: Revocation of any airman certificate will disqualify a nominee for this award.

To Apply Follow application procedures located in the current Wright Brothers Master Pilot Award Information Guide. (PDF)

Contact your local FSDO for more information.

Several folks have been urging me to apply and I have already done so. Four great friends, long time Mooney promoters were kind enough to write letters of recommendation.


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[Danb]

Awesome Bob, I was a late starter to this stuff on my 34TH year a hopefully still counting I need to get to 87 years young to hit your 50 congrats

[Hank]

3 minutes ago, Danb said:

Awesome Bob, I was a late starter to this stuff on my 34TH year a hopefully still counting I need to get to 87 years young to hit your 50 congrats

You young whippersnapper! I soloed at 43, PPL at 44, IA at 47. While I hope to become a UFI, flying at 93 is rather doubtful . . . .

[bonal]

7 minutes ago, Danb said:

Awesome Bob, I was a late starter to this stuff on my 34TH year a hopefully still counting I need to get to 87 years young to hit your 50 congrats

Dan has been flying for 34 years he needs to fly until his 87th birthday to have flown for 50 years. How old was Dan when he started flying.

I used to love those story math problems back in the day

[Danb]

I won't tell, to tough a question for this CPA