2 Mooneys Touch Mid-Air Inbound to OSH?

[DonMuncy]

33 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

I've also always maintained that it is Cirrus owners that I tend to dislike, not their aircraft.

Perhaps Cirrus owners are like cops and lawyers. They are disliked as a generic class, but the ones we meet and know are alright.

[Yetti]

3 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

Perhaps Cirrus owners are like cops and lawyers. They are disliked as a generic class, but the ones we meet and know are alright.

I have several specific Cirrus things I don't like about Cirrus.   No yoke to provide a cue to what is straight and level.   A wacky wing that I believe provides some weird break at slow speeds coupled with no yoke.   unresolved cowling heat issue that causes premature engine failure.  

I am sure the pilots are fine group of folks.

[gsengle]

I have several specific Cirrus things I don't like about Cirrus.   No yoke to provide a cue to what is straight and level.   A wacky wing that I believe provides some weird break at slow speeds coupled with no yoke.   unresolved cowling heat issue that causes premature engine failure.  
I am sure the pilots are fine group of folks.

I have an issue with the design of the trim system which deadens slower speed feel. Springs? Give me aerodynamic trim tabs... and if you want a plane to go fast, don’t be lame, retract the wheels...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gsxrpilot]

1 minute ago, gsengle said:

and if you want a plane to go fast, don’t be lame, retract the wheels...

This!

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, DonMuncy said:

Perhaps Cirrus owners are like cops and lawyers. They are disliked as a generic class, but the ones we meet and know are alright.

 Probably some truth to that statement. I have to say I’ve met some doozies when it comes to Cirrus owners but I could say the same thing about experimental owners and ultralight owners. I also have to say that I am truly grateful to Cirrus. That company has single-handedly done more for general aviation in the last 20 years than any other company I can think of. GA represents an infinitesimally small portion of the population. Cirrus has increased our ranks.  Instead of fighting for a piece of the pie, they made the pie bigger.  That’s to be admired.  The downside is that such a grand accomplishment generates mystique. I tend to notice people in general. I tend to pay extra attention to Cirrus owners because of the mystique.  I have met some great ones but I’ve also met some schmucks. The thing about schmucks is that they stick out more when they’re flying a half million dollar aircraft when compared to the guy in a clapped out homebuilt.  Most wouldn’t give a second look to a dented up hoopty that looks like it swiped a telephone pole on its way home the previous evening. See a late-model 911 in the same condition and you notice. 

 

Edited July 31, 2019 by Shadrach

[Yetti]

1 minute ago, Shadrach said:

  Most wouldn’t give a second look to a dented up hoopty that looks like it swiped a telephone pole on its way home the previous evening.

I don't care who you are but that is funny

[ragedracer1977]

2 hours ago, Yetti said:

Actually we can learn lots through triangulation.    I have already learned one scenario is not valid.   I could keep going and offer up another theory and see if that one gets rejected also.   This is why people get their computers and email hacked.

Even the official statement will be vague and not provide lots of details.

This thread is why it is not a real safety culture.  A real safety culture would have had a safety stand down.   Everyone would have been briefed on what was known at the time, how to proceed safely based on information available.  not "rumors were circulating the whole week"  This should have happened within a day and a week later there would have been an update.   Safety cannot exist when people are told to keep their mouths closed to protect people's reputation.   You cannot have safety without everyone participating.   Also Safety is not our license to operate our planes.   I have worked in an industry where small towns can disappear off a map.   That is where safety is your license to operate.   /soap box off/

I actually agree with you.  It wasn't my call, I'm a newbie, and I'm not in charge of anything.  I think it should have been discussed openly so we could all learn from it.  

[Shadrach]

10 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

I actually agree with you.  It wasn't my call, I'm a newbie, and I'm not in charge of anything.  I think it should have been discussed openly so we could all learn from it.  

It will be discussed openly after the investigation “gag order” is removed.

[EricJ]

2 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

It will be discussed openly after the investigation “gag order” is removed.

I think the only perceived issue is who the gag order applies to.   It shouldn't apply to anyone not involved in the gagged investigation.

[Shadrach]

Just now, EricJ said:

I think the only perceived issue is who the gag order applies to.   It shouldn't apply to anyone not involved in the gagged investigation.

Perhaps but given it involved a member here, it’s likely best for all to wait for the investigation to conclude.  

Tragically, a lot of the speculation on this forum takes place without the flying pilot’s point of view. Fortunately In this case. everyone is alive and we have a good shot at getting a clear picture of the incident.

[RogueOne]

7 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Well said @Tom   
people were anti-seatbelt and anti- airbag before people accepted that technology saves lives. 
I rented a Subaru the other day. In addition to radar interval cruise control, it notifies you and gives push back when departing your lane, alerts you of approaching cars when backing up, and gently reminds you when the car ahead has began moving again.  
My wife said God all of these constant alerts are so annoying. I said how about you don’t back up into oncoming traffic, stray outside your traffic lane, and stop posting on Mooneyspace at stoplights, oblivious to the fact the car ahead is now gone. 

It’s like the car is teaching you to be a better person. Stay in your lane, drive the speed limit, don’t follow too closely, don’t back up Over stroller mommies, Pay your taxes, Don’t cheat on your wife. Eat more plants. Use less plastic. Be a better person. Subaru. 

I apparently don’t “drive like your wife” so...like the chute, that requires a mandatory and expensive “repack” I am going to pass on the nannies because:

A. I maintain proper distance

B. I look before/while backing

C. I don’t multi-task and I maintain lane position

D. I don’t want to pay for those things when they break or some idiot on his phone texting rearends me.

I guess I am that guy that is happy to find a bean field and glide should proper maintenance fail me. 

I guess I am that guy that Tom is referring to in his post. EXCEPT that I am NOT a chute/Nanny hater.  I simply choose to not pay the price of admission.  In fact I am super happy that others that would prefer to have the car drive for them and or be doing something else while driving DO buy Subaru and all the other vehicles that have pro-active and passive safety features.

I DO like the blind spot warning feature.  THAT feature rocks!

[DonMuncy]

Although I may be proven wrong, it appears to be fairly easy to assume that the wing plane didn't slow as quickly as the lead. When flying close to other aircraft, it would not take much of an error to have that happen. If you have not attempted formation flying, you probably don't realize how difficult it is to maintain the requisite spacing. In my opinion, the reason for the overall safety of formation flying is the dedication and training those guys do. Their briefing before and after flights is absolutely amazing. It is surprising that there are not more incidents/accidents than there are. Again, because the pilots who do this are so diligent in training. But we are human, and we do make errors.

[Shadrach]

10 minutes ago, DonMuncy said:

Although I may be proven wrong, it appears to be fairly easy to assume that the wing plane didn't slow as quickly as the lead. When flying close to other aircraft, it would not take much of an error to have that happen. If you have not attempted formation flying, you probably don't realize how difficult it is to maintain the requisite spacing. In my opinion, the reason for the overall safety of formation flying is the dedication and training those guys do. Their briefing before and after flights is absolutely amazing. It is surprising that there are not more incidents/accidents than there are. Again, because the pilots who do this are so diligent in training. But we are human, and we do make errors.

I’m wondering if speed brakes were a factor. Does caravan have a policy?

[jetdriven]

41 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

It will be discussed openly after the investigation “gag order” is removed.

After the typical 18-24mo NTSB investigation and final conclusion, hopefully in the interim there wont be another accident on the next Mooney Caravan that wouldnt have happened had they got in front of the facts here. We don't need the NTSB to issue a final ruling as to the cause and circumstance. That makes it official, but the facts are known to the people central to the event. The pilots, the managers, and directors.

They can choose to get in front of this, demonstrate a strong response to it and the subsequent response, change in operations from it, or they can go the other way, 737 MAX style.  Its their choice, but a coverup and a subsequent accident will be the end of the Mooney Caravan as a whole.  Maybe all the mass arrivals.

I will say it again and then I will STFU.  Three people almost died here. Regardless of how you esteem the pilots and skills, that was secondary to luck here. Lets learn from this, and instead of saying, "whew, that's a big sky, glad it worked out", lets apply some positive change here. Definitive, positive, forceful action.

 

[jetdriven]

15 minutes ago, RogueOne said:

I apparently don’t “drive like your wife” so...like the chute, that requires a mandatory and expensive “repack” I am going to pass on the nannies because:

A. I maintain proper distance

B. I look before/while backing

C. I don’t multi-task and I maintain lane position

D. I don’t want to pay for those things when they break or some idiot on his phone texting rearends me.

I guess I am that guy that is happy to find a bean field and glide should proper maintenance fail me. 

I guess I am that guy that Tom is referring to in his post. EXCEPT that I am NOT a chute/Nanny hater.  I simply choose to not pay the price of admission.  In fact I am super happy that others that would prefer to have the car drive for them and or be doing something else while driving DO buy Subaru and all the other vehicles that have pro-active and passive safety features.

I DO like the blind spot warning feature.  THAT feature rocks!

OK, because you are such a good pilot, you dont need any secondary safety device. I get it.   We flew half the way from DC to OSH in the dark. NP, I put the engine on the plane and it was running good. But should it have quit running for any reason, I'm committed to hitting something forward in the dark at 60 MPH down below.  Take what comes. I cant tell what is a bean field after dark. Hopefully that wouldnt happen and it didnt. I chose not to buy a Cirrus, like you, for various reasons, and for that, comes the consequences.  I dont actively hate the nannies, but they arent in my price range yet. Were I to be killed in a plane crash, you guys all gather around and remind each other how cheap and stupid I was.

 

[RogueOne]

Just now, jetdriven said:

OK, because you are such a good pilot, you dont need any secondary safety device. I get it.   We flew half the way from DC to OSH in the dark. NP, I put the engine on the plane and it was running good. But should it have quit running for any reason, I'm committed to hitting something forward in the dark at 60 MPH down below.  Take what comes. I cant tell what is a bean field after dark. Hopefully that wouldnt happen and it didnt. I chose not to buy a Cirrus, like you, for various reasons, and for that, comes the consequences.  I dont actively hate the nannies, but they arent in my price range yet. Were I to be killed in a plane crash, you guys all gather around and remind each other how cheap and stupid I was.

 

Byron, I do not fly at night, but I TOTALLY support you and others purchasing and taking advantage of the additional safety benefit that a chute provides in aviation.  Your first sentence is over the top my man, but no worries...

[RogueOne]

I DO remember when you told me I wasn’t a good pilot, because good pilots remember to lower their gear without an auditory alert...

Good memories...

Just keeping it real.

[Yetti]

22 minutes ago, RogueOne said:

  I simply choose to not pay the price of admission.  In fact I am super happy that others that would prefer to have the car drive for them and or be doing something else while driving DO buy Subaru and all the other vehicles that have pro-active and passive safety features.

I DO like the blind spot warning feature.  THAT feature rocks!

The adaptive speed control from Subaru rocks.  It makes for lazy drivers.  The collision warning has a problem with Johnson grass.   The car is unstickable in other places where the Expedition needed 4WD engaged.  Dad was impressed that it would do 18MPG pulling a boat.   Count em 3 screens and 19 cup holders.   So the car does need to do some of the driving.

The cabin was hugely bigger than any ford truck up to and including the F450

[RogueOne]

5 minutes ago, Yetti said:

The adaptive speed control from Subaru rocks.  It makes for lazy drivers.  The collision warning has a problem with Johnson grass.   The car is unstickable in other places where the Expedition needed 4WD engaged.  Dad was impressed that it would do 18MPG pulling a boat.   Count em 3 screens and 19 cup holders.   So the car does need to do some of the driving.

The cabin was hugely bigger than any ford truck up to and including the F450

I use cruise nearly always.  Even at 25mph through small towns that might have speed traps.  It is a “hobby” to judge when to cancel cruise so as to NOT have to brake for a driver ahead.  Keeps me in the game and helps with MPG’s...

I am sure the adaptive is fine.  I wish some would adapt as they pass semi’s with cruise on and accelerate to get past instead of “hanging out” for a longer period.  Just keep it/cruise on...accelerate for pass and lift.  Let cruise kick in when down to your set speed.

Left lane bandits are a hazard.  I don’t like flying formation.  Especially with a semi.

Edited July 31, 2019 by RogueOne

[jetdriven]

9 minutes ago, RogueOne said:

I use cruise nearly always.  Even at 25mph through small towns that might have speed traps.  It is a “hobby” to judge when to cancel cruise so as to NOT have to brake for a driver ahead.  Keeps me in the game and helps with MPG’s...

I am sure the adaptive is fine.  I wish some would adapt as they pass semi’s with cruise on and accelerate to get past instead of “hanging out” for a longer period.  Just keep it/cruise on...accelerate for pass and lift.  Let cruise kick in when down to your set speed.

Left lane bandits are a hazard.  I don’t like flying formation.  Especially with a semi.

Radar cruise is the best yet. Set it to 75, and it slows for curves or small towns when they do, and comes to a stop at a red light behind a car. As the car pulls away, the Subaru auto-resumes to the best speed it can do. Should that be a dead-end road with a flashing red light, or a 4-way stop, the Subaru will happily set off in front of another car or off the end of the road. The BMW i3 that I take care of, requires a tap on the gas pedal to resume from 0 MPH.  Very smart. I havent lusted after a machine since high school but this one is flirting a lot. She thinks I'm cute too. Maybe someday.

Anyway, they're not all good, but, curiously, a Parachute on a plane reminds me of a shotgun or an AR15 propped up in the corner of the farmhouse bedroom. Your last, best chance to survive, just pull. You dont have too, but its there. I think the pilot in Arizona might have wished for one. Vertical at 19 MPH vs horizontal at 60+.  Technology marches on, it saves lives.

Edited July 31, 2019 by jetdriven

[gsxrpilot]

22 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

After the typical 18-24mo NTSB investigation and final conclusion, hopefully in the interim there wont be another accident on the next Mooney Caravan that wouldnt have happened had they got in front of the facts here. We don't need the NTSB to issue a final ruling as to the cause and circumstance. That makes it official, but the facts are known to the people central to the event. The pilots, the managers, and directors.

They can choose to get in front of this, demonstrate a strong response to it and the subsequent response, change in operations from it, or they can go the other way, 737 MAX style.  Its their choice, but a coverup and a subsequent accident will be the end of the Mooney Caravan as a whole.  Maybe all the mass arrivals.

I will say it again and then I will STFU.  Three people almost died here. Regardless of how you esteem the pilots and skills, that was secondary to luck here. Lets learn from this, and instead of saying, "whew, that's a big sky, glad it worked out", lets apply some positive change here. Definitive, positive, forceful action.

 

Your point is well made. And while I agree with the Caravan leadership, that MooneySpace and other online forums are not the place to hash out what happened, there has already been and will continue to be a strong response to this incident. This incident is properly discussed and will be better understood within the context of the proper procedures of formation flying. And within that context...

• Every pilot who flies with the Caravan is always required to qualify or re-qualify within the calendar year of the Caravan. In other words, even if all 62 pilots return next year, they each are required to re-qualify to fly with the Caravan during the spring of 2020. That includes those of us who fly with the Caravan every year and have flown for many years.
• This incident will surely be discussed and addressed at length at each clinic. Therefore every pilot flying with next years Caravan will benefit from the lessons learned.
• Caravan Clinics consist of a day of ground school followed by two days of flying. This will provide ample time to put proper emphasis on the procedures that will help to ensure an incident like this never happens again.
• Caravan Clinics start in February and continue through May. And are scheduled around the country. Anyone is welcome to attend and participate. 

[jetdriven]

Well said, @gsxrpilot

[Yetti]

22 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Radar cruise is the best yet. Set it to 75, and it slows for curves or small towns when they do, and comes to a stop at a red light behind a car. As the car pulls away, the Subaru auto-resumes to the best speed it can do. Should that be a dead-end road with a flashing red light, or a 4-way stop, the Subaru will happily set off in front of another car or off the end of the road.

Nope.  If it goes to 0 then you have to tap to start.   Also has brake hold which sets at a light.  Then warns you that the car in front has moved if you wait too long to go.   It can weird gap merging traffic and it will fight you if you go into NASCAR mode.

I have set the anti collision warning off on a semi regular basis Seems I like to drive closer than it is comfortable with.

[Steve W]

1 hour ago, RogueOne said:

I use cruise nearly always.  Even at 25mph through small towns that might have speed traps.  It is a “hobby” to judge when to cancel cruise so as to NOT have to brake for a driver ahead.  Keeps me in the game and helps with MPG’s...

I am sure the adaptive is fine.  I wish some would adapt as they pass semi’s with cruise on and accelerate to get past instead of “hanging out” for a longer period.  Just keep it/cruise on...accelerate for pass and lift.  Let cruise kick in when down to your set speed.

Left lane bandits are a hazard.  I don’t like flying formation.  Especially with a semi.

I want adaptive cruise control because there are so many idiots, er, touists out here who just can't maintain a speed, while I rarely have to brake I'm going to wear out the damn cruise control buttons. And then invevitably they speed up when they hit the passing lane and I have to pass them with extreme prejudice before they take the next tiny curve 20 under the limit.

And coming from a family of truckers, yea, you don't hang out next to trucks. Between the chances of a tire blowing and screwing things up if they need to manuver to avoid an accident it's just a stupid place to be.

[Austintatious]

On 7/29/2019 at 12:33 PM, DonMuncy said:

I find it nothing short of a miracle that two planes can touch in flight, both land and both (apparently) fly home. As I understand it, there is some sort of maintenance available at Osh, but even at that, it would appear to be very minor damage. 

Did you see the video of two jets colliding while pylon racing?  Look it up on youtube!