Pre-buy Inspection Problem List

[Mooney91]

So I am looking at a 1964 Mooney M20C. The plane has been flown about 10 hours in the past 7 years. 3600hours TT, Engine 260 SMOH (overhauled 1990), and prop 260 since new.  Overall it seems like a good plane. Does anybody have experience with these problems? Should I have these items deducted from the price or fixed before I buy the plane? I think I am in the all clear after the AD is complied with.  I am assuming it won't cost a great amount in order to have these items looked at and fixed.  Thanks in advance for your help. 

AD Issues:

• Aluminum oil prop governor line needs to be replaced with steel line and steel fittings (AD: 90-04-06R1, 12-05-09)

Other issues:

• Pitot heat is inop
• Vacuum gauge not showing pressure but vacuum instruments seem to work properly, could be a possible leak...
• Gear up lights are on while on the ground, electrical issues.

Edited May 30, 2018 by Mooney91
Added pics

[orionflt]

3 minutes ago, Mooney91 said:

So I am looking at a 1964 Mooney M20C. The plane has been flown about 10 hours in the past 7 years. 3600hours TT, Engine 260 SMOH (overhauled 1990), and prop 260 since new.  Overall it seems like a good plane. Does anybody have experience with these problems? Should I have these items deducted from the price or fixed before I buy the plane? I think I am in the all clear after the AD is complied with.  I am assuming it won't cost a great amount in order to have these items looked at and fixed.  Thanks in advance for your help. 

AD Issues:

• Aluminum oil prop governor line needs to be replaced with steel line and steel fittings (AD: 90-04-06R1, 12-05-09)

Other issues:

• Pitot heat is inop
• Vacuum gauge not showing pressure but vacuum instruments seem to work properly, could be a possible leak...
• Gear up lights are on while on the ground, electrical issues.

I think you need a full prebuy from someone who knows what they are looking at. and yes any airworthy repairs should be a factor in the final price.

Brian

[steingar]

Yeah, make sure the thing gets repaired before you fly it away.  You can negotiate it with the seller, but I'd make them pay.  Those all sound like airworthiness issues.  The aircraft was advertised as airworthy, wasn't it?

As far as the low hours on the engine, have someone take a really close look at it, i.e. stick a boroscope up its ass and check for corrosion.  Mine was the same way, flown about an hour a month for years.  But it was OK, nothing wrong with the engine and two years later haven't had a hiccup except one I caused. Me, I'd have the mechanic who's going to do the annuals do the pre buy evaluation, but that isn't always possible (didn't do it for my Mooney, for example).

Don't know what it is about Mooneys, but the one I bought was a nearly a hangar queen.  I saw a bunch more than were hangar queens.

[N201MKTurbo]

You have to wonder how an AD slips through that many annuals. If I recall the 09 AD superseded an AD from the early 90s.

[MB65E]

You can still have the hose Vs the metal line!

-Matt

[Marauder]

So I am looking at a 1964 Mooney M20C. The plane has been flown about 10 hours in the past 7 years. 3600hours TT, Engine 260 SMOH (overhauled 1990), and prop 260 since new.  Overall it seems like a good plane. Does anybody have experience with these problems? Should I have these items deducted from the price or fixed before I buy the plane? I think I am in the all clear after the AD is complied with.  I am assuming it won't cost a great amount in order to have these items looked at and fixed.  Thanks in advance for your help. 
AD Issues:

• Aluminum oil prop governor line needs to be replaced with steel line and steel fittings (AD: 90-04-06R1, 12-05-09)

Other issues:

• Pitot heat is inop
• Vacuum gauge not showing pressure but vacuum instruments seem to work properly, could be a possible leak...
• Gear up lights are on while on the ground, electrical issues.

It really looks like whomever is doing the pre-buy is going down the basic list of stuff that looks wrong. You really need someone who is familiar with these planes to make sure the areas of concern (not always covered by the ADs) are evaluated. Such as SB-208 (roll cage corrosion), fuel tank leaks, corrosion of the spar, etc.


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[75_M20F]

10 hours in 7 years? Beware of cam corrosion, borescope can't see that part of the engine. Viewing of the cam requires cylinder removal.

 

[Guest]

There are a few PPI check lists on this site and more than enough knowledgeable people to help guide you.

Clarence

[Yetti]

3 of four are airworthy issues because there could be underlying issues.

The tubular SB and Wing spar Corrosion are mandatory.

The cam may be OK as there seems to be a period between 90s and early 2000s where the cams were bad.

Expect an old OH engine to leak oil.

How are all the oil lines? $1000 for a set of those

There is another thread going on that we are saying the same thing.

 

[carusoam]

M91,

How Long have you been reading MS,  Since Feb.?

Why Chase an inactive plane when there are active ones for sale?

Is this plane sitting indoors or out?

How is the plane priced.. high, or has it been discounted for this stuff already?

How is the market lately, are good planes languishing?

Got any pics, or a site...?

Has this plane been annualed each year without flying in between?

 

to answer your questions in a helpful manner it requires a lot of info...

Most of the answers you are going to get result in the ‘be sure to get a good PPI by a knowlegable mechanic’ type of response...

Setting a price is going to be highly dependent on passing a solid PPI.  What other choice do you have?

While we are at it... how are the...

• paint
• panel
• interior
• tanks
• tubes
• donuts
• is the cam rusty?
• are the cylinder walls pitted?
• any Corrosion anywhere?

How does it compare to similar planes in the market?

How well does this plane meet your mission requirements?

• IFR or VFR?
• 100nm per flight or 400nm per flight?
• 20hrs per year or 200hrs per year?
• Fancy WAAS GPS or a single VOR?

 

Were you looking for the green light that says congrats on finding a low time engine, prop, and airframe... everything should go equally well... jump in the pool!  

you might have to raise your offer to defend off other buyers...  (one of the challenges of asking questions in a public environment)

Briefly: If you are only buying the low hours advertised, make sure you are getting what you are paying for.  To do that requires somebody to put their eyes on it...

As for requesting a discounted price... you would have to know why it should be discounted... not because somebody had a cam go bad once... How is the cam in the plane you are buying?

Buying a plane can be a real challenge.  Buying one that has been sitting can be an bigger challenge. Don’t let somebody else’s challenge become yours...

There are people that are really good at working through mechanical challenges.

There are people that are really good at buying planes.

Some buyers like to take risks on buying a plane...   they are mechanics... or a person that has mechanical skill that is going to work closely with a mechanic...

One way to approach the financial risk is to know how much an engine OH is going to cost... same with the prop...

There is no sense in negotiating a price for something you don’t want to buy.  Make sure you have found the plane that Best meets your needs, then negotiate the price...

 

Tell us about yourself... your skills...your experience...

 

I need to put more time on my plane, if I intend to ever sell it.... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Mooney91]

I have added some pictures to give you guys a better idea of the plane. It has a scimitar prop that was installed in 2008 (260hrs), stec50 AP,  cam lock cowl, VFR gps 155 not updated, 201 windshield, electric flap conversion, one belly piece mod. Attitude and altitude instruments overhauled last year. Fuel tanks were repaired last month at a Mooney service center in Texas. It has always been in a hanger by the same owner since 1981. The plane has had an annual each year by the field mechanic. Damage history was a prop strike in the 90s, which was when the overhaul on the engine was completed. The owner’s asking price is in the high 30s. Plane flew well, and comps were in mid 70s on all 4 cylinders.  Did not get a chance to borescope while I was there but it is something I will have done before I buy the plane.

My goals with this plane is to fly it about 150 hours this year, and continually fly about 75-100 hours per year with my wife. I am going  to complete my instrument and commercial license this year. I have been a Mooney fan for years, and have always wanted to own a plane. I have about 140hours of flying, currently in a flight club. With the hours I plan on getting this year and in the future, it makes sense for me to own. I really wanted to own a plane that would last me several years before wanting to upgrade to something else. With the m20s, you can’t beat the speed and the fuel economy with other planes, which is one reason why I like them so much. 

 

Edited May 30, 2018 by Mooney91

[carusoam]

In Y2K, I bought an M20C... price was mid 30amu...

It had no GPS, it’s loran had timed out, no AP, no engine monitor, no carb temp indicator... prop had the usual AD, and had a piece ground out of one of its blades... total hrs was over 5k....

The factory was closed, then it reopened... then the Great Recession befell us...

I flew it near 1k hours.  My kids knew their grandparents very well because of it...

It sold a decade after I bought it, fully worn out...just under 20amu... broken engine mount, fuel tanks leaked, Paint was falling off, Interior was original and worn comfortably... 

 

VFR gps database not updated?  Sounds like a real first world kind of challenge.

 

If you look at my experience... I lost 10amu over a ten year experience...  my kids were an essential part of their grandparents lives for 1amu (aircraft capital investment/loss) per year...

Spend more and get more than I did... it’s worth it.  Use a PPI to protect your wallet the best you can.

Something to know when buying used machines...

When the seller lists all of the plane details and discloses all of the issues and gives a price... this is the start of the negotiation... When you have a PPI done and find additional things that have not been disclosed... this is where the rational discounting begins.

A rational discount is...  something isn’t working properly. The estimated cost to fix it is 1amu.  The owner can get it fixed to complete the sale... or the buyer can take 1amu off the price and fix it later...

An irrational request comes in the form of “it might have a rusty cam” it may cost 20amu to OH the engine... I want a 20amu discount...

remember the owner doesn’t have to sell it to you.  He apparently has been sitting on this project for a really long time... does he really want to sell it now?

Buying and selling machines doesn’t need to be rational.  You can make an offer and hope it gets accepted... when it does, you will wonder what else is wrong...

I prefer rational sales. Agreeing on a price.  Receiving all that is expected...  having the owner gladly answer all your questions that come up after the sale... ‘what does this switch do?’  ‘Where is the WnB chart that came with the plane?’ That kind of thing...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[Mooney91]

Thanks for everyone’s replies. I just want to be sure I’m doing the right thing since this will be my first time purchasing a plane. I think I’ll have a more in depth inspection completed at a Mooney service center. Thought it wouldn’t hurt to ask some of the most knowledgeable people who have first hand experience with Mooney’s. I’m just looking for a little bit of guidance / advice.  So thank you all, any other advice is greatly appreciated. 

[mooniacX]

I had to walk on this plane. unfortunately, the engine is past TBO (over 12 years and sat a lot in a high humid area) it was too much of a risk. it cant pass an IFR..has a pito leak + a few other issues with alt reporting and compass heading is 40 deg off. There are a few issues with radio and audio panel still going on. I asked the owner to take care of some of the issues that had come up and he refused. He is a very nice guy...pay close attention to logs..he did a lot of work on it himself. He has a friend who would sign it off. Way too many risky issues so I passed. It will need sb208 done as well which is pretty expensive.Be sure to pull the side panels to inspect for corrosion.   Good Luck!

[carusoam]

Really important note...

The gear up lights may be an indication that somebody has released the gear while it is on the ground...or didn’t get it locked in place properly... This is important for the owner to know... not a buyer to find out about accidently...

There is a small switch up where the handle locks into the receiver at the bottom of the instrument panel...

Make sure the gear handle is locked in place properly before moving the plane...

It would be really bad to be poking around a plane and have it fall to the ground... especially if it is one you want...

The test you want to perform is called the thumbnail test...  easy to search for, if not familiar...

You may want to hire a mechanic to join you for the first run through of all the logs and issues that have come up...

Less important note... the engine doesn’t know it has been 12 years since it got OH’d... that is more of a rule for non GA / private flight... or outside of the US...

Buying used machinery is a job.  Doing it well, pays pretty well...

It is better for a first time buyer to buy a used machine that has been active.  This is particularly true if you have never owned a plane before...  if you don’t have the experience of flying a lot of different used machines, it will be more difficult to recognize something not working as expected...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[Mooney91]

Carusoam & Mooniacx, thanks for the info!

Edited May 30, 2018 by Mooney91

[MB65E]

It looks really clean. If it checks out it might be worth it as a quick project. I wouldn’t be scared of it. Sounds like something around mid 30’s close. My E was a project at 41k and I still don’t have an AP. I’d spend the money on a real Ppi, and go from there. There is a lot of value left in the airplane if it’s checked out. I would turn the Ppi into an annual and have SB208 complied with during annual. If it passes Ppi and SB208 I’d buy it. The engine is a crap shoot but you won’t truly know that for 100-200hrs no matter who looks At the engine. 

-Matt

 

 

[Jeev]

Honestly I usually have a longer squawk List at annual on my J that I fly at least 120hrs a year and fix things as they break.  I would expect much more on an aircraft that has sat that much. Definitely bring it to a more thourough shop with mooney experience.  It will make you new ownership much more pleasurable if you know what you are getting in to instead of getting a big surprise a few months from purchase.  Good luck 

[MikeOH]

As a new first time owner myself, here are some random comments:

1) If this is only the first or second plane you've looked at, I would move on.  I don't think you are missing the 'deal of the century' by doing so.  The engine COULD be fine, but with only 260 hours since 1990 I'd be really nervous.  While the plane appears real clean, the panel is pretty dated ($$ to upgrade), unless you don't care.  Price seems to reflect the low engine time; i.e., the seller is NOT going to treat it as a calendar run-out, and I don't necessarily blame him.  BUT, the risk will be on you! You are PAYING for a low-time engine that MAY not make it very long.

2) How long have you been looking?  Yeah, you hear of people buying after less than a month, but are they first time buyers? And, you rarely know how the story ended for them.  It takes a while to "get educated" on buying in general, and a particular model, in particular.  You don't want to take as long as I did (multiple years!), but I think you need to shop for 3 to 6 months as a first time buyer to get the "lay of the land."  Or, hire a buyer's broker; I almost did that, but for the sub $50K market it looked to be around $5K, and a 10% premium was more than I was comfortable with.

3) I ended up being less concerned with the time on the engine, than how often the plane was flown.  I ended up buying a high-time engine that had been flown 100 hours per year for the last decade.  Time will tell, but the price I paid reflected a run-out engine, but if it needs an overhaul I won't be out much more than if I'd bought with a 'fresh' OH of unknown quality.

4) I shopped for a plane equipped with what I wanted, figuring it would cost a lot more in money, time, and hassle to add what I wanted later.

I guess I'm trying to say, don't fall in love with the first girl you kiss:)

[BigD]

Sorry, I may have missed it, but did you mention who did the overhaul? My 65 c has the original engine but the last overhaul was done by a very reputable shop (Victor Aviation) and washed away many of my concerns (as did the borescope and compression checks).

My first plane I bought years ago (c-310), had low time engines, which is what attracted me to it. However, they were “field overhauls” and I paid a heavy price later. My point is simply that a low time engine is not always better than a mid time engine. I would prefer a mid time overhauled by a reputable shop over a low time done by an unknown. 

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

The best (cheapest) deal you can make on an M20C will be a $50K bird. You can save money on the purchase price by going cheaper... but you will most likely pay the difference and more to get it up to safe, airworthy and comfortable to fly condition.

A careful search of this forum just over the last 3 or 4 years will reveal 10 members who thought they were buying a "great deal", a true "barn find", etc only to invest much more money than the plane will ever be worth, just to get it airworthy. You'll also find 2 members who bought cheap planes and have been very fortunate to have good flying airplanes without any issues. But the odds are not in your favor.

Good C's are getting more and more difficult to find. But there are still good ones available. They won't go cheap, but will be much cheaper in the long run.

A Mooney that is currently and regularly flying would be my first criteria. (All AD's and SB's complied with and corrosion free, is a given) After that I'd be looking for a WAAS GPS and a good Autopilot. 

Just my $0.02

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

The best (cheapest) deal you can make on an M20C will be a $50K bird. You can save money on the purchase price by going cheaper... but you will most likely pay the difference and more to get it up to safe, airworthy and comfortable to fly condition.

A careful search of this forum just over the last 3 or 4 years will reveal 10 members who thought they were buying a "great deal", a true "barn find", etc only to invest much more money than the plane will ever be worth, just to get it airworthy. You'll also find 2 members who bought cheap planes and have been very fortunate to have good flying airplanes without any issues. But the odds are not in your favor.

Good C's are getting more and more difficult to find. But there are still good ones available. They won't go cheap, but will be much cheaper in the long run.

A Mooney that is currently and regularly flying would be my first criteria. (All AD's and SB's complied with and corrosion free, is a given) After that I'd be looking for a WAAS GPS and a good Autopilot. 

Just my $0.02

 

I’d add that the pool of good airplanes of all types is shrinking daily.  Far too many owners don’t keep up on maintenance and upgrades.

Clarence

[steingar]

If the OP wants to learn to fly IFR he'd be better served to get an aircraft that's already IFR capable and that has an IFR GPS.  Don't ask me how I know...