Tailwinds are great...except on landing

[Dickard]

"Winds 120 at 12, enter right down wind 17R."  Trust but verify.  The wind had shifted and I had a 10-15 knot tailwind on touch down.  THAT did not end well.

[Marauder]

"Winds 120 at 12, enter right down wind 17R."  Trust but verify.  The wind had shifted and I had a 10-15 knot tailwind on touch down.  THAT did not end well.

How did it end?


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[N201MKTurbo]

That's why we are taught go-arounds.

[Mcstealth]

4 hours ago, Dickard said:

"Winds 120 at 12, enter right down wind 17R."  Trust but verify.  The wind had shifted and I had a 10-15 knot tailwind on touch down.  THAT did not end well.

Was that an ATIS recording that wasn't updated or was it a tower?

[MooneyMitch]

Was there a wind sock within view for ya?

Myself, even with ATIS or AWOS information, it was just a habit for me to verify using other sources such as the good ole windsock.  
 

I do hope your outcome was no to bad . 

[kortopates]

Oh no! that's why the Loss of Directional Control on Runway(LODC-R) event at COS?! 

All that really matters is that you didn't get injured and are all right. The plane is very fixable.

The incident report says "unknown" damage. So I sincerely hope its minor and you're back on the horse asap!!!

 

[201er]

12 minutes ago, MooneyMitch said:

Was there a wind sock within view for ya?

Myself, even with ATIS or AWOS information, it was just a habit for me to verify using other sources such as the good ole windsock. 

Don't even need a windsock. When the ground is buzzing by so fast it looks like you're going to overshoot, makes no difference what the sock, ATIS, or tower says, go around.

[EricJ]

Oof.   I hope the outcome is easily recoverable.

ATIS can be an hour old.    A good EFB with ADS-B-in usually allows quick access to the most recent ASOS/AWOS/whatever bot data, which is usually close to real-time.

Around here some airports, mostly untowered, don't maintain the wx bots very well and you can't always get wind information.   I can't reliably find or see or interpret wind socks from the pattern, so that's often not useful, either, and sometimes there just aren't good visual cues to what the wind is doing.    My IFD provides crosswind/tailwind info and I've found that that's often pretty easy to check on final once you're low enough to get in surface wind effects.    If I'm ever in doubt or can't get other info, I pull that page up and it's easy to see whether I have a headwind or tailwind.

I think the G5s/GI-275s may display it as well, but I don't currently have that configured.

Sorry to hear it was an issue in this case, though.   

[kortopates]

6 minutes ago, EricJ said:

ATIS can be an hour old.    A good EFB with ADS-B-in usually allows quick access to the most recent ASOS/AWOS/whatever bot data, which is usually close to real-time.

Very true, but the ADS-B metar around here only changes with the ATIS at our towered fields, we don't typically have both a ASOS/AWOS when the ATIS is being broadcast; t least not while the tower is open.

But what gets the current winds every time is just saying "Wind Check" to tower.

 

6 minutes ago, EricJ said:

I think the G5s/GI-275s may display it as well, but I don't currently have that configured.

Just needs an installed ADC (like a GDC 74) connected to the virtually any PFD including G5 or GI-275. (Bigger/full  glass PFD always come with an ADC and OAT). 

Edited September 2, 2022 by kortopates

[MooneyMitch]

4 hours ago, 201er said:

Don't even need a windsock. When the ground is buzzing by so fast it looks like you're going to overshoot, makes no difference what the sock, ATIS, or tower says, go around.

It was a practice, as part of my routine with checking and rechecking many items during landing including on short final, to glance at windsock prior to completing the landing.  Yes, of course, noticing the ground going by faster than what one would be used to is also a clue.  Lots of references available besides an ATIS or other information.

[laytonl]

I live on a 3000’, one-way, grass strip.  My limits for the Mooney at 15 kts max tailwind on landing and 10 kts max tailwind on takeoff.  The Mooney eats up a lot of runway with a tailwind.  For my Citabria it’s 10 kts max for tailwind for takeoff and landing.  Lee

[Hank]

If there's no weather, like many places I visit, just click the Garmin knob once on downwind and compare groundspeed to airspeed:  if groundspeed is lower, then I'm on upwind, not downwind.

Having landed twice with a tailwind (once guided into runway choice by FSS when I couldn't see the very faded tetrahedron, and once when Tower offered me a runway more aligned with my course), it's not something I want to try a third time!

[carusoam]

The good news… Dickard is able to write….

 

From the As Seen on MS files….
 

When pressure systems are moving through the area….

A strong head wind can turn into a strong tail wind as you go out for a flight… it can happen in less than an hour…

 

1) This came up more than a decade ago…. And I believe @Gagarin offered a suggestion…. For what he used to make sure this isn’t happening to you….

1.5) It is normal to find the windsock and see what it is doing… or not doing… early on…  no windsock?

2) The GPS offers several good pieces of information….

3) One piece of info that can be incorporated into the GUMPs check is comparing your Ground Speed to your airspeed….

4) on final… Ground speed should always be less than airspeed when there is a wind…. (Or more… on down wind)

5) Always check the GPS ground speed on final….    If your ground speed is higher… go around!

 

6) +1 for @201er’s suggestion… you will recognize you are going really fast as you near the ground…. But…

7) There is a cognitive trap…

8) The landing is quite normal airspeed wise…. Just ground speed is quite elevated….

9) Braking distance becomes extra long while the plane is still light on its feet…

10) The trap…. By the time you are on the ground speeding, you realize you are running out of runway…. Or you just saw the windsock pointing the wrong way…

 

11) It will be hard to assess… there is going to be a strong urge to start the go around…. Without time to do the calculations…

12) starting a go around late…. After spending time on the ground…. Can easily end in a departure stall….

13) this has happened twice in NJ… once in a rental M20J, and more recently a Bravo…

14) maximum braking, stay on the centerline… better to run off the end of the runway than to stall in the air onto the road below…

15) If the mistake occurs on a short runway…. Maximum braking can be gear up… 

16) cognitive overload is common in the traffic pattern…  it’s a very busy time…

We have seen a lot happen on MS.

PP thoughts to consider… not a CFI…

Best regards,

-a-

[201er]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

10) The trap…. By the time you are on the ground speeding, you realize you are running out of runway…. Or you just saw the windsock pointing the wrong way

Citation please? Wonder which MSer this one could possibly be referring to 

[Boilermonkey]

I was landing KBJC this week.  On a 2 mi final he said the previous aircraft reported windshear, the wind had shifted nearly 180° around, I'd be landing with a 15 knot tailwind, and cleared to land.  I immediately requested to continue downwind and land into the wind.  They said standby, about 1 mi final cleared me for circle of land within one mile of the airport, nothing traffic was on long final for the new runway configuration.

The surprising part in my scenario was the tower was perfectly happy for me to land with a significant tailwind.  I guess that's not their responsibility versus informing the pilot and letting the pilot make the decision. To their credit, they informed me and were quick to grant my request.  Otherwise I was going to go around.

[81X]

Very important topic and two of my personal recent events come to mind.
 

At the Chilly Chili fly in at Triple Tree, it was basically a one way runway as it was so wet (another story) that they wre landing uphill and taking off downhill, but unfortunately downhill was also downwind.  7,000 feet of grass never went by so fast.   It wasn’t unsafe or even remotely a close call, just a reminder how just 5-10 kts of downwind can make an incredible difference.   
 

The other was back at the home drome and people were landing downwind (5kts) one after another. My gut told me to change the pattern despite people consistently landing and taking off downwind but I didn’t.  I also wanted to practice a mild wind downwind landing as you sometimes need to do at the end of an ILS (maybe not as frequently these days with all the LPV’s).  It’s Alarming how much extra runway is eaten up even with 5kts of tailwind.  
 

So, I guess the saying now goes- “Tailwinds and blue skies, unless you’re landing or trying to practice instrument approaches in actual”. 

[201er]

10 minutes ago, 81X said:

It’s Alarming how much extra runway is eaten up even with 5kts of tailwind.

5kts of tailwind is actually 10kts difference compared to landing the other way. It adds up quick. 10kt tailwind is brutal for this reason.

[carusoam]

The extra scary part…

When departing downwind….

The tail wind may be growing with altitude…

Soooo…..

If you are barely flying because of the short-ish runway…

As you get above the trees and things… the tail wind may be growing…

 

knowing your wind conditions is an important part of self defense… 

 

And the heavier the plane… the more challenging things become….

I watched a twin land long at Falmouth Airpark… then lock the brakes…. Then go off the end of the runway….  No tailwind  required….

Best regards,

-a-

[kortopates]

6 hours ago, carusoam said:

The good news… Dickard is able to write….

 

From the As Seen on MS files….
 

When pressure systems are moving through the area….

A strong head wind can turn into a strong tail wind as you go out for a flight… it can happen in less than an hour…

 

1) This came up more than a decade ago…. And I believe @Gagarin offered a suggestion…. For what he used to make sure this isn’t happening to you….

1.5) It is normal to find the windsock and see what it is doing… or not doing… early on…  no windsock?

2) The GPS offers several good pieces of information….

3) One piece of info that can be incorporated into the GUMPs check is comparing your Ground Speed to your airspeed….

4) on final… Ground speed should always be less than airspeed when there is a wind…. (Or more… on down wind)

5) Always check the GPS ground speed on final….    If your ground speed is higher… go around!

 

6) +1 for @201er’s suggestion… you will recognize you are going really fast as you near the ground…. But…

7) There is a cognitive trap…

8) The landing is quite normal airspeed wise…. Just ground speed is quite elevated….

9) Braking distance becomes extra long while the plane is still light on its feet…

10) The trap…. By the time you are on the ground speeding, you realize you are running out of runway…. Or you just saw the windsock pointing the wrong way…

 

11) It will be hard to assess… there is going to be a strong urge to start the go around…. Without time to do the calculations…

12) starting a go around late…. After spending time on the ground…. Can easily end in a departure stall….

13) this has happened twice in NJ… once in a rental M20J, and more recently a Bravo…

14) maximum braking, stay on the centerline… better to run off the end of the runway than to stall in the air onto the road below…

15) If the mistake occurs on a short runway…. Maximum braking can be gear up… 

16) cognitive overload is common in the traffic pattern…  it’s a very busy time…

We have seen a lot happen on MS.

PP thoughts to consider… not a CFI…

Best regards,

-a-

Good summary, but lets not forget the simplistic method of all to check on winds flying into any towered airport. On tower freq just say "Wind Check please"!

Gets you real time winds instantly, no technology needed, no need to modify your existing scan.

A good habit to have for any pilot when winds aren't light. 

Edited September 3, 2022 by kortopates

[Will.iam]

Our home field has a significant elevation drop at the halfway point to where most pilots will takeoff or land with up to a 10kt tailwind to take advantage of the rising slope of the runway. However if max gross weight I’ll take the headwind.  

[Dickard]

Discretion is the better part of valor.  Smoothest landing I've made in the plane. When the nose wheel came down she darted right and attempting to straighten her out I realized how fast I was going.  Almost tipped over so I just let her go into the grass.  Baja style.

I got out of the plane and the wind hit me in the face and I spotted the small, faded wind sock stiff as a board straight down my backside.  ATC took the oportunity of me getting towed out of the grass to change the traffic pattern.  You're welcome.

Had it not been for the fact that I was a week late in getting down to Los Alamos for a visit to the lab, I wouldn't have even flown that day.  Two of three runways shut down.  It was a taxi nightmare to get from the far west side to the far east side runway.  And it was chaos with all the GA, commercial, and military traffic condensed to one runway.

Los Alamos was cool though.

[A64Pilot]

Ag guys always, or almost always land with a tailwind, they do that so that there is no time wasted taxiing, land to the loading truck, load and turn around and go.

Taxiing to the other end of the runway takes more time than they are willing to spend, because you really don’t want to takeoff loaded with a tailwind.

But they rarely fly in high winds too, exception is things like fertilizing pine trees where wind won’t blow things where they aren’t supposed to be.

[Will.iam]

Another good wind source check is small ponds where water with ripples is where the wind is going and the smooth part of the water is where the wind is coming from. Also any smoke from something burning is a great indicator of wind direction and shear altitude if at some point the smoke starts going sideways. Now with residential areas having water fountains they are also good indicators of wind speed and direction. Especially the fountains that are lit up at night. 

[carusoam]

So the next question…

At what speed does the nose wheel start to drift off center?

Often, staying on the ground too long… the nose wheel starts to shimmy…

Nothing else happens… because, raising the nose for T/O… stops the forces causing the Shimmy…

 

For perspective…

a 15kt head wind… flags and Windsocks are out straight….  my plane is on the ground moving about 50kts… showing 65kias on the ASi…

a 15kt tail wind… flags and sock still out straight… my plane would be moving 80kts on the ground, still showing 65kias…

 

This ground speed is pretty much not practiced in most Mooneys… as in hard to get experience, because we lift the nose before we are going that fast…

The usual Mooney experience for loss of control on the ground is called the 8-second ride…  when steering parts wear, the parts geometry starts to shift…

Measuring the angle uses a plumb bob…

 

If anyone feels the nose wheel shake before Vr… there are simple measurements that can indicate why…

 

Really hard to assess hitting the ground at 80kts… without an immediate go around….

Thanks to Dickard for sharing the details…

 

 

PP thinking out loud, not a CFI…

Best regards,

-a-

[Dickard]

42 minutes ago, carusoam said:

a 15kt tail wind… flags and sock still out straight… my plane would be moving 80kts on the ground, still showing 65kias…

That's what it felt like....and it SUUUUUUCKED.