ICON A5: A Great Airplane With a Deadly Appeal

[aviatoreb]

Early on Cirrus had a terrible record but it wasn't the plane's fault.  It was advertised as a personal airliner that was so safe as if anyone could fly it anywhere any time. It had a parachute - so you could always get out of jail free with that.  And there were a lot of accidents and the safety record was quite poor.

Then relatively recently the company re-evaluated their message and training programs and with a concerted effort they turned it around and now they have a super safety record.

Meanwhile the members of COPA alway enjoyed an excellent record.  In fact, those Cirrus pilots who were members of COPA tended to have a 4 times better than the rest of the Cirrus pilot population safety record.  Attribute that to good attitude to do what it takes to fly safe train right make good decisions, etc.

I bet the ICON is an excellent airplane, but it is still an airplane and not a jet-ski-toy.

BTW people get killed all the time on jet skis.  Crashing, drowning, boating drunk, etc.

[MIm20c]

2 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

I too was pretty shocked they arrived at a fresh crash scene and just gawked at it without even a thought that there could still be a survivor in there needing to be saved as quickly as possible.  It never occurred to them.

This was the very first thing I thought.  I’m not sure if they were just upset with the situation (low altitude maneuvers) or what.  Makes me wonder if a boat had capsized if they would be in the water.  I’m sure at that point it was too late but I just expected someone to jump in. 

[mike_elliott]

7 hours ago, Aviationinfo said:

Whoever made that video wasn't of much use, was he?  Wow.  He made his youtube video to show all his friends but it appears he forgot about trying to see if the poor guy flying it might have survived somehow.  Not impressive.

not uncommon. I understand when I was in an accident, there were about a dozen filming the plane burning. Fortunately, there were 2 that did something. Thanks Bobby, Stan. Last week in Cartagena, I saw a pickup truck hit a parked car and began burning. Same thing, lots of people pulling out there smart phones to take a video, fortunately, the driver was conscious and able to get away from it.

[aviatoreb]

14 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

not uncommon. I understand when I was in an accident, there were about a dozen filming the plane burning. Fortunately, there were 2 that did something. Thanks Bobby, Stan. Last week in Cartagena, I saw a pickup truck hit a parked car and began burning. Same thing, lots of people pulling out there smart phones to take a video, fortunately, the driver was conscious and able to get away from it.

It sort freaked me out the guy just gawking and never even for a moment even mentioned that maybe someone should do something if not him.

I like to think I would.

About two years ago there was a van that turned over on the highway, at night on icy roads on a sparsely travelled highway the 416 to Ottawa.  I got there within a minute, soon enough that the wheels were still spinning.  Me and two other guys from different cars stopped and climbed up on the van, which was sideways, to see if it was ok since no one was responding to our shouting in.  I was sort of afraid it might explode or something but then we needed to see what was the situation if he was too injured to move, or needed to be pulled out before it might burn.  Then the guy shouted back and climbed out, drunk as a skunk.  But safe.

[tigers2007]

Whoever made that video wasn't of much use, was he?  Wow.  He made his youtube video to show all his friends but it appears he forgot about trying to see if the poor guy flying it might have survived somehow.  Not impressive.

Exactly. I could of sworn that I heard in the video near the end that someone had spotted his jacket? Those boaters appeared to be on scene very quickly; I can’t believe that not one of them jumped in to search for survivors. Unreal! I really hope the pilot didn’t expire inevitably due to drowning AND it would have been easily extricated from the wreckage. This is not that big of a plane either.



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[Guitarmaster]

I too was pretty shocked they arrived at a fresh crash scene and just gawked at it without even a thought that there could still be a survivor in there needing to be saved as quickly as possible.  It never occurred to them.

I thought the same thing.

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[nels]

11 hours ago, Aviationinfo said:

Whoever made that video wasn't of much use, was he?  Wow.  He made his youtube video to show all his friends but it appears he forgot about trying to see if the poor guy flying it might have survived somehow.  Not impressive.

I thought the exact same thing!

[bradp]

additional video for context of what type of maneuvering was being performed in the pilots plane prior to the crash:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5066865/amp/Roy-Halladay-practiced-crazy-low-stunts-plane-wife.html

[bonal]

Very sad but looks like this might fall under stupid pilot tricks.  As for the video where no one even thinking to try to help I thought the same thing as others have commented. I chalk it up to the same thing that has caused a decline in our culture. People have turned into a bunch of self serving, intitlement minded you tube jerks looking for instant gratification.  Sad for his loved ones just glad he was alone when it went in.

[Danb]

2 hours ago, bradp said:

additional video for context of what type of maneuvering was being performed in the pilots plane prior to the crash:

https://www.google.com/amp/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5066865/amp/Roy-Halladay-practiced-crazy-low-stunts-plane-wife.html

Brad that's so sad and quite predictable, unfortunately it sheds poorly on the rest of us. 

[Skates97]

I can see why there were the comments about his wife not wanting him to fly. If I flew like that my wife would never fly with me and wouldn't want me flying at all.

[TonyK]

That last video drives me crazy.  When I was a kid I used to sit and watch crop-dusters work for hours.  I was always amazed that they could fly that close to the edge and still maintain control hour after hour.  When I got older and started talking to these guys a few things were universal.  1.  They didn't start off flying that close or fast on in such tight boxes. And  2.  Every one of them had lawn darted an airplane in their career.  The ones I talked to were the ones that lived through the experience.   There is a reason that groups like IAC have altitude restrictions.  They stress safety in both practice and competition.  Altitude gives options.  Perhaps the next owner of Icon will try and change that culture of complacency.

[Shadrach]

14 hours ago, PTK said:

And their own christened "test pilot" did the same thing in the May accident. The poor fool put on a flight suit and a helmet and thought he was a test pilot! But why not? Above all it's about the marketing message. All image, no substance.

"The pilot's failure to maintain clearance from terrain while maneuvering at a low altitude. Contributing to the accident was the pilot's mistaken entry into a canyon surrounded by steep rising terrain while at a low altitude for reasons that could not be determined." /NTSB

You know nothing of Jon Karkow's experience, skill or education. The fact that it happened to him should reinforce that experience, skill and education are not always enough.  Rather than calling a man of his accomplishments "test pilot" in quotes, you would do better to consider that he was far more experienced and skilled than you and he made a mistake that killed himself and another.

ICON is in dark days and may never recover. They certainly have made many missteps in terms of business and marketing. That being said, of the two fatal accidents, one was a errant turn with no way out and the other is still under investigation. Notwithstanding the amature video and four letter commentary from the "boat bro" (I bet he and his family are proud of this video), this most recent crash was S/N 001 in the first production run, I'd not rule out anything in terms of probable cause until the investigation is finished.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Shadrach

[Hank]

4 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Notwithstanding the amature video and four letter commentary from the "boat bro",  this most recent crash was S/N 001 in the first production run, I'd not rule out anything in terms of probable cause until the investigation is finished.

All goes back to the old line, "Never buy the A Model of anything," which I've seen twice:  dad bought a new model Impala when I was a kid, drove it 12 hours to the family reunion a couple months later,  couldn't go home. Ten years later, he bought Mom "the New Chevrolet," a rolling package of errors, mistakes and problems . . . Note that my Mooney is a C model, and not an early one, either!  

Best wishes for the future of Icon, but it may well be short lived. RIP, Roy Halladay.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Hank

[DXB]

On 11/8/2017 at 3:23 PM, GeorgePerry said:

High profile ICON pilots fatal accidents

 

Nice article -it wasn't clear me at first that this was actually a link to an article by George Perry in his original post. Maybe I'm the only idiot, but just in case anyone else missed it.

[carusoam]

Dev,

Thanks for pointing that detail out.  I didn't recognize the link either...  looked like a title?

 

Hey @GeorgePerry is there a way to make your link more recognizable as a link?

 

George is one of the best and experienced aviation writers on and off the planet...

 

Best regards,

-a-

[carusoam]

How the USAToday portrays the accident....

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

Check out this article from USA TODAY:

Smaller planes like the one Roy Halladay crashed are growing in popularity, but also risky

 

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/11/09/smaller-planes-like-one-roy-halladay-crashed-growing-popularity-but-also-risky/850091001/

 

 

 

[Skates97]

What an extremely misleading article. They have a point they are trying to make and shaping the article to make it. Sadly most people know little about flying and will believe everything they are saying. 

[Andy95W]

Oh, they've been doing that for years.  The USAToday is sold mostly in airports where people are going for a flight or given away in hotels where people had to fly to get there.

Scary stories about flying sells papers and sells advertising- and has been doing it well for years.

Makes you wonder what MSNBC, Fox News, and CNN are peddling to sell advertising and to make money.

[Tommy]

There is no such thing as a young bold pilot.

Regardless the cause, celebrity pilots had been a double-edged sword for general aviation. Great to have them as spokesperson but when they crash (or land on the taxiway)....

No sympathy for ICON as a company though. Instead of promoting aviation safety, it taunts it, paying its marketing strategy with people's life including its chief engineering pilot and now Roy.

[PTK]

This accident illustrates the inherently flawed design of the Icon. The canopy swings up to open. Halladay found himself inverted under water and trapped. There was no way he could've opened that canopy in time to try and escape. An aft sliding canopy like the Searey is a much better design. 

[Deb]

1 hour ago, PTK said:

This accident illustrates the inherently flawed design of the Icon. The canopy swings up to open. Halladay found himself inverted under water and trapped. There was no way he could've opened that canopy in time to try and escape. An aft sliding canopy like the Searey is a much better design. 

From Beechtalk: https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=145263&start=165

Still have to ask....if it gets upside down how do you exit? It seems like you have to push the canopy down against the water when inverted. Is this easy to do? It doesn't appear this is was an issue as the cockpit was pretty well destroyed. Inquiring minds want to know...

Window inserts on both sides of canopy open/are removed inward.

[aviatoreb]

5 hours ago, Andy95W said:

Oh, they've been doing that for years.  The USAToday is sold mostly in airports where people are going for a flight or given away in hotels where people had to fly to get there.

Scary stories about flying sells papers and sells advertising- and has been doing it well for years.

Makes you wonder what MSNBC, Fox News, and CNN are peddling to sell advertising and to make money.

Usually if I know the topic well that is being written about, then I have the impression that they are being significantly misleading.

[BigAl]

2 hours ago, PTK said:

This accident illustrates the inherently flawed design of the Icon. The canopy swings up to open. Halladay found himself inverted under water and trapped. There was no way he could've opened that canopy in time to try and escape. An aft sliding canopy like the Searey is a much better design. 

He wasn’t trapped at all. Unfortunately the cockpit disintegrated. If you will go back and look at the video you’ll notice it isn’t attached to the airplane. The wings are inverted in the water and facing toward the tail which means everything else was detached. I also heard they found Roy closer to shore. 

[Ftlausa]

As one who personally enjoys aerobatic flight, on one level I can understand the appeal Halladay apparently fell prey too.  That said, when I fly aerobatics its above 3,000 feet and well away from people on the ground.  With the low altitude flying he was doing, it was probably only a mater of time before something went wrong. 

I hope Icon training is emphasizing the risks inherent in low level flying, as well as the altitude regulations that Halladay was apparently violating.  Sad to see this type of outcome both for the pilot and for Icon, as well as for GA in general.