Seriously approaching buying a new plane

[mkerian10]

Hey team. I've posted a thread before. A great amount of discussion was generated off that and I've entered a new phase in my life so I wanted to post again. I've recently received solid news in my career and I may be able to comfortably afford a plane sooner than I thought. This is something I'm very uncomfortable with so I was hoping I could get the community's input on a lot of things and generally gather the wisdom that is apparent here. 

 

Overall I don't see any value in a J+ for me. I'm a single pilot who will either be taking on >2 for small rides to show off my plane or <=2 for xc trips. I want a short-body C/E preferably E for the extra speed relative to price. I've considered experimentals and while I'm not opposed to them I think where I'm at in life it's just not for me. I'm a bit too green for that. 

 

I currently don't have a PPL. This is understandably a problem. Originally I was just lolly-gagging my way through PPL since I didn't have any immediacy. I was planning on going PPL -> ??? maybe buy a Mooney??? -> IR -> plane. Complex and HP and maybe a twin somewhere in there for the shit of it. I don't want to get a plane before a PPL but now I'm considering buying a plane before my IR and using said plane for my IR. Of course it depends on the plane. Now my plan is much more PPL -> Plane -> IR with less room for error. Now that you have context please let me state my questions

 

1. Buying a plane is scary. How do I know if I'm getting a decent price? This was essentially my old post but now it's significantly more serious. I've been tracking essentially every Mooney listed since I made that post but it's still a tough position to be in. This is the most broad question, what should I do now that I'm seriously looking to buy a plane with absolutely zero experience in buying a plane?
2. I live in Sioux City, IA. I'm pretty sure there's a Mooney place in Lincoln, NE (which is perfect since I went to school there) but I'm worried about maintenance. Not because of distance but just in general, I'm very new to not only plane ownership but also planes. Are there any worries in living in a place like this? Anything specifically to worry about?
3. I'm not a mechanic by any stretch of the imagination. I enjoyed playing with little electronic kits my parents got me when I was young but that's about it. I'm fully willing to work on my plane and do whatever but I see what other people do and it makes me worried. I'm a big learner and am willing to learn how to work on my plane but given it's my life at stake I'd rather have a professional do what a professional does. I'm sure over time I'll get more comfortable but this ties into my previous point. How often am I going to have to make semi-critical fixes to my plane?
4. Just anything else. I'm very new to not only plane ownership but aviation as a whole. I really got into it because a year and a half ago I started playing Microsoft Flight Simulator and enjoyed it. Any and all advice or warnings you could give would be great.

 

Thank you. I've really enjoyed this community the last few months and I'm grateful to be a (silent) part of it.

 

EDIT: Additionally I'm interested if anyone is willing to take me up in a Mooney ( would pref C/E but am open to all). I'm willing to take a small vacation so works for me. I'm not looking to take controls but just get in one and talk to an actual Mooney owner.

Edited April 8, 2023 by mkerian10

[M20F]

Find a good mechanic then do all the other stuff.  

[Pinecone]

If the price works for you, it is a good price.  Over the life of the plane, the price is a small part.

Big thing is get a GOOD pre-purchase inspection.  That will save you a lot in the long run.

Modern panels are not cheap, so, IMO, get a reasonable one to start out.

I would really consider a J or beyond.  The extra speed is nice.  In the philosophy to buy your last airplane first. Or Buy Once, Cry Once.  If you are looking at much travel to the west of you, turbo would be nice.

As has been said, find a good mechanic first.  I can't help you in IA, but locally I have a great Mooney guy nearby and the shop at my field is also quite good with a good bit of Mooney experience (3 on the field).

[Austintatious]

Good advice above.   I can give a few nuggets.

 

-Really the only way to know you are getting a good price is to make sure that the price is in line with other options on the market and then haggle as much as you can to get that price down. 

-Make sure you are getting a good engine...  Do not buy an aircraft that has been sitting forever and not flying.  Stay away from engines that were overhauled 20 years ago and only have 400 hours on them...  TBO is not the only thing to consider.  TBO is a recommendation, but less talked about is a 10 year recommended Overhaul interval despite hours on the engine.   Check the logbooks, I once looked at a mooney rocket that was only getting oil changes every 80-100 hours and only flying 30 hours a year!   For the plane I bought, I actually spoke to the over hauler about the engine to verify everything.  That may sound extreme but engines are not cheap and people do stupid stuff...  Like ding a prop and then send the engine to an over-hauler and start to pinch pennies.    Buying a High time engine at a low price is definitely an option.  If the engine has flown a lot regularly  and you get the aircraft at a much lower price than a comparable aircraft with a low time engine, you may be able to fly a lot before you have to overhaul and thus come out better off on a per hour operation basis once you do overhaul.

-Changing things like avionics is VERY expensive.  It is sort of like putting in a pool.  Cost a ton and you probably wont get the money back when you sell.  So, find an aircraft with avionics you can live with.

-I would definitely recommend that if you find an aircraft you want to move forward on and do a PPI (pre purchase inspection)  you contact Saavy aviation.  They could end up saving you a lot of money and time.  And if you do end up with the plane, you could upgrade to their management service (at a discount if you used them for pre buy) , which as a new owner and pilot you may find useful.

-Finding a good mechanic is definitely a real issue... it has been the single most awful part for me becoming an aircraft owner.  I wont get into it in depth here, but please figure out if you even have any around you before you dive in... If you cant find a mechanic around you that can work on the aircraft, it can be a pain.  Get a list going and have as many as you can on it.   Saavy may even be able to help on that front.

-That all goes for hangar as well... have you considered where you want to keep the plane? Is there a waiting list?  Dont wait to find this out.

-Have you factored insurance into the cost of ownership?  For a Nice J model with your experience you may be looking at around 300 monthly.  You might be able to get a rough quote from an insurance broker... Try Falcon Insurance agency.

 

I would hunt of some of Mike Bushes (saavy aviation)  videos on you tube, he has a lot of content you would find relevant.

 

I would be happy to give a ride if you find yourself in Dallas/Fort worth.

 

 

 

[Yetti]

The F is kind of the best of a J without the bump in price.  It has fuel injection which is one less thing to worry about (carb heat)  Although the Mooney does not generate carb ice like some other planes.   A later model F will have all the prior ADs done at the factory so they don't apply.   There are very few ADs after 1973.   Don't look at the acquisition cost.  That will pale in comparison maintenance cost.   Have $10K in the bank after you buy it because you might/probably need it.   Engage your instructor int the purchase.   They know things or will want to help.  Buy your last plane first.

[Yetti]

You can't fly your 401K

[glbtrottr]

I’ve bought and sold a few mooneys over the years. I own a K model and an E model as I type this.

I bought my first airplane at 19.

I just got done typing something similar in another thread.

- don’t be scared. Find the most paranoid mechanic to help with inspecting an airplane near where you are, and do an annual as a pre-purchase. If nothing catastrophic shows, you have a fresh and thorough annual to enjoy for a year. If not, you’re out the inspection cost- cheaper than owning a paper weight.

- Mooneys aren’t as common or as easy to work on due to space and tolerance, but they’re not that unusual. Smaller clearances behind the engine, a tight space behind the avionics panel. The horn needs a good looking at. Check out the donuts. Elevator weights have an AD. Make sure the wet wings don’t leak. A mooney specific mechanic knows all the things to look for - specially if they fly.

- don’t limit yourself to your geography. Many fine birds in sunny dry places, though mooneys seem to be in demand more than usual thanks to inflated gas prices

- avionics are overrated. I’m of the opinion that most if not all mooneys came well equipped for IFR flight out of the factory. Yes, avionics shops are printing money thanks to Garmin and the Obama administration’s wonderful panic creation and mandating ADSB, but you don’t need to blow $100k to keep up with the joneses and tell everyone how many monopoly Garmin properties you have. A handheld and a nice portable work fine in a pinch, including foreflight or any recent Garmin EFB. Don’t feed the beast. This comes from someone that installs avionics and paints airplanes for a living

Your budget is important also. I will have a J model for sale on the flight line next week, and a C model coming up. No need to wait to finish your training to buy one. Most aren’t that scary

[Hank]

A good C makes a great ride. Many of us here started with a C; many have them as retirement rides; and personally, the C that I bought in 2007 with a still-damo PPL will be my retirement ride, too.

The difference between C and E is 20 hp, typically a few dollars, and a different set of problems going from carburetor to fuel injection. The C is stone simple, even with electric gear and flaps.

Buy the Mooney that fits your budget, with the best installed avionics, in the best mechanical condition that you can find, as long as it has been regularly flown the last several years. It will be much, much nicer than not flying!

Just be prepared for ugly insurance premiums the first year, and expect them to come down when you have 100 hours in type, and when you get the Instrument Rating. Until then, Fly it a lot and have fun!

[MikeOH]

Lot's of good advice above.  I was in your shoes five years ago with many of the same concerns. To reiterate and add my $0.02:

1) Don't wait!  If you can afford it (see below) then buy now.  I learned to fly when I was in high school, flew for a few years, got married, had kids...and rented until the kids were out of college and the house paid off.  I wish I had purchased earlier in my life as I would have flown more with the family and had many more great memories.

2) Buy a plane that has been flown consistently for at least a few years. (The PO had flown mine around 100 hours/year for over a decade).  In a way, frequent and consistent use tends to be good evidence that the plane has been properly maintained.

3) While I can't speak from experience on this one, I think it would be wise to learn in an FBO rental.  You will make some 'firm' landing while learning; beat up someone else's plane!  Renter's insurance is WAY cheaper (and you will be paying multi-thousands as a low-time, non-IFR, Mooney owner). Ensures you really like to fly; dropout rates are pretty high.  Don't put yourself in a position that you can't use something you own!

4) Don't focus too much on the purchase price; buy what you want and can afford, but the REAL costs are those of ownership, NOT acquisition.  I've owned my 1970 M20F for a little over five years and fly 65-85 hours/year (I thought I'd fly over 100/year; not that uncommon to overestimate) and it has run between $13K to $18K per year, all in (southern California, hangar cost $350/month).  Make certain you can swing those costs on top of any payments for the plane itself (if you finance).  I do some of my own work under an A&Ps supervision and probably save a couple thou a year.  Some will tell you I'm spending way more than I should and could, but think about this: fuel cost is around $5K of that, hangar is another $4K, oil changes/databases/property tax $1K. So, the 'rest' of the costs are $3K to $8K including annual, repairs, and upgrades.

Good luck!

[carusoam]

Selecting a Mooney that is perfect for you… is as easy as ABC…V!

If you ever have to re-learn the alphabet… this is an easy way to do it…
 

A) Get an M20A… if you like composites… technically, wood was the first composite used in planes 100 years ago… 180 is a lot of ponies…

B ) Get an M20B… All metal, short body… it has to be the lowest entry cost of all the Mooneys… comes with the short rudder throw.

C) Get an M20C after the 1965 Model year… it is the most bullet proof, and highly updated, of all Mooneys including its O360. (Figuratively  speaking, don’t actually shoot one to somehow prove a point)  the rudder gets even longer in later models…

D) If you can find the M20D Master on its fixed gear… it is special.  Otherwise, it is just an M20C in a Master’s fine robe.

E) Get an M20E it is the most advanced 2+2 on the market… and it can pull 2G in a steep turn, better than a Corvette on gatorback radials!  Complete with an IO360 for comfy cruise in LOP…

F) Get an M20F for its full back seat luxury… someday, way off into the future, when you live in your back seater’s house… you can remind them of how you went out of your way for their comfort back in the day…  like an E limo…stretched.

G) Get an M20G… same back seat luxury as the F, with the bullet proof O360… your friends will call you the turtle, while you flash them all the dough you saved up front…

H) Don’t get an M20H…

I) Don’t even look for an M20I(i)…

J) Get an M20J… the second coming of composites arrived, improving aerodynamics of every corner… few planes meet the speed or efficiency of this bird… UL continued to improve with later airframes…

If you love your high powered engine shoe horned into small frames… Go Missile!

K) Get an M20K… because you have taken flying to the next level… the flight levels! The first mid body Mooney with a TC, standard…

If you thought the Missile was cool… the Rocket is even cooler!

L) Get an M20L… If you like bleeding edge technology that is 30years old already… The PFM is for you… This is the first Long Body. wait… check on valve spring availability for these plane’s engines before purchase… or see that the Porsche engine has been replaced with something different….

M) Get an M20M… If you like to fly in the front seat of a personal airliner… the TLS is special.  Its Bravo edition is even specialer… Turbo Lycoming Sabre…

N) Where’d the N goooo…!

O) Look for R when looking for an O!

P) Look for Gatorade bottles when this comes up… some use ziplocks, other has a tube….  Look for José he is around here somewhere…HF radios, tubes, and flying across the Atlantic… Go José!  @Gagarin if you are out there, push the like button…

R) Look for the best NA Mooney on and off the planet…M20R, Ovation!.  Long body, now available with 310hp… better Power:weight ratio than your Corvette… (unless your corvette got delivered after 2022 and has a flat crank or electric spare motor)  very similar to the M20C, just more Mooney!

S) Look for the Colin Chapman inspired speedster… M20S.  First they simplified it, then they added lightness… and on the sixth day… Rocket engineering upped the power… for 310hp performance… find the Screamin’ Eagle…

T) Looking for an improvement to the venerable Ovation… the only way to do that is get an M20TN… like an O with a pair of snails, replete with their own MP controllers, and intercoolers… Go Acclaim!

U) Looking for newer and better than the Ovation that dad flys…? Go Ultra! Like a Standing O but, four versions newer, 310hp and WAAS color screens galore, PIC gets his own door, and they threw on some large composite panels just for fun!

V) Lottery winnings are in the bank… Show me the Mooney!… Fastest, four seat, factory built, TN’d, GA Plane, on or off the planet…. Go Acclaim Ultra!  Faster than an Indy car on the back straight… and doesn’t take a pit stop in twice the distance…

W) Wait there’s more… 

There are a bunch of mods that have added a TN, or some aerodynamics, or have moved a more powerful engine into the airframe… I have covered only a few…

Let me know if I missed anything… this is just a list off the top of my pointed head… 

Best regards,

-a-

[McMooney]

M,  my opinion as a newish owner, 6 years now.

 

ownership is NOT easy, but it is rewarding.  If you know you won't be satisfied with anything but ownership, buy asap,, don't wait 20 years like myself.

purchase price:  argue, beg, pick, haggle etc... till you at-least don't feel you took it in the rear, maintained, good chance you get this back. 

As has been stated, buy as much as you can possibly afford. A plane without avionics is better than not having a plane but it's far cheaper and less stressful to just buy and fly.  It is almost a truism, ownership cost will eventually DWARF your purchase price.

real numbers:  i pay 12au/yr before rolling it out of the hanger.  that's hangar, insurance, annuals,  some dbs etc...,

Currently waiting/stressing for my second round of avionics to be installed.  Total avionics in 6 years is about 30au, random maintenance/upgrades another 10 to 15 au.

next,  extended range tanks, then new autopilot, then paint, etdc..... see where i'm going?

hopefully I make a large profit on over my original purchase price, but it'll only be a dent in total ownership cost.  

For your sanity, never add up these cost and just accept it isn't a reasonable thing.

 

so now what you own it, you have to fly it.  sounds fun and it is, but,,,,, as you are really more a steward than an owner, you have to go fly it even when you'd rather be doing other things.  I believe the worse thing you can do for your bird is to let her sit.  ever notice how flight school planes last forever?  don't be paranoid it shouldn't fall apart from sitting two weeks but more is better.

honestly, this is your second girlfriend.

Maintenance, DO, find someone you trust and preferably, base your plane on the same field.  Really, due to the rules, they'll most likely see your girl more often than you.

learn how to do the simple stuff, oil changes, tires, brakes, plugs, batteries, lights etc...  1 it saves you money 2 it saves on downtime 3 why actually own it if you aren't willing to get a little dirty.  don't be scared, they are really simple machines.

oh yeah, airplane hardware is unique to airplanes, limit shopping at autozone.  

study up on fbo's and their pricing,  some places can surprise you.  

other than that gumpfs, Gumpfs, GUMPFS at ever possible point in the pattern and you should be fine.

forgot, when looking make sure you have the plane checked for corrosion, first and foremost.   this will kill the plane.  Engines, skins, (hopefully)gear etc... can be replaced but corrision somewhere it shouldn't be will put her down for good.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2023 by McMooney

[glbtrottr]

Selecting a Mooney that is perfect for you… is as easy as ABC…V!
If you ever have to re-learn the alphabet… this is an easy way to do it…
 
A) Get an M20A… if you like composites… technically, wood was the first composite used in planes 100 years ago… 180 is a lot of ponies…
B ) Get an M20B… All metal, short body… it has to be the lowest entry cost of all the Mooneys… comes with the short rudder throw.
C) Get an M20C after the 1965 Model year… it is the most bullet proof, and highly updated, of all Mooneys including its O360. (Figuratively  speaking, don’t actually shoot one to somehow prove a point)  the rudder gets even longer in later models…
D) If you can find the M20D Master on its fixed gear… it is special.  Otherwise, it is just an M20C in a Master’s fine robe.
E) Get an M20E it is the most advanced 2+2 on the market… and it can pull 2G in a steep turn, better than a Corvette on gatorback radials!  Complete with an IO360 for comfy cruise in LOP…
F) Get an M20F for its full back seat luxury… someday, way off into the future, when you live in your back seater’s house… you can remind them of how you went out of your way for their comfort back in the day…  like an E limo…stretched.
G) Get an M20G… same back seat luxury as the F, with the bullet proof O360… your friends will call you the turtle, while you flash them all the dough you saved up front…
H) Don’t get an M20H…
I) Don’t even look for an M20I(i)…
J) Get an M20J… the second coming of composites arrived, improving aerodynamics of every corner… few planes meet the speed or efficiency of this bird… UL continued to improve with later airframes…
If you love your high powered engine shoe horned into small frames… Go Missile!
K) Get an M20K… because you have taken flying to the next level… the flight levels! The first mid body Mooney with a TC, standard…
If you thought the Missile was cool… the Rocket is even cooler!
L) Get an M20L… If you like bleeding edge technology that is 30years old already… The PFM is for you… This is the first Long Body. wait… check on valve spring availability for these plane’s engines before purchase… or see that the Porsche engine has been replaced with something different….
M) Get an M20M… If you like to fly in the front seat of a personal airliner… the TLS is special.  Its Bravo edition is even specialer… Turbo Lycoming Sabre…
N) Where’d the N goooo…!
O) Look for R when looking for an O!
P) Look for Gatorade bottles when this comes up… some use ziplocks, other has a tube….  Look for José he is around here somewhere…HF radios, tubes, and flying across the Atlantic… Go José!  [mention=18869]Gagarin[/mention] if you are out there, push the like button…
R) Look for the best NA Mooney on and off the planet…M20R, Ovation!.  Long body, now available with 310hp… better Power:weight ratio than your Corvette… (unless your corvette got delivered after 2022 and has a flat crank or electric spare motor)  very similar to the M20C, just more Mooney!
S) Look for the Colin Chapman inspired speedster… M20S.  First they simplified it, then they added lightness… and on the sixth day… Rocket engineering upped the power… for 310hp performance… find the Screamin’ Eagle…
T) Looking for an improvement to the venerable Ovation… the only way to do that is get an M20TN… like an O with a pair of snails, replete with their own MP controllers, and intercoolers… Go Acclaim!
U) Looking for newer and better than the Ovation that dad flys…? Go Ultra! Like a Standing O but, four versions newer, 310hp and WAAS color screens galore, PIC gets his own door, and they threw on some large composite panels just for fun!
V) Lottery winnings are in the bank… Show me the Mooney!… Fastest, four seat, factory built, TN’d, GA Plane, on or off the planet…. Go Acclaim Ultra!  Faster than an Indy car on the back straight… and doesn’t take a pit stop in twice the distance…
W) Wait there’s more… 
There are a bunch of mods that have added a TN, or some aerodynamics, or have moved a more powerful engine into the airframe… I have covered only a few…
Let me know if I missed anything… this is just a list off the top of my pointed head… 
Best regards,
-a-

Dang.

Congrats on a masterful post.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[exM20K]

2 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Lot's of good advice above.  I was in your shoes five years ago with many of the same concerns. To reiterate and add my $0.02:

1) Don't wait!  If you can afford it (see below) then buy now.  I learned to fly when I was in high school, flew for a few years, got married, had kids...and rented until the kids were out of college and the house paid off.  I wish I had purchased earlier in my life as I would have flown more with the family and had many more great memories.

2) Buy a plane that has been flown consistently for at least a few years. (The PO had flown mine around 100 hours/year for over a decade).  In a way, frequent and consistent use tends to be good evidence that the plane has been properly maintained.

3) While I can't speak from experience on this one, I think it would be wise to learn in an FBO rental.  You will make some 'firm' landing while learning; beat up someone else's plane!  Renter's insurance is WAY cheaper (and you will be paying multi-thousands as a low-time, non-IFR, Mooney owner). Ensures you really like to fly; dropout rates are pretty high.  Don't put yourself in a position that you can't use something you own!

4) Don't focus too much on the purchase price; buy what you want and can afford, but the REAL costs are those of ownership, NOT acquisition.  I've owned my 1970 M20F for a little over five years and fly 65-85 hours/year (I thought I'd fly over 100/year; not that uncommon to overestimate) and it has run between $13K to $18K per year, all in (southern California, hangar cost $350/month).  Make certain you can swing those costs on top of any payments for the plane itself (if you finance).  I do some of my own work under an A&Ps supervision and probably save a couple thou a year.  Some will tell you I'm spending way more than I should and could, but think about this: fuel cost is around $5K of that, hangar is another $4K, oil changes/databases/property tax $1K. So, the 'rest' of the costs are $3K to $8K including annual, repairs, and upgrades.

Good luck!

This post pretty well covers it, IMHO.

If there is a local flying club you can get in/out of easily, then that would be a really good way to do the private and build some time.  For the instrument, I’d want the same avionics and autopilot across the planes I’m using.  One of the best reasons to own your own plane is being able to take trips away, which can be difficult in a club plane.  But without an instrument rating, these can create a lot of weather/schedule stress.  Doing the instrument in your own plane also will help you build time in make/model, which may help on insurance.

As noted above, a frequently flown plane is preferable to a low hour option, all other things being equal. Disuse kills planes deader than anything.

Fwiw, I first owned a Cherokee 140, in which I did my instrument rating, and while it was (and still is) a great plane for that task, it lacked UL and speed sufficiently to put me into a Mooney 231.  Buy right, buy once…. And all that.  Inspecting, closing, and getting a plane up to *your* standards is expensive, and I would have been better off going right to the 231, maybe.

Oasis is a very knowledgeable Mooney shop not too far from you.  They do get busy and backed up, but you would benefit greatly by getting to know Eric.  They are located in Willmar, MN KBDH.  https://oasisaero.com

 

Good luck.

-dan

[Red Leader]

Owning a Mooney as your first airplane, even before getting your PPL, may not be the best idea. It is a lot of aircraft - complex and fast. It is easy to get behind any airplane but the faster you go, the easier it is to get yourself into a situation your lack of experience cannot get you out of. 

I own a 231, that's the M20K (6-cyl Turbo) and it is very fast but also very efficient. There are faster Mooney's but it is probably the most efficient speed vs. fuel burn you will find. This, however, is my 4th aircraft. If you are working on your private, IMHO I would recommend either renting or purchasing a Piper 140 or Cessna 152. Their operational costs are much lower than a Mooney and are far more forgiving of mistakes. Because of their speed, or lack thereof, it would be simpler for someone less experienced to operate without any trouble while learning what you need to know. Only once you have become accustomed to owning an aircraft, only then could you decide for yourself if the costs of owning/operating an aircraft as wonderful as the Mooney is right for you.

[carusoam]

Normal progression…

1) Trainer towards 100hrs…

2) Four cylinder Mooney… for a few 100 more hours…

3) Turbo Mooney… the flight levels take on a whole new level of preparation…

4) Super high performance Mooney (around 300 hp)

5) Combine 3&4… get Acclaim!  (End Goal)

Sure there are people that have skipped certain steps…  like going straight to Long Body for primary training…   (See @Schllc below…)

Just know there is plenty to know as you go through all of the stages… seek the training, get the experience, enjoy!!!

 

Let’s say your regular day job is driving fast cars around a race track…

It would be normal that your Mooney CFII is training you in your Ultra Acclaim… 

 

Let’s say your dad flys an Ovation…  special rules for special people right?

It would be normal that your dad introduces you to the best trainer and CFI at your airport…. 

 

Some people learn faster and better and more complete than others…

Get started and see how far you get… see what gives you challenges… see what gets in the way of progress….

 

How far do you want to go?

Do you have a mentor?

We bought our M20C about when I had 100 hours…  it was a big experiment, to see if GA would work for us… we had no aviation experience to draw from…

The C was our base case…  two tiny kids fit in the back…

An E cost 10amu more

An F cost another 10amu on top of that..

The J was in stratospheric levels from there…

WAAS GPS were just invented… only affordable in portable forms…

PP thoughts only, not a CFI… or finance administrator… encouraging everybody to make it happen!

Best regards,

-a-

[Pinecone]

14 hours ago, carusoam said:

K) Get an M20K… because you have taken flying to the next level… the flight levels! The first mid body Mooney with a TC, standard…

If you thought the Missile was cool… the Rocket is even cooler!

GREAT synopsis.

But some expansion on the M20K.

There are 3 models of M20K.

M20K 231 - This was the first turbo charged Mooney.  Basically a M20J 201 with a 6 cylinder Continental TSIO-360 with 210 HP.  A bit more work to fly as it does not have an auto waste gate and no intercooler.  They can be added though.

M20K 252 - This where they added the intercooler and auto waste gate.  Also came standard with speed brakes.

M20K Encore - A 252 with a slightly different engine (220 HP) and a higher gross weight.  Nicer interior.

The sweet spot, IMO, is the 252.  Mainly because you can easily convert it to Encore specs and get a 230 pound GW increase, and they are lighter than the Encore.  But I am a BIT biased, as that is what I own.   Cruising in the mid-teens, I see 175 KTAS on about 10.3 GPH.   With the Monroy extended tanks that is 8 hours or 1400 miles.   Maryland to mid-FL in 5.5 - 6 hours.

[glbtrottr]

And pinecone strikes again, drat.

If we must talk about K models…

There were TWO companies that took 231’s and converted them to 252’s- one calling them 261’s and another 262’s. They were related and split up.

They took all the pieces required to make a 252 and basically made the conversion - an STC using factory engineering data. Why not? 231’s used to go through a lot of cylinders originally.

Today it would be cost prohibitive to do so. The only difference is the conversions were 14v 60amp alternators (mine with a standby alternator) instead of 28v.

Flap gap seals, curved wing tips, speed brakes, even thicker glass , Monroy long range tanks- all were added as options. I own what I was told was one of the factory demonstrators for it.

The Mooney factory took my airplane once through the assembly line in the last 10 years and make some changes - installed a kfc 150 flight director, sealed the tanks, painted the airplane, installed windows, etc.

As pinecone said, not all K models are created equal.

The engine in a 231 is a TSIO360GB and later LB1B. A 252 has a TSIO360MB as do the 261 and 262 conversions. The encore has a TSIO360SB. An MB Can be converted to an SB. A 252 Can be converted to an encore with the added horsepower and increased gross weight. A 231 cannot.

Why?

Somewhere along the line the landing gear was reportedly redesigned adding an additional gusset from what I was told - that’s the difference in airframe between the 231 and 252. As the drop test data on the gear was lost, the factory can’t document / provide data for a 231–>252–>encore conversion. It would be nice to have the added GE increase but alas we live without. A long time ago Todd at the factory and others listed this as one of the improvements their mooney skunk works would produce; I doubt Johnny would even care about making any improvements to any of these as there has been no demonstrable progress from the factory beyond making $$$$ for old parts.

Rocket engineering also swapped out the original 231 / 252 power plant for a toasty 520 engine pushing 305 knots instead of 210/220…making for a speedy airplane, but those were few and far between. Rocket won’t release their engineering data or sell the landing gear STC separate. They did agree Long ago to restart the rocket 305 conversion if enough Mooney’s paid up at one time - never gonna happen. Much easier to buy a used Bravo or Acclaim.

https://www.aviationconsumer.com/aircraftreviews/mooney-231-252-2/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[exM20K]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

The sweet spot, IMO, is the 252.  Mainly because you can easily convert it to Encore specs and get a 230 pound GW increase, and they are lighter than the Encore.  But I am a BIT biased, as that is what I own.   Cruising in the mid-teens, I see 175 KTAS on about 10.3 GPH.   With the Monroy extended tanks that is 8 hours or 1400 miles.   Maryland to mid-FL in 5.5 - 6 hours.

Also, the 252 and up have a 28V electrical system, which is preferable because if you want to consume some of that useful load with a TKS system, you may install a FIKI system rather than just the no hazard version.

-dan

[Fly Boomer]

On 4/8/2023 at 1:45 AM, mkerian10 said:

Buying a plane is scary. How do I know if I'm getting a decent price?

Lots of great info above, but the thing that was hardest for me to wrap my head around is that, compared with all the other expenses, purchase price is almost irrelevant, as long as there is nothing catastrophic wrong with the airplane.

[Schllc]

37 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Lots of great info above, but the thing that was hardest for me to wrap my head around is that, compared with all the other expenses, purchase price is almost irrelevant, as long as there is nothing catastrophic wrong with the airplane.

Exactly, buy the best plane that you can afford. 
Something upgraded already and flown regularly. 
Spending more upfront, with a good platform, will save money in the long run. 
Plus this isn’t like a car or a boat, where a fixer upper is just inconvenient.  The stakes are higher. 

I am also a proponent of get your final plane now and learn in it. 
It will likely take you longer, and cost more  to become proficient and comfortable but the more experience you have with the platform you intend to fly, the safer you will be.  
I finished my ppl in an ovation 3 with a g1000 and went straight into my ifr in that plane.  Took me about 5 months and I don’t regret any part of it. 

[carusoam]

On 4/8/2023 at 2:45 AM, mkerian10 said:

Hey team. I've posted a thread before. A great amount of discussion was generated off that and I've entered a new phase in my life so I wanted to post again. I've recently received solid news in my career and I may be able to comfortably afford a plane sooner than I thought. This is something I'm very uncomfortable with so I was hoping I could get the community's input on a lot of things and generally gather the wisdom that is apparent here. 

 

Overall I don't see any value in a J+ for me. I'm a single pilot who will either be taking on >2 for small rides to show off my plane or <=2 for xc trips. I want a short-body C/E preferably E for the extra speed relative to price. I've considered experimentals and while I'm not opposed to them I think where I'm at in life it's just not for me. I'm a bit too green for that. 

 

I currently don't have a PPL. This is understandably a problem. Originally I was just lolly-gagging my way through PPL since I didn't have any immediacy. I was planning on going PPL -> ??? maybe buy a Mooney??? -> IR -> plane. Complex and HP and maybe a twin somewhere in there for the shit of it. I don't want to get a plane before a PPL but now I'm considering buying a plane before my IR and using said plane for my IR. Of course it depends on the plane. Now my plan is much more PPL -> Plane -> IR with less room for error. Now that you have context please let me state my questions

 

1. Buying a plane is scary. How do I know if I'm getting a decent price? This was essentially my old post but now it's significantly more serious. I've been tracking essentially every Mooney listed since I made that post but it's still a tough position to be in. This is the most broad question, what should I do now that I'm seriously looking to buy a plane with absolutely zero experience in buying a plane?
2. I live in Sioux City, IA. I'm pretty sure there's a Mooney place in Lincoln, NE (which is perfect since I went to school there) but I'm worried about maintenance. Not because of distance but just in general, I'm very new to not only plane ownership but also planes. Are there any worries in living in a place like this? Anything specifically to worry about?
3. I'm not a mechanic by any stretch of the imagination. I enjoyed playing with little electronic kits my parents got me when I was young but that's about it. I'm fully willing to work on my plane and do whatever but I see what other people do and it makes me worried. I'm a big learner and am willing to learn how to work on my plane but given it's my life at stake I'd rather have a professional do what a professional does. I'm sure over time I'll get more comfortable but this ties into my previous point. How often am I going to have to make semi-critical fixes to my plane?
4. Just anything else. I'm very new to not only plane ownership but aviation as a whole. I really got into it because a year and a half ago I started playing Microsoft Flight Simulator and enjoyed it. Any and all advice or warnings you could give would be great.

 

Thank you. I've really enjoyed this community the last few months and I'm grateful to be a (silent) part of it.

 

EDIT: Additionally I'm interested if anyone is willing to take me up in a Mooney ( would pref C/E but am open to all). I'm willing to take a small vacation so works for me. I'm not looking to take controls but just get in one and talk to an actual Mooney owner.

MK, expand the above to see the highlighted areas…

1) buying expensive things should be scary… check!  This keeps us on our toes, putting in the required work.  Extra drive to not make errors…

2) I lived in the middle of nowhere… I wanted to go somewhere else… check!  This is why we have Mooneys.

3) Buying a good plane, not the cheapest plane… keeps critical fixes limited to pre-planned annual activities…. But always be prepared for the surprise… engine outs can and will happen…  I bought the cheapest M20C, and have been sharing war stories about it for a decade… but, it got me to where I am today…

4) I got a copy of MSFS in 1983… first flight lesson was a decade later…   its fun to fly a Mooney in their sim, and be able to point out where the flaws in their model occur… 

Make steps in the right direction every day…

Best regards,

-a-

[thinwing]

All the usual good advice to a first time plane purchaser..but I respectfully submit..time to get serious on your PPL....fly rental aircraft for a while...all the rest is just dreaming

[Pinecone]

I see a lot of reason to do your PP in rental aircraft.

I see a LOT of reason to do past solo in rental aircraft.   Learning to land in a Mooney could be not so great for your airplane.

[A64Pilot]

People come on here saying I don’t have my license yet but I want to buy a Mooney and we all jump up and tell them too.

‘We shouldn’t.

To begin with they don’t even know really what they want, anymore than a 15 yr old knows what kind of car is right for them, hint most want a Vette or Porsche, but unlikely they are the right car for a 16 yr old who just got their license.

Get you license, then your Instrument, then start looking, that way you only have to worry about flying, not the aircraft maintenance etc., which is more consuming than you think. Many buy but spend months and thousands before they are really flying.

‘But finally every week we collectively bemoan another gear up landing, sure it can happen to anybody, but it happens most frequently to those new to flying.

[mike_elliott]

A 15 Year old that wants a Porsche ends up in one of these when they are 18