Value of My Mooney

[Don.Tulsa]

I have a 1965/1966 Mooney M20E that for personal reasons I will be placing on the market soon. I'm not sure what a fair market value would be and would appreciate any help.

Mooney	M20E	940
AirFrame	Current Time	3222.37
	Total Time	5384.36
Engine	Total Time	3465.48
IO-360	TSMOH	1465.47
Prop	Total Time	1286.48
Hartzell	TSMOH	165.47

Complete New paint job 2022  Interior Replaced 2022

Avionics

Purchased/Installed

02/2023	1	Garmin GNC355A GPS/Comm
2023	1	Garmin G5 Electronic Flight Instruments
2023	1	Garmin G5 Electronic Flight Instruments
2023	1	Garmin GFC 500 Digital Autopilot

Garmin GTX 327 Transponder       Garmin GMA340 Audio Panel         Bendix/King KX155 TSO Comm (good display)           King VOR w/Glideslope       King KLN 94 GPS         Sigtronics EGT-101       Davtron D.C. Digital Voltage Display     Advanced Gear Warning System(Audible)     Dedicated 12-volt D.C. Outlet       Dedicated USB Outlet (5v 1A + 5v 2.1A)     Sky-Tec Starter (2019)       Plane Power Alternator Conversion (2018)     O&N Fuel Bladders, 57.3 gallon (2015)     Airwolf Oil Filter Housing/Relocation     M-20 Air Oil Separator       uAvionix tail beacon Levil BOM serial # 1071 Automatic Step Retractor Landing and Navigation Lights replaced with LED’s

Edited March 11, 2023 by Don.Tulsa
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[RoundTwo]

Are you an AOPA member? If so, you can use their VRef feature to get a good start.

[Schllc]

Some pictures would help, but it sounds well equipped with avionics, and certainly cosmetically upgraded. 

[Andy95W]

Looks like a nice, well equipped airplane.

But what exactly is the difference between Airframe “Current” Time and “Total” time?

[Ragsf15e]

Also Jimmy Garrison at GMax has a valuation guide that they will give you if you call and ask.

Pictures would help, but $80-$110k?

[Rusty Pilot]

Jimmy Garrison put together a great Mooney Value guide.  I suggest referring to it.  He has pluses and minuses for condition and avionics.  I suspect you are looking at a little over $100K in market value.  Good luck with sale.

 

[M20F-1968]

A lot to the right buyer given there are not many restored vintage birds on the market.  My F was appraised for $250,000.00 about 4 years ago.

John Breda

[ArtVandelay]

A lot to the right buyer given there are not many restored vintage birds on the market.  My F was appraised for $250,000.00 about 4 years ago.
John Breda

Is it insured for that much? I found insurance companies seem to balk at higher valuations.

[McMooney]

if mechanically sound, i'd list it at least 115 to 120k, if not higher.  let the market tell you differently.  

[Vance Harral]

At the risk of being disrespectful, I'm always puzzled by posts like this on airplane and car and RV forums and what have you.  The OP's airplane looks very nice, but it's not like it's some one-of-a-kind special case, for which no comparables can be found.

There are six M20Es up for sale on Trade-a-plane right now, a few of which are very similar matches for the OP's airplane: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?make=MOONEY&model_group=MOONEY+M20+SERIES&model=M20E&s-type=aircraft.  Yeah, there's a flip job there listed at $179K with literally brand new paint and full glass; but if you throw out the top and bottom outliers, the remaining rational listings are in the $80-85K range.  It took about three minutes of research to determine this.  Anyone who is serious about selling their airplane could spend an hour or so on TAP and Controller, and a few other spots, and get a very good idea of the current market.

It's fine to feel one's own property is "special", I guess.  I also think people sometimes post these things not because they're serious about selling, but because they want to be told something that makes them feel good about ownership.  But the bottom line is that anyone looking to buy a high-value asset is going to look at easily-accessible for-sale sites to see what's available at what price, so that's where sellers should go as well.  Works for houses, cars, RVs, motorcycles, etc, unless your asset is truly one of a kind.  Which - again with respect - the OP's airplane is not.  Ignoring that and instead asking enthusiasts on an internet forum "what do you think it's worth?" just seems like a strange way to go about things.  Feel free to tell me different, but I just don't get it.

[Echo]

My question is after looking at asking prices for E Models on Controller: What do you think its value is?

[Schllc]

12 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

At the risk of being disrespectful, I'm always puzzled by posts like this on airplane and car and RV forums and what have you.  The OP's airplane looks very nice, but it's not like it's some one-of-a-kind special case, for which no comparables can be found.

There are six M20Es up for sale on Trade-a-plane right now, a few of which are very similar matches for the OP's airplane: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?make=MOONEY&model_group=MOONEY+M20+SERIES&model=M20E&s-type=aircraft.  Yeah, there's a flip job there listed at $179K with literally brand new paint and full glass; but if you throw out the top and bottom outliers, the remaining rational listings are in the $80-85K range.  It took about three minutes of research to determine this.  Anyone who is serious about selling their airplane could spend an hour or so on TAP and Controller, and a few other spots, and get a very good idea of the current market.

It's fine to feel one's own property is "special", I guess.  I also think people sometimes post these things not because they're serious about selling, but because they want to be told something that makes them feel good about ownership.  But the bottom line is that anyone looking to buy a high-value asset is going to look at easily-accessible for-sale sites to see what's available at what price, so that's where sellers should go as well.  Works for houses, cars, RVs, motorcycles, etc, unless your asset is truly one of a kind.  Which - again with respect - the OP's airplane is not.  Ignoring that and instead asking enthusiasts on an internet forum "what do you think it's worth?" just seems like a strange way to go about things.  Feel free to tell me different, but I just don't get it.

I think sometimes t’s just a way to list the plane without paying the fee to put it in the for sale section.
Im not accusing the OP of doing that but sometimes …

[Don.Tulsa]

No it’s not. I value the input from this group and when I’m ready I will either place an ad in Trade a Plane or list it with a turn broker.

[M20F-1968]

4 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Is it insured for that much? I found insurance companies seem to balk at higher valuations.

Yes it is.

John Breda

[1980Mooney]

5 hours ago, Echo said:

My question is after looking at asking prices for E Models on Controller: What do you think its value is?

Interesting you mention looking at Controller.  GMax/Jimmy Garrison has a '65 M20E, N79808, currently there and is asking $89k,.  A topic from early January, "Aircraft sticker vs. sale price" , shows the same plane, N79808, for sale on Controller at the same price (no telling when it was first listed for sale in 2022).  It has a J windscreen, touch screen GTN650Xi, 2 GI275's (much more capable than G5) but no autopilot, It has about 1,000 hours on the engine since OH and about 3,400 hours on the airframe (about 460 less hours on the engine and about 2000 less hours on the airframe vs the OP's plane).  Point being it has been on Controller since last year and it is not selling.  

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/219228295/1965-mooney-m20e-super-21-piston-single-aircraft

On the other had the OP's plane from the one picture shows well. It has new paint, some sort of unseen new interior, a great new autopilot with a nice GPS NAV/Comm.  The engine is getting up there with about 1,500 hours since OH.  The airframe has about 5,400.  The plane has new bladders and recent prop OH for a reason that the OP did not mention - Damage History.  In 2017 it fell off the jacks, which punctured all the way through both wings,  contacting the ground on the main wheel fairings, nose gear doors, prop, exhaust pipe, etc..  The plane was scrapped by the insurance company and sold at a salvage auction.

http://www.avclaims.com/N2585W.htm

http://www.avclaims.com/n2585w_photos.htm

We can assume that it was repaired well but damage history is damage history and there is some discount.  The point being no two planes are exactly alike and these valuation estimators are only effective to a certain degree.  The OP's M20E will command some sort of premium but all things considered it is hard to say.

@VA FLYER summed it up well  "I’m no expert on values, but I’ve owned a dozen airplanes over the last 55 years, so take my thoughts with that caveat. Prices are hard to figure out because there are so many variables from one airplane to the next. Sources like V-ref are more accurate for popular airplanes with lots of sales to populate their databases.
That said, the market has been pretty crazy over the last 36 months. My sense is that prices on most models are declining a bit at present. Take price guides with a grain of salt. "

 

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[carusoam]

Jimmy GMax is the best resource for most current numbers… he often shares his price guide. And is great resource to market a great plane.
 

MooneyFlyer has a price guide that can be helpful.

Jimmy’s listings on Controller can be helpful if you can find something very similar….

Good luck with the next steps…

Best regards,

-a-

[Echo]

3 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Interesting you mention looking at Controller.  GMax/Jimmy Garrison has a '65 M20E, N79808, currently there and is asking $89k,.  A topic from early January, "Aircraft sticker vs. sale price" , shows the same plane, N79808, for sale on Controller at the same price (no telling when it was first listed for sale in 2022).  It has a J windscreen, touch screen GTN650Xi, 2 GI275's (much more capable than G5) but no autopilot, It has about 1,000 hours on the engine since OH and about 3,400 hours on the airframe (about 460 less hours on the engine and about 2000 less hours on the airframe vs the OP's plane).  Point being it has been on Controller since last year and it is not selling.  

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/219228295/1965-mooney-m20e-super-21-piston-single-aircraft

On the other had the OP's plane from the one picture shows well. It has new paint, some sort of unseen new interior, a great new autopilot with a nice GPS NAV/Comm.  The engine is getting up there with about 1,500 hours since OH.  The airframe has about 5,400.  The plane has new bladders and recent prop OH for a reason that the OP did not mention - Damage History.  In 2017 it fell off the jacks, which punctured all the way through both wings,  contacting the ground on the main wheel fairings, nose gear doors, prop, exhaust pipe, etc..  The plane was scrapped by the insurance company and sold at a salvage auction.

http://www.avclaims.com/N2585W.htm

http://www.avclaims.com/n2585w_photos.htm

We can assume that it was repaired well but damage history is damage history and there is some discount.  The point being no two planes are exactly alike and these valuation estimators are only effective to a certain degree.  The OP's M20E will command some sort of premium but all things considered it is hard to say.

@VA FLYER summed it up well  "I’m no expert on values, but I’ve owned a dozen airplanes over the last 55 years, so take my thoughts with that caveat. Prices are hard to figure out because there are so many variables from one airplane to the next. Sources like V-ref are more accurate for popular airplanes with lots of sales to populate their databases.
That said, the market has been pretty crazy over the last 36 months. My sense is that prices on most models are declining a bit at present. Take price guides with a grain of salt. "

 

 

I appreciate your time on this response.  I am blown away by the asking prices of vintage 50-60 year old short bodied E Models.  I am following and the same suspects are there week after week.  Pool is what it is.  I could not pull the trigger at current asking prices for a short body Mooney.  Does not make economic sense to me.  That said, J's are close to $200k...I think not.  C.B I am.  Lets see if SVB gets prics moving...back down.

[gmonnig]

I think you are in the $110-$120k range judging from what's out there. The market does seem to be softening up a little bit though. That just might mean it sits for sale for a couple weeks. Your engine might be 4-5yrs out from an overhaul for a new owner, otherwise it's a pretty solid equipment list. The top E's and F's are pretty easy to find the top of the "pay band" due to the J&K series keeping them down. I know a local C that has nearly the same equipment except he had EI CGR Monitor, 800hr engine and sold for $115k without even advertising it.... just all word of mouth. 

I have the same vintage model a few serial numbers off and I think it'd sell for $120k. I too have new paint, brand new interior, a big list of Garmin stuff, and a Lycoming REMAN with 200hrs on it. Only thing I don't have yet is the GFC500 (that'd price me out, didn't want one the most expensive E out there). I thought about switching to Experimentals until I got insurance quotes on Lancair and Glasairs ($6100yr). I can't find anything else on the market that can complete with the E. I've just decided to enjoy my beautiful plane and get in line for the GFC500. The added expense with be worth it to ME!

[gmonnig]

1 hour ago, Echo said:

Pool is what it is.  I could not pull the trigger at current asking prices for a short body Mooney.  Does not make economic sense to me.  That said, J's are close to $200k...I think not.  C.B I am.  Lets see if SVB gets prics moving...back down.

Can't say I blame you. Some of the planes out there are asking ridiculous prices, just look at 172 prices. They're like 175 for sale on TAP and a similar equipped Skyhawks with new P&I will be asking $180k. I'd rather give up some rear legroom, go 40kts faster for $60k less. 

[Pinecone]

172s sell for a high price as they are in demand for trainers.  The local flight school is looking to add one or two to their fleet.

I ran this through VREF, and without taking into the account the paint, it was under  $80K.

I don't see an F at $250K, when you can get a nice 252 or Encore for that price.

[Echo]

I was very interested in this J modded E, but NOT at $110k list.  Sold for ask to a Florida dweller. 

[glbtrottr]

An airplane is worth what someone will pay for it given the available viewers.

I keep seeing E, F and G models constantly for as much as $180k or more. Is it my place to ask who pays that much? Frankly a $100k panel on a 60 year old airplane seems a bit much to me, but if it’s someone’s forever airplane, why not? I’ll gladly install it.

SVB and others tanking may have an overall effect on prices - but i don’t think it will mean much on 172’s and 150’s and Cherokee’s - perhaps even 4 banger mooneys.

I recently sighed in frustration when a local skeezy flipper got a j model fir $30k. Yesterday I spoke to the owner of an A model asking $25. I’ve bought other models cheap and sold them slightly below market. A Texas highway patrol offered this widow $8k for a flying late model 150; the widow was happy when I flew it away for $13k last month…all compressions were at 80 last week with a pretty thorough annual.

An airplane is worth what someone is willing to pay for it given the available viewing purchasing market. When people willingly pay for $100k radio stacks and support inflated avionics installation and hardware costs, we have no one to blame but ourselves.

The plane should fetch between a low $85-90k to $125k in my opinion.

I have a 1966 m20e with a fresh coat of Imron, 2000 hrs ttaf, 5 spoh, 645 Sfrm w mud prop strike inspection which I’m debating on overhauling on principle, a gns430/pma7000, mx20, ADSB in and out- what should it fetch?

[gmonnig]

Whatever someone is willing pay for it now, like other have said. VREF is a good starting point but it's definitely not what someone will pay for it. One year ago my other plane sold for $12k over VREF and todays market seems even crazier. It had a lot of interest and I even came down $5k on my asking price because I got tired of answering all the phone calls/emails. So as someone else VREF'd your plane at $80k, add 70% of the paint job price, and add wiggle room. 

[ArtVandelay]

List prices are all over the place, on controller there’s a 87J Mooney with a recent overhauled engine, average panel, exterior/interior 6…$230,000, then there’s a 78J with G500 panel, new paint but engine 800 hours past TBO that’s $135,000. To bring the 87 panel/exterior up to the 78 level would cost much more than the cost of an overhaul. But the 78 has been for sale for almost a year, so clearly the high time engine is scaring people away.

[glbtrottr]

Doesn’t surprise me. Nicksons and diccionario are quoting 3-6 months out for case inspections - really? Speaking to then they don’t have enough staff to line bore cases fast enough. And we aren’t even talking about crankshaft inspections. Have you tried to buy cylinders lately ?

Buying a runout plane and you immediately have to wait 6 months to a year to fly it ? Hmmmm not so much


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