Pattern and landing speeds.

[Candy man]

What pattern speeds is everybody using?

I have a 1970 C. I use 100 mph on downwind 90 on base 80 on final and 70 across the numbers. I add about 10 degrees of flaps on downwind and dump the rest on final. 

[PJClark]

Rocket: 

Downwind and base turn minimum with gear and 50% flaps:  100 KIAS

Base:  90 KIAS

Final:  85 KIAS (flaps full)

slow from 85---75 KIAS  approx 1000-1500' before the runway threshold (with no gusts--with gust add 1/2 the gust factor)

[Hank]

1970 electric C:

• Downwind, slow to 90 mph, add Takeoff Flaps (preferably by downwind entry)
• Abeam intended point of landing, drop gear to start descent, nudge throttle back slightly
• Base, 90 mph
• Final, roll wings level at 85 mph. Adjust yoke, throttle, trim and flaps as needed to maintain glideslope
• When I know I have the field made, throttle to idle.
• Slow to 75 mph minus 5 mph fpr every 300 lb below gross at that time as I cross the fence / clearing
• Once down and under control, reach out a finger and raise flaps then lean mixture to ground ops position

[FloridaMan]

67F enter pattern at whatever speed, slow to 120 gear speed 2 miles out. 100mph on final and slow to cross numbers at 75-80mph unless attempting to be stopped within 500ft; in that case carry slow flight at 70mph across the numbers. 

Rocket: same as above, but in knots and gear speed is 130kias. Getting rid of 20-25mph on final is easy and keeps you at best glide until you really need to be slower and allows for pull power off final approaches. I operate out of a 2800ft field  

On ILS approaches, I maintain gear speed until visual. No airport in the country with an ILS has a runway so short that you can’t bleed off the extra speed after descending past decision height. 

Edited February 29, 2020 by FloridaMan

[gsxrpilot]

For me and my 252, all speeds are in knots.

Downwind - 90 to 120 knots
Base - 80 to 90 knots
Final - 70 to 90 knots

@Denver98 and I were out doing touch and goes this morning. Scott was doing the flying and did several with no flaps and several with full flaps. All accept the last were touch and goes. We're in Denver so the runway is long and sitting at 5700 ft MSL. In these conditions, no flap landings, are just easier and smoother.
 

[carusoam]

Caution on the terminology part...

Dumping flaps... is that taking them out or putting them in?
 

O is very similar to short bodies... accept our numbers are kias not mias... 

90/80/7X depending on environment and GW...

Full flaps, MGToW, stall speed, straight and level... 58

My preference is the continual U-turn to final, over the boxy turns...

PP thoughts only, not a CFI...

Best regards,

-a-

[pwnel]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

Caution on the terminology part...

Dumping flaps... is that taking them out or putting them in?
 

Thank you for pointing that out.  My instructor and I kept misunderstanding each other on this during my Commercial training.  

[FloridaMan]

Also wanted to mention to be sure your idle is set to where it runs at very low RPM, but doesn’t quit with the power out. 200RPM difference in idle RPM can be 2000+ft difference in landing distance depending on when you chop power and dramatically affect how quickly you drop airspeed. 

[carusoam]

When we want to dump the lift that is generated by flaps... we raise them...

Using the words to dump the flaps... when we might want to be dumping the lift...

Gives a great reason to formalize the words used....

Pulling the flaps up on short final when somebody is expecting you to add more... would be bad...

 

Having your CFI think you are going to raise the flaps on short final... may lessen his opinion of your skills...

Interesting things we learn about language skills while we type out our entire conversations...

Go MS!

Best regards,

-a-

[bradp]

MPH on a J. 
 

I now use no lower than 1.404 Vs during downwind (I round to100 mph which is roughly Vg at max gross which is convenient to remember) .  Gear down flaps set takeoff, min speed 100 downwind, (I’m keeping 100 base to final now).  Final -> 90, Tch ->75-80 mph (Vref).  It’s not hard to slow down and go down.  

[jlunseth]

23 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

For me and my 252, all speeds are in knots.

Downwind - 90 to 120 knots
Base - 80 to 90 knots
Final - 70 to 90 knots

@Denver98 and I were out doing touch and goes this morning. Scott was doing the flying and did several with no flaps and several with full flaps. All accept the last were touch and goes. We're in Denver so the runway is long and sitting at 5700 ft MSL. In these conditions, no flap landings, are just easier and smoother.
 

I do the same, except I am a little more finicky on base to final.  85 KIAS.  I vary the final depending on the conditions.  It lands nicely at 70-75 in calm winds with half flaps, but more speed, up to 90, and no flaps may be needed in gusty and/or crosswind conditions.  Sometimes the speedbrakes help anchor the plane to the runway when there is a need to keep the speed up for rudder authority.

[Yetti]

Usually if there is no one in the pattern, I pull back to 15mp about a mile from the downwind threshold.   By the threshold I am just above white arc.   pull up a tad to get under white arc.   Deploy bottom speed brake err um put the gear down.   do a descending U turn to the field.   It's about energy management   If it is blowing you need more energy to get to the runway.   Per the manual no turns in the pattern under 90mph without flaps deployed.  put half flaps out in the U part of the turn.    If High gonna need full flaps. 

You can watch the speeds on the videos.  I find it entertaining to learn what speed I am where, but during landing I only look at the ASI once or twice.

 

 

 

 

[donkaye]

On 2/29/2020 at 6:32 AM, PJClark said:

Rocket: 

Downwind and base turn minimum with gear and 50% flaps:  100 KIAS

Base:  90 KIAS

Final:  85 KIAS (flaps full)

slow from 85---75 KIAS  approx 1000-1500' before the runway threshold (with no gusts--with gust add 1/2 the gust factor)

The FAA suggests a stabilized approach.  Changing airspeeds along final doesn't make for a stabilized approach.  My recommendation for all mid and long body Mooneys is 90 KTS on downwind with gear down and approach flaps, turn base at the 3° slope with the aim point while simultaneously reducing power to 15" nominally and adding full flaps.  TRIM FOR HANDS OFF.  DON"T let the nose go down below 3° which it will try to do before trim has reached the hands off position.  If the slope remains at 3°, the plane will slow to 80 KTS with the additional drag created by the addition of full flaps.  Adjust final approach speed to 75 KTS (70KTS if light) as you roll level on final.  Use Pitch for airspeed and Power for ROD on final and begin the flare about 5 feet off the ground. The flare and reducing the power to idle should be done simultaneous and at the same rate for a smooth touchdown on the mains.  I have found that in most cases, depending on the wind, power can be gradually reduced near the touch down point as long as the nose is likewise lowered to keep the speed constant.  This keeps the aim point from moving towards you and results in a more accurate touch down near the aim point.

For the short body Mooneys whose airspeed is labeled in MPH, everything is the same except it's 100 MPH on downwind, 90 MPH on base and 80 MPH on final.

[Ibra]

5 hours ago, bradp said:

I now use no lower than 1.404 Vs during downwind (I round to100 mph which is roughly Vg at max gross which is convenient to remember)

You mean 1.414213*Vs (1G*square-root of 2 to make 45deg level without stall ), I use the same 1.4*Vs with decisive bank angles (less than 40deg and keep 1G)

Once wings level on final, I fly 1.3*Vs for all approaches but aim for threshold ref speed that is slightly adjusted for wind/weight/runway conditions 

Edited March 1, 2020 by Ibra

[N201MKTurbo]

15 inches on down wind.

On base turn, power as low as you can get it and stay out of the yellow arc. Might have to add some for a headwind.

Airspeed needle pointing to the right.

I usually fly my patterns kind of tight. 1/2 mile base and 1/2 mile final.

When I did my commercial, the power off landing was just a normal landing. 

[Gary0747]

Does anybody have any data on stall and maneuvering speeds for Mooneys with the wing root faring and or any of the F models with a twist wing creating wash out?  I know the factory said not much difference with the twist but some have said that reducing complexity of manufacture may have driven the elimination of the twist.  I think the Mooney Mustang was also made with a twist wing.  

[Denver98]

On 2/29/2020 at 1:31 PM, gsxrpilot said:

For me and my 252, all speeds are in knots.

Downwind - 90 to 120 knots
Base - 80 to 90 knots
Final - 70 to 90 knots

@Denver98 and I were out doing touch and goes this morning. Scott was doing the flying and did several with no flaps and several with full flaps. All accept the last were touch and goes. We're in Denver so the runway is long and sitting at 5700 ft MSL. In these conditions, no flap landings, are just easier and smoother.
 

I’ll confirm that the no flap landings were easier and MUCH smoother.  I really liked the feel of the airplane in ground effect with no flaps better than with full flaps.  I will definitely practice with different flap settings but given a long runway, no flap will probably be my preferred flap setting.  

[N201MKTurbo]

5 hours ago, Gary0747 said:

Does anybody have any data on stall and maneuvering speeds for Mooneys with the wing root faring and or any of the F models with a twist wing creating wash out?  I know the factory said not much difference with the twist but some have said that reducing complexity of manufacture may have driven the elimination of the twist.  I think the Mooney Mustang was also made with a twist wing.  

Go get some altitude and find out.

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, Denver98 said:

I’ll confirm that the no flap landings were easier and MUCH smoother.  I really liked the feel of the airplane in ground effect with no flaps better than with full flaps.  I will definitely practice with different flap settings but given a long runway, no flap will probably be my preferred flap setting.  

 

2 hours ago, Denver98 said:

I’ll confirm that the no flap landings were easier and MUCH smoother.  I really liked the feel of the airplane in ground effect with no flaps better than with full flaps.  I will definitely practice with different flap settings but given a long runway, no flap will probably be my preferred flap setting.  

There are many ways to land an airplane depending on the circumstances.  For normal landings, however, full flap landings should be the norm--especially at high DA.  At the slower speed there is much less energy to be dissipated and much shorter landings can be made.  In my opinion all landings should assume a short field. so when you actually want to land on a short field, plenty of experience has already been gained.  If done correctly, with practice, you can roll the mains onto the runway without even a chirp.

[N201MKTurbo]

5 minutes ago, donkaye said:

 

There are many ways to land an airplane depending on the circumstances.  For normal landings, however, full flap landings should be the norm--especially at high DA.  At the slower speed there is much less energy to be dissipated and much shorter landings can be made.  In my opinion all landings should assume a short field. so when you actually want to land on a short field, plenty of experience has already been gained.  If done correctly, with practice, you can roll the mains onto the runway without even a chirp.

I’ve told a few people that a squeaker is a bad landing. You need to just brush the wheels on the runway and gently spin them up. It’s nice to hear it from someone else.

[bradp]

Better to land where you want with a thump than to grease it on beyond.  

[N201MKTurbo]

23 minutes ago, bradp said:

Better to land where you want with a thump than to grease it on beyond.  

It is not an ether/or thing, you can grease it on where you want.

[brndiar]

Hi,

Colud someone here describe

"Step by step"

GO- AROUND PROCEDURES

(Eventuell procedere for "balked landing")

for Mooneys (vintage Models, J+Models)?

Of course as a recommendation. 

There is no such a Procedure in Mooney operators manuals.

Incorrectly performed Go around is often cause of accidents (read some "go around mooney accident reports").

P.s. sorry for my englisch. Hopefully not of topic. 

 

Lg,

Milos

Austria

 

[ArtVandelay]

I’ve told a few people that a squeaker is a bad landing. You need to just brush the wheels on the runway and gently spin them up. It’s nice to hear it from someone else.

A bad landing? Really?
Maybe not perfect, but all hard surface landings squeak the tires somewhat, it’s sometimes it’s not loud enough to hear it.

[Yetti]

2 hours ago, brndiar said:

Hi,

Colud someone here describe

"Step by step"

GO- AROUND PROCEDURES

(Eventuell procedere for "balked landing")

for Mooneys (vintage Models, J+Models)?

Of course as a recommendation. 

There is no such a Procedure in Mooney operators manuals.

Incorrectly performed Go around is often cause of accidents (read some "go around mooney accident reports").

P.s. sorry for my englisch. Hopefully not of topic. 

 

Lg,

Milos

Austria

 

Advance the three knobs to the firewall smoothly(high DA you might not want to firewall the mixture).  level the plane. pull up the gear.  sidestep the runway while trimming. get the wing flying up the flaps a notch.  trim some more.   once the speed is up, start climb, take all the flaps out, trim for climb out.   If you firewall the plane and you were at full flaps with lots of nose up trim because you were at half flaps you are going to have to push down alot on the yoke, till you get the trim in order.   This is a benefit of landing half flaps the majority of the time.   Half flaps will have your trim set pretty much right on take off trim.