Depression loss for missing logs and damage.

[warrenehc]

Hello all,

I’m looking to purchase a Mooney M20E. The owner states the plane has all logs and no damage. The owner provided me with all logs. On page one it says “logs lost”. The plane is a 1965 and the logs start in 1973. It also says a tail number change. Searching that number it shows significant damage on the 337 in 1973. The plane has flown and passed annuals from different shops every year since 1974.

The owner has the plane priced reasonably all things considered minus the logs are not complete and significant damage reported on the 337. It appears the plane has been repaired to as new condition.

My question is what would be a % depreciation of a plane with he logs missing and significant damage. 

[skydvrboy]

I’d turn and run... after scolding the current owner for wasting my time.  There may be nothing wrong with the plane, but the seller just lied to you and everyone else by listing it as complete logs and no damage.  What else is he lying about?  Sorry, but once someone tries to pull one over on me, they aren’t getting my money.

[ragedracer1977]

Ditto

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, warren.

Did you say...

1) complete logs?

2) no damage history?

3) then, you found logs missing and damage history....?

 

 

4) Look up the words pre-purchase inspection...

5) Part of that inspection is going through all the logs, back to day one, to identify any damage or wear and how it was repaired.

6) Also Look up ‘barn find’ or bargain or cheap airplane....

7) I have no idea what a depression loss is...

8)  if you are looking for some form of depreciation because logs are missing.... do you want a plane missing all those important details?

9) read SDB’s advice above again...

10) You might be saving a few cents now for a few dollars later....

There was a great movie quoted around here somewhere... ‘run Forrest, run...’

Some planes are better for people that have experience with these kinds of things... this is not for the first time buyer.

Depression is what people feel when they find out how much of a problem this is... after they bought it.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[PT20J]

There are other airplanes out there without this baggage

[Planegary]

Just my 2 cents but I just bought a plane where owner lost the logbooks. I figured a depreciation of 50% from the value of the plane .Basically I bought the plane for parts value alone BUT I knew the owner and the plane so I was getting a known plane w/o the cost BUT plan on keeping it because it will be difficult to resell and you will take a hit on that too.So if you buy it you will probably hold onto it for a long time  On the plus side the logbooks go back far enough that documentation is long running and you can go look for any trends recurring in the maintenance records indication problems.Just make sure it is priced APPROPRIATELY for the missing logbooks.Good luck with this decision

[gsxrpilot]

Missing logs and damage history don't bother me. All my Mooneys have had damage history and the first one was missing logs. The fact the owner lied, or misled you, or was just ignorant, is concerning, but not a deal breaker for me. 

Is this E worth buying? Does it have a good autopilot, altitude hold, a WAAS GPS, standard panel layout, has been regularly flown, etc? Then I'd negotiate a really good price because of the owners fuck up, and then get a very extensive pre-buy done at the MSC of your choice. 

Post the link to the plane here, or send it to me in a PM. If it's not in the top 25% of E's available, I'd probably walk. But if it is, you might negotiate yourself into a good airplane.

[Yetti]

Properly repaired damage history from a long time ago is not a problem.   If the current owner did the damage and misrepresented then that is an issue.   If the current owner was unaware of someone else's damage, then that is another thing.

[KSMooniac]

I concur... 40 year old damage that is properly repaired is not a deal-breaker. If the rest of the plane presents well, has been regularly flying, upgraded, etc. then I would keep pursuing the deal. If you feel that the owner is lying versus a simple oversight (maybe he didn't look thru all of the logs) then you should consider walking away. A good PPI will verify repairs and look for other show-stoppers.

It is harder and harder to find planes without damage that have been flying and upgraded.

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[jaylw314]

I should point out that if you are financing the plane, some banks will not underwrite the loan if they know the aircraft is missing logs

[bradp]

I saw a plane in annual once year that was in a similar situation. Had missing logs and “no damage”.  Problem was the plane had an extra lap and rivet line on the left wing compared to the right.  Had been flying and annual for years and nobody had noticed.  

The simultaneous N-number change with the damage and missing logs is more concerning.  Do you have the old n number?  Have the repair records from the FAA?  

Properly researched, an incident 40 years ago in a plane flying regularly is not a problem.   An improperly repaired damage can be a problem 40 years later as per my anecdote above.  

I’d bet that this owner thought he had full logs and no damage when someone pulled the wool over his eyes and he’s trying to pass the favor forward.  Because of this dishonest owner I’d stay away.  How did he respond when you brought up the damage?

Remember there’s no such thing as a good deal in aviation.  

[warrenehc]

Thank you all for the information. 

[Marauder]

Thank you all for the information. 

You may want to change the title of the thread. I’m sure you are depressed that you uncovered this issue but I think you are asking about depreciation because of what you found.


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[tigers2007]

There are an endless amount of clean virgin Mooney’s out there with complete logs and no documented damage. Just be patient when you search and get someone competent to perform your pre-buy.

What appears to be up-front dishonesty about the major damage is a huge red flag. The “all logs” statement can be misconstrued in some cases. For example, I have complete airframe and propeller logs and I am missing engine logbook #1 out of 3 total. The engine has been overhauled twice. Does the first missing engine log from 1964-196X really matter?


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[N9405V]

I guess I spend my days being lied to by sellers about the condition of their properties so that doesn’t bother me. It truly is amazing what people don’t know about the things they own.

As far as the damage history, if the plane has been flying that long after the repairs, they were probably done right.

I think the thing you need to keep in mind is that if you buy this plane, these issues will come up when you go to sell it. Just my 2 cents.


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[rbridges]

My plane has a few years of the official logs missing from the 60's, but the owner used receipts to rebuild as much as possible.  I have the logs since the late 60's including the last OH.  There was a gear up in '66 that would have been in the missing years.  Given the age of my plane, it doesn't bother me so much.  The plane has been modded quite a bit, and the documentation is very thorough otherwise.  Gotta take it with everything else.  The logs themselves don't bother me so much.  If the guy knew they were missing and knowingly misled you, that's a different story.

[DAVIDWH]

Purchasing aircraft is a bit like purchasing batteries and tires.

You only get what you pay for. As for me, I prefer to pay a little more. Ie: More cranking amps and better tire mileage.

As advised in above post, "Run Forest Run".

[LANCECASPER]

All of this is a good reminder to scan and upload logbooks to the cloud. Lots of things can happen and always good to have a copy somewhere that nothing can happen to it.

[steingar]

My aircraft is missing logs from yesteryear.  I am not at all concerned with it, I really don't care about what  happened to the aircraft in the 70's.  Lots of things happened in the 70's.  Its been flown and keep in annual since, and I'm good with it.  If someone does' want to buy it because of that, their loss.

And find me a 50 year old airplane that's never had any damage history ever.  Good luck.  No doubt there are some out there, but I'll bet not too many.

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, tigers2007 said:

There are an endless amount of clean virgin Mooney’s out there with complete logs and no documented damage. 

This couldn't be further from the truth. The overall size of the fleet was finite to start with and has been shrinking every year for more than 50 years. Vintage Mooneys without any damage history are very few and far between. Mooneys with complete logs are much more common. But still not an "endless" supply.

[bill98]

7 hours ago, bradp said:

I saw a plane in annual once year that was in a similar situation. Had missing logs and “no damage”.  Problem was the plane had an extra lap and rivet line on the left wing compared to the right.  Had been flying and annual for years and nobody had noticed.  

The simultaneous N-number change with the damage and missing logs is more concerning.  Do you have the old n number?  Have the repair records from the FAA?  

Properly researched, an incident 40 years ago in a plane flying regularly is not a problem.   An improperly repaired damage can be a problem 40 years later as per my anecdote above.  

I’d bet that this owner thought he had full logs and no damage when someone pulled the wool over his eyes and he’s trying to pass the favor forward.  Because of this dishonest owner I’d stay away.  How did he respond when you brought up the damage?

Remember there’s no such thing as a good deal in aviation.  

What is the Serial Number of the AC?

[Oldguy]

This, unfortunately, sounds like a Cessna I purchased. As a newbie, I trusted my buyers broker, and I was led down the garden path. The current owners had "lost" the first airframe logbook, but had numbers 2 & 3. Turns out the plane was damaged in a windstorm and considered destroyed and de-registered, but later rebuilt, and the new owners started their log books at #2. And when did I find all this out? When I went to sell it myself without a broker. 

The plane currently has over 10k hours, flies with a Penn Yan 180 HP STC engine and still looks great, but I took a bath on selling it once its history came out. No ones fault but my own.

So my view is IF you decide to move forward with this plane, factor in the next buyers reluctance to buy it (albeit it would not start with the current owner - you  - misstating damage history and complete logs) and negotiate from that position. And if the seller is not willing to deal on the plane, there are plenty of others out there as several above have noted. 

Caveat emptor.

[skydvrboy]

11 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Missing logs and damage history don't bother me.

I totally agree.  My plane has a damage history and I wouldn't worry about a log missing from before I was born.  However, when I'm buying something expensive, I'm buying the seller as much as the item he's selling.  I don't believe for one second that the seller didn't know about the missing log when the first page states "logs lost" per the OP.  If the seller had mentioned the lost log and damage history... THEN it wouldn't have been a show stopper, but that's not what happened.

[m20kmooney]

15 hours ago, warrenehc said:

My question is what would be a % depreciation of a plane with he logs missing and significant damage. 

I’d walk away and find another plane. There are many airplanes out there without these issues. Different people have different levels of tolerance for this drama. Personally my level is “zero tolerance” for missing logs and damage history. Price reduction is not a factor. I will not consider such candidates, period.

Edited February 18, 2019 by m20kmooney

[peevee]

The damage is 45 years old. If there was a problem with the repair surely it would have been found in one of the 45 annuals since. Same for the logs. How many times has the engine been overhauled since then? Who cares. Work done in 1972 has likely been redone 10 fold since.

Edited February 18, 2019 by peevee