rethinking an E instead of a J

[KSMooniac]

Go look hard at the '77 J on controller in Indiana right now. There is a thread on it here too.

I too started looking for an upgraded E/F and ended up in my '77 J and am still happy almost 10 years later.

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[SharkBait]

8 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Go look hard at the '77 J on controller in Indiana right now. There is a thread on it here too.

I too started looking for an upgraded E/F and ended up in my '77 J and am still happy almost 10 years later.

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that J is perfect.  I wouldnt need to do anything to it assuming a perfect PPI.  Thanks!

[mooniac15u]

4 minutes ago, SharkBait said:

that J is perfect.  I wouldnt need to do anything to it assuming a perfect PPI.  Thanks!

The first question to ask would be about its experimental status.

[bonal]

12 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

In the end, after 10 years of ownership, the price of the plane minus what you sell it for will be dwarfed by other expenses such as: upgrades, hangar, avgas, insurance and maintenance. If you are wincing about an extra $40K for a J, you might want to  rethink ownership, do not, I repeat do NOT buy a plane without substantial cash reserves for unexpected maintenance.

 

That's the whole point if someone can afford a nice plane at 50 grand that would leave 40 thousand for all things that are expected with ownership I would hardly call that wincing I would call that smart planning. On the other hand spending all your reserves on a plane at the high point of budget would be foolish. I find it interesting sometimes when folks seem to think only the very well off should be allowed to own an airplane. I could have financed mine but I chose not to put myself into debt for a non essential hobby might be different if I could write if off as a business expense. I accept the financial risk and potential loss should my plane ever be unfit to fly. And if I were ever deemed unfit then I would sell for what I could get and look at it as a great experience to have had the privilege to have flown. My airplane is mine it answers to me and me alone. 

I wish the OP good luck in his search 

[gsxrpilot]

I would take a nice E over a J any day. First of all, I wouldn't spend money on the back seat passengers. They are there very rarely, usually the trips are short, and they're not paying for the plane or even the trip. So they can tuck their legs up and get over it.  The only exception for me would be if I had teenage children that I was obligated to take every where I went.

With just a little work, an E can be every bit as fast as a J, and maybe even faster. There are E's out there that have all the J/Lopresti speed mods and are probably faster than most J's. After all, they've got the same engine/prop and 10" less fuselage to haul around. Often times a nice E will have the same or greater useful load then a J.

For a budget of 90K, I'd only be looking at E's. You can probably buy the nicest one in the country for that, or less. The E was the hot rod of Mooney's until the big block's and turbo's came along.

Disclaimer: I flew a C for a few years and loved it. But every day I flew it, I wished it was an E. Then I decided I needed a turbo and now I fly a 252.

[RobertGary1]

For the price you're going to be comparing good E's against J's selling at a discount. A good J with goodies will still command nearer to $100K depending on year, etc.

 

-Robert

[bonal]

Sometimes less is more, I wanted manual gear, trim and flaps and the simplicity of a 1 barrel carburetor. We always talk about mission and for my mission the plane I found was perfect. The lesson I learned the most important feature is a thorough pre purchase inspection and a clean bill of health but since I did not over extend my budget I had the means to bring it back to good flying condition. 

[ArtVandelay]

21 minutes ago, bonal said:

That's the whole point if someone can afford a nice plane at 50 grand that would leave 40 thousand for all things that are expected with ownership I would hardly call that wincing I would call that smart planning. On the other hand spending all your reserves on a plane at the high point of budget would be foolish. I find it interesting sometimes when folks seem to think only the very well off should be allowed to own an airplane.

I never said that, but let's do the math:

$50K plane...rough estimates, on a shoestring budget:

$1000 insurance

$500 recurrent training, database,foreflight subscriptions

$1500 tiedown

$3600 avgas, assume 100 hours, 9 gal/hr, $4/gal

$3400/maintenance, this doesn't include any reserves for big ticket items and assumes you do some maintenance yourself, only an occasional moderate expense like new starter, attitude indicator, vac pump, etc 

$10K/yr, minimum...

hangar, add $3000, tank reseal $10000, engine O/H $30000, prop O/H $5000, etc

You don't have to be well off, but you have to have some extra cash...

after 10 years and assume you had a few major expenses in addition to the $10K/yr...you could have easily spent $150K, and sold the plane for $40K....you spent 15 times what you spent on the plane itself.  

Or buy $100K plane, sell it for $90K....same thing, except you spent a little more for insurance, but still the cost of the plane is dwarfed by yearly expenses.

So unless you have $15000 in disposable income every year, and say $15000 in investments, cash to use just in case....I would not buy a plane.

Disclaimer: these are rough estimates, depending on where you live, etc your actual numbers might be different, but I think these are in the ballpark.

[Andy95W]

To me, the final decider is how often you will fly 4 people for over 2 hours.  

-Often? Get the J.  

Every other scenario says get a good E with lots of mods, a good STEC autopilot, and solid avionics with a WAAS GPS.

[eman1200]

2 minutes ago, N1395W said:

To me, the final decider is how often you will fly 4 people for over 2 hours.  

-Often? Get the J.  

Every other scenario says get a good E with lots of mods, a good STEC autopilot, and solid avionics with a WAAS GPS.

my take is slightly different............how often will you have ANYONE in the backseat for ANY amount of time.  if that is 'often', then J.   I often fly 2 pax in cherokees (140/180) and if it's anyone other than a lil girl they are stretching across the back seat to try to find a way to be comfortable (not nearly as bad in an archer).  mooneys might be a little different due to the need for at least the left seat to pull their seat pretty far up.  otherwise, my limited experience flying in DrBill's E, there's usually enough room in the backseat for the dog we're flying a PnP mission for. 

personally, I know I don't NEED more than an E.  also, most E's are in my price range.  but so far I do fly 2 pax regularly, and I want my last plane first, hence I really really really want a J.  just can't afford a good one lol.  I should be getting exposure to an F in the near future.  pretty weak panel but it's in my range and at least I'll see if the extra room is all it's cracked up to be.

[SharkBait]

3 hours ago, teejayevans said:

I never said that, but let's do the math:

$50K plane...rough estimates, on a shoestring budget:

$1000 insurance

$500 recurrent training, database,foreflight subscriptions

$1500 tiedown

$3600 avgas, assume 100 hours, 9 gal/hr, $4/gal

$3400/maintenance, this doesn't include any reserves for big ticket items and assumes you do some maintenance yourself, only an occasional moderate expense like new starter, attitude indicator, vac pump, etc 

$10K/yr, minimum...

hangar, add $3000, tank reseal $10000, engine O/H $30000, prop O/H $5000, etc

You don't have to be well off, but you have to have some extra cash...

after 10 years and assume you had a few major expenses in addition to the $10K/yr...you could have easily spent $150K, and sold the plane for $40K....you spent 15 times what you spent on the plane itself.  

Or buy $100K plane, sell it for $90K....same thing, except you spent a little more for insurance, but still the cost of the plane is dwarfed by yearly expenses.

So unless you have $15000 in disposable income every year, and say $15000 in investments, cash to use just in case....I would not buy a plane.

Disclaimer: these are rough estimates, depending on where you live, etc your actual numbers might be different, but I think these are in the ballpark.

I appreciate all of this.  I am considering $90k as in the initial investment in to the airplane.  price per year is a whole different topic that is not a major concern to me, i have budgeted this on the extreme side.  Like someone said before... We don't own an airplane because its a smart place to put your money, we do it because we want an airplane.. hehehe...

I love all the info and input from everyone.  I feel like the majority of you have helped me consider an E and fix her up the way I want it.  I'm certainly excited and when I get her home ill snap some photos and keep you guys up to date.  A

again thanks guys for the input.  I love mooney space.

 

 

[cnoe]

... it flies alot which i like... any negatives on this one?
http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20E+SUPER+21&listing_id=2243731&s-type=aircraft
 

I wasn't a math major but dividing TSMO by years SMO I come up with ~43 hours per year. By my standards that's not a lot of flying.

IMO you should buy the "most complete" plane you can get for your budget including reserves. E, F, J; all great planes.

FWIW I partnered in a solid E for a year but fell in love with the J. I wouldn't sweat any perceived/anticipated speed difference 'cause it's not much if any. But there are differences. I use/need the added baggage room and appreciate the added vertical stability of the medium-body airframe. My back seat is frequently occupied by our 95# pooch so I can't put bags there. Engine cooling is superior on the J, and I personally prefer the electric gear and flaps (though many here are devout about the manual systems).

My wife, pooch, and I can stuff the baggage compartment to the ceiling, fill the stock tanks and fly 6 hours non-stop (900 nm) with an hour fuel reserve. I'm hoping to keep this plane another 25 years or so.


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[ArtVandelay]

Just remember the upside of the J is higher than a E.  From a practical financial side, if you upgraded a J, you are more likely get a larger return on your investment. The panels you see of vintage models is a labor of love.

[bonal]

I guess it all comes down to mission and budget the real good news is all the Mooney models are really great airplanes. My wife and I can carry a third full size adult male with full fuel and full bags and fly out of a 1400 ft elevation 3500 ft runway that is surrounded by hills (you east coast guys call them mountains) and get 500 fpm at 120mph on a 100 degree day with180 hp and cover 600 statute miles in under 4 hours with an hours reserve. And that's with the lowest rung of the Mooney ladder

[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, eman1200 said:

 my limited experience flying in DrBill's E, there's usually enough room in the backseat for the dog we're flying a PnP mission for. 

 

Some folks are getting tired of these pics of my E.... who you calling a dog? 

[RobertGary1]

Is a Mooney like a sport bike? Seems to come with a girl on the back?:)

-Robert

[eman1200]

10 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Some folks are getting tired of these pics of my E.... who you calling a dog? 

clearly photoshopped!

 

[ArtVandelay]

I flying by myself, my last trip out to California, I had the luggage area mostly full and the backseat as well, I don't know how y'all fit more than 2 on cross country trips. I had golf clubs, 2 duffle bags, backpack, pilot bag, a carry on suitcase, tool bag, plane cover, O2 tank. 

[Bob_Belville]

1 minute ago, teejayevans said:

I flying by myself, my last trip out to California, I had the luggage area mostly full and the backseat as well, I don't know how y'all fit more than 2 on cross country trips. I had golf clubs, 2 duffle bags, backpack, pilot bag, a carry on suitcase, tool bag, plane cover, O2 tank. 

You need a Greyhound, a Winnebago, or a Gooney bird.

 

[KLRDMD]

10 hours ago, DonMuncy said:

I think the cost to change planes is just too high, when you factor in all the changes you make to your original purchase, the cost to sell it and the cost to buy the next one.

It doesn't have to be that way at all. I've bought and sold 14 airplanes over the last 15 years and only lost money on one of them. I'm up a "net" of about $75k in the process. You absolutely, 100% have to buy any airplane right. If you do, you have options; keep it and upgrade it or sell it and move on to something else. It doesn't have to be an expensive proposition to sell one airplane and buy another.

[bonal]

34 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

I flying by myself, my last trip out to California, I had the luggage area mostly full and the backseat as well, I don't know how y'all fit more than 2 on cross country trips. I had golf clubs, 2 duffle bags, backpack, pilot bag, a carry on suitcase, tool bag, plane cover, O2 tank. 

Soft bags no O2 and no golf clubs easy peazey 

[larryb]

A J is possibly 20 years younger than an E. That is a lot more time for it to have sat outside and developed corrosion or some other problem. Lots of other old and deteriorated little parts. You may not save as much as you think.

[gsxrpilot]

Jay,

How tall are you? This will tell how much leg room is in the back seat. The difference between the E and the J is 10" split between the backseat and luggage area.

Both the E and J will carry the same load.

Any concerns about an old airframe, corrosion, etc is handled by a proper pre-buy inspection. You can buy a J lemon just as easily as you can buy an E lemon.

Which is the better investment is probably up for debate. The newer the airplane the larger the market, but also the more room for depreciation. The older the airplane the more likely all the depreciation is already been paid out. Example, I bought, flew 400 hours and sold a 1964 C for $2K more than I bought it.

An E will all the speed mods and a two blade prop will keep up with any J out there.

You said $90K is the max budget, no more. That will buy more E than it will J. Then the question is... is a low end J more desirable than a high end E? 

Not for me, I'm the owner and therefore don't ever ride in the back seat ;-)

[cnoe]

A J is possibly 20 years younger than an E. That is a lot more time for it to have sat outside and developed corrosion or some other problem. Lots of other old and deteriorated little parts. You may not save as much as you think.

My "J" was originally purchased in only their 2nd year of production (1978). Still it's 14 years newer than the "E" I partnered in. Over its 38 year life it flew an average of 79 hours per year. Now at ~3,000 TTAF I feel confident that the structure remains sound.

I'm not saying there aren't some incredible "vintage" planes but to me the J just feels more modern. Simple emotion likely has something to do with that.


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[Bug Smasher]

I'm 6'3' and the J was a no-brainer. I aimed high and got the IFR panel I wanted and everything else, new interior, good paint, top prop, young motor. No regrets!!! Whether it is and C, D, E, F, G or J, get the best airplane you can afford. They are all Mooneys and they all rock. Don't buy a "bargain" that needs upgrades. Pay a little more up front. Just my two cents.