Why is an annual so expensive (NorCal)?

[frcabot]

Seriously, wth?

 

LASAR charges $3K base price for an annual, Top Gun in Stockton charges $2300. This is assuming there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the plane, i.e. inspection only, no repairs whatsoever.

 

I have friends with Cessna 172s/182s who pay under $1K for an annual all-in. What gives?

 

Is there somewhere within 500nm of the San Francisco Bay Area that charges a reasonable price for an annual?

[Andy95W]

It falls into the "you get what you pay for" category. If you want, or need, Mooney experts, you'll have to pay for LASAR or Top Gun. Your local A&P/IA will do an Annual inspection for considerably less, but you won't get Mooney specific expertise, just a basic annual for airworthiness.

Really good Mooney Service Centers (MSCs) will catch wear and tear that leads to expensive repairs before it gets to that point. They know Mooneys and trouble areas for each type, and they know how to fix them properly.

If you are handy with tools, and can find a mechanic that is willing to work with you, try an owner assisted annual. You'll come away from the experience a better pilot and Mooney owner from a more thorough understanding of your airplane. I'd still recommend taking it to LASAR or Top Gun every second or third Annual, however.

[Bob_Belville]

Seriously, wth?

 

LASAR charges $3K base price for an annual, Top Gun in Stockton charges $2300. This is assuming there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the plane, i.e. inspection only, no repairs whatsoever.

 

I have friends with Cessna 172s/182s who pay under $1K for an annual all-in. What gives?

 

Is there somewhere within 500nm of the San Francisco Bay Area that charges a reasonable price for an annual?

For comparison, my shop, in a much lower cost part of the country, get $1200 for a "late 172"/182 and $1440 for a M20J. Labor only. flat hours are 20 for the 182 and 24 for the Mooney.

 

(My M20E with manual gear is $1320, 22 hours.)  

 

http://www.aglaviation.com/pricing-rates

[frcabot]

It falls into the "you get what you pay for" category. If you want, or need, Mooney experts, you'll have to pay for LASAR or Top Gun. Your local A&P/IA will do an Annual inspection for considerably less, but you won't get Mooney specific expertise, just a basic annual for airworthiness.

Really good Mooney Service Centers (MSCs) will catch wear and tear that leads to expensive repairs before it gets to that point. They know Mooneys and trouble areas for each type, and they know how to fix them properly.

If you are handy with tools, and can find a mechanic that is willing to work with you, try an owner assisted annual. You'll come away from the experience a better pilot and Mooney owner from a more thorough understanding of your airplane. I'd still recommend taking it to LASAR or Top Gun every second or third Annual, however.

I wouldn't be so sure. My local A&P is a place called Sundance -- they charged me OVER $1000 to replace a tire. I kid you not. Run, do not walk, from that place.

[ShermAv8tor]

For whatever shop it's about the labor rate…the Mooney I'm told takes about 24 man hours to complete, which is mostly gaining access!! I will experience my first one end of this month so we'll see. I didn't think there was that big of a diff between TG & LASAR in pricing? Did you personally talk to Kyle at LASAR & inquire about an owner assist to try to save some $$? Tough part is it's far away from Bay Area to be driving every morning/night. Wow 1K for a tire change??? That is crazy…just a tire and tube? Painful!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Danb]

I think it's not merely the shop rate, there are a lot of a&ps who don't know Mooney specific items and learn on our airplanes, while a knowledgeable mechanic may take 5 hours on something an experienced Mooney tech. May take 2-3 hours who knows, also which one has the skill,education,experience know how to do the work properly. There are a lot of non MSC tech. Out there that are very good, so I assume it's merely finding them. Those of you who have the skill to help with the annual are also much more informed and better off. There have been numerous threads re. This subject that can be easily researched..also it seems the variance in costs of maintenance is so extreme you'd wish there was a cost manual that was in use and available to us.

[Jerry 5TJ]

You can get a $550 Mooney annual in the Bay Area from an IA I know there.   To that base you have to add 30 to 50 hours of your own time, and a least 1 to 4 AMUs in parts to complete a  routine annual on a "C" model.  

 

If you pay urban California shop rates for that time, well, that's a $5K to $8K annual.   Maybe lots more if you find something interesting once you have removed all 8,973 screws and peered under all the access panels. 

[M20F-1968]

To that base you have to add 30 to 50 hours of your own time, and a least 1 to 4 AMUs in parts to complete a  routine annual on a "C" model.  

 

I agree with the 30 - 50 hours of your own time, but how do you get 1 to 4 AMU's for parts given that an annual is an "inspection" and there may be routine parts needed to be replaced, but certainly to 1 - 4 AMU's.

Anything above the annual inspection is in the realm of repairs.

 

John Breda

[Shadrach]

Look at it in time spent, not cost. I'm not sure what LASAR charges as a shop rate. In my neck of the woods, A&Ps are less than auto mechanics $85 vs $95-$100.

My last annual cost me $500 of credentialed labor, 2 days of my time and about $450 in parts. Keep in mind that I have my own MX manuals, jacks, rigging tools and a full allotment of tools, lubes, filters. My IA shows up to jacked up aircraft with the inspection panels removed. He brings a mirror and a flashlight... With my time off, I'm not reallly saving money on the inspection, but I want to be there to see and do everything I can.

[Bob_Belville]

Look at it in time spent, not cost. I'm not sure what LASAR charges as a shop rate. In my neck of the woods, A&Ps are less than auto mechanics $85 vs $95-$100.

My last annual cost me $500 of credentialed labor, 2 days of my time and about $450 in parts. Keep in mind that I have my own MX manuals, jacks, rigging tools and a full allotment of tools, lubes, filters. My IA shows up to jacked up aircraft with the inspection panels removed. He brings a mirror and a flashlight... With my time off, I'm not saving much money on the inspection, but I want to be there to see and do everything I can.

I do the same. My IA charges me his flat rate (22 hours) and then gives me credit for my hours @ his shop rate. My last annual was $536 net, plus my time, my oil, filter, lubes, etc. Over the years I've accumulated tools, lubricants etc. The A&P has the gear load tool.

[peevee]

the last MSC that touched our plane charged 15k for an annual, that wasn't for anything major.

half the things they touched aren't fixed still.

[aerohawk]

When mechanics have to spend 10k to 20k a year on ATP maintenance manual subscription service you will see why there cost are so high. It cost 5k just for the Cessna 100 series of manuals. Let's not even get into how much liability insurance cost. Lots of money may change hands but very little ends up as profit for the mechanic. Anyone doing a annual for 1200 is skipping stuff or donating there time for free. I do know of a few older mechanics that do the annuals that cheap but they do everything in accordance with there years of experience and not the maintenance manual. Lots of holes in safety when torque settings are set by "good enough" instead of by the book

[Bob - S50]

I think the base rate for the MSC at Troutdale (TTD) near Portland Oregon is about $2200 or so.  Then add on any repairs they have to do.  Our last annual was about $3200.  Seems to me Top Gun is pretty much in line with that.

 

Bob

[Bob_Belville]

I think the base rate for the MSC at Troutdale (TTD) near Portland Oregon is about $2200 or so.  Then add on any repairs they have to do.  Our last annual was about $3200.  Seems to me Top Gun is pretty much in line with that.

 

Bob

That sounds in line in a market with a higher hourly rate than our rural NC airport. 22 hours or 24 for electric gear includes: 

 

My man's stand list for all makes and models include: (We use the Mooney 100 hours check list when doing my plane.)

1)      AD research

2)      Clean, gap, test, and rotate spark plugs

3)      Pre and post run up for systems check

4)      Compression test

5)      Servicing battery

6)      Oil and filter change **

7)      Air filter change **

8)      Lubrication wend servicing of pulleys, hinges, and bell cranks

9)      Cleaning, inspection and repacking of wheel bearings

10)   Landing gear extension/retraction test if required

11)   Mag to engine timing

12)   Removal and installation of inspection panels and interior as necessary for inspection

13)   ELT test and inspection per FAR 91.207 **

14)   Inspection of aircraft

**LABOR ONLY 

[1964-M20E]

I have done 5 owner assisted annuals so far on my Mooney.  24 hours of shop time to do an annual on a Mooney is not that far out the box.  I will spend the better part of a day opening up the plane for the annual removing inspection covers belly pans, seats, cowling etc. 8 hours of inspection, cleaning, changing filters, lubricating, applying corrosion X etc. a few hours on the log books and 8 hours to reassemble if you are quick.

 

Most mechanics will charge several hundred dollars more for the first annual they do on a plane since it is new to them and they have more research to do.

 

My actual annual cost in $ has been low because of my involvement but I generally spend about 20 to 30 hours of my time as well so if I add that time in to the mix the annuals are quiet expensive.  However, I do like to be involved because that lets me know what was done how it was done and how it was put back together.

[Houman]

I just did the same thing, 2 full days (12h each ) of owner assisted annual. I did all of the following with my mechanic's supervision :

 

AD, SB and SI search...

Removal and install all the access panels under the wing and belly.

Removal of spark plugs ( he did the cleaning, gaping and reinstall with a electronic torque wrench ).

Lubricating all the lubrication points for gear and all.

Help him jack the plane.

Cleaning and lubricating the wheel barrels with his tools.

testing gear with him...

ELT cert was given to local shop...

 

Basically I did all the jobs that didn't require that much knowledge and he showed me how to do those jobs, in a monkey see monkey do kind of way, we saved a lot of times, hell there are so many panels and lubrication points in the Mooney.

 

My annual and all the parts and everything cost me about 1500$ including the labor, parts, ELT cert, and calibrating my Airspeed safety switch, I was very happy with that, plus added benefits of seeing every part and system in the plane that I put my life in.

 

We did it a Friday and Saturday, so I only lost 1 day of work, not a big deal...

[N33GG]

Seriously, wth?

 

LASAR charges $3K base price for an annual, Top Gun in Stockton charges $2300. This is assuming there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the plane, i.e. inspection only, no repairs whatsoever.

 

I have friends with Cessna 172s/182s who pay under $1K for an annual all-in. What gives?

 

Is there somewhere within 500nm of the San Francisco Bay Area that charges a reasonable price for an annual?

In all fairness, it is really not fair to compare a Mooney to a Cessna 172.  Fixed gear vs. retract and fixed prop vs. constant speed alone make a significant difference in maintenance and inspections required at annual.  Also, the 172 type aircraft or Piper Cherokees for example, are much easier to access everything for inspection etc.

 

Just not a fair comparison... just for the record.

[peevee]

our last one was 120 hours, hah. But they found some issues. Nothing major, but a hundred bucks here, 10 hours there all adds up.

I'm not bitter at all.

[Mooneymite]

I have done 5 owner assisted annuals so far on my Mooney.  24 hours of shop time to do an annual on a Mooney is not that far out the box.

 

I totally agree with this!  I've done owner assisted annuals for about 15 years and if you do all the items on the checklist, I'm not sure how you get done in 24 hours!

 

To a large degree, I hold Mooney engineers responsible for making the plane "inspection unfriendly".  Removing the belly skins, each of the inspection panels and getting to the lower engine screens is ridiculously time consuming.  A power drill helps, and there are various "tricks" that I've learned over the years, but Mooney's are just time consuming to inspect.

 

When I did my first owner assisted annual it was obvious that many items on the annual inspection hadn't been done recently....or, at all, ever.  Perhaps that's how an annual can be done in less than 24 hours.

[donkaye]

The Bravo requires 31 hours of inspection time if done properly by a Mooney knowledgeable mechanic.  Unless a whole shop is put on the airplane, it can't be done in a couple of days.  I've looked at the estimated repair times of all found items, and I can't imagine a mechanic unfamiliar with Mooneys would have found some of the items or been able to fix the items in the time estimated.

 

I'll take a Mooney specify shop, thank you.

[jetdriven]

When mechanics have to spend 10k to 20k a year on ATP maintenance manual subscription service you will see why there cost are so high. It cost 5k just for the Cessna 100 series of manuals. Let's not even get into how much liability insurance cost. Lots of money may change hands but very little ends up as profit for the mechanic. Anyone doing a annual for 1200 is skipping stuff or donating there time for free. I do know of a few older mechanics that do the annuals that cheap but they do everything in accordance with there years of experience and not the maintenance manual. Lots of holes in safety when torque settings are set by "good enough" instead of by the book

How much are the Mooney and Lycoming manual subscriptions? That's what is relevant here.

[bonal]

I just wish the year wouldn't pass so damn fast

[aerohawk]

How much are the Mooney and Lycoming manual subscriptions? That's what is relevant here.

2800 first time and 800 or so to renew I think. That covers all makes and models of mooneys I believe. Unless you have the privilege of only working on mooneys your going to be buying more then just one manufacturer.

[peevee]

I just wish the year wouldn't pass so damn fast

if they didn't, maybe I'd get more hours in.

[frcabot]

the last MSC that touched our plane charged 15k for an annual, that wasn't for anything major.

half the things they touched aren't fixed still.

I had a similar experience, I think mine was 8K and they made some issues worse (like the egt and cht temps weren't properly grounded).