Possible ads-b extension

[RobertGary1]

I’ve been on the waiting list to do my panel since last year and it’s looking I’ll get in next January.  

My shop works closely with the faa because they were one of the first test shops to install ads-b. They got a survey call from the faa asking ads-b status and they mentioned shops just aren’t close to being able to keep up.

also the manufacture are way behind ie Garmin is back ordered  

They also mentioned that airlines (except for United) are also not close. SouthWest is only about 10% compliant. So the faa said they may do some type of long term permit for those who can show they are scheduled. Maybe the shop would have to seek it stating they’re on the list but delayed due to equipment backorder or just shop backlog. 

Fingers crossed because the math shows the fleet is nowhere near ready and the capacity to manufacture and install isn’t there  

-Robert 

[Mooneymite]

I think there are also issues on the ATC side.  Even if all the aircraft are ADS-B on 1-1-20, I don't think the controllers will be all trained/certified.

Maybe some of the ATC guys on here can comment?

[MIm20c]

Will the $1k rebate be attached to the long term permit?

[chriscalandro]

The problem with shops being backed up is because pilots are waiting until the last minute.  I don't see any reason why it should be extended because people are procrastinating and not getting it done.  What do you think extending it is going to do?

After having ADSB for some time now i believe it is absolutely silly not to have it.  Even better if you have in.  The amount of information gathered is literally a life saver.

[RobertGary1]

6 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

The problem with shops being backed up is because pilots are waiting until the last minute.  I don't see any reason why it should be extended because people are procrastinating and not getting it done.  What do you think extending it is going to do?

Getting on the schedule 2 years in advance is procrastinating?  We just don’t have the excess capacity of installers

Good shops have been booked up with this work for the last 5 years. The excess capacity the faa assumes to do this work didn’t exist.  Also the FAA underestimated how many pilots would do full panels while in the shop  

-Robert 

[stevesm20b]

A number of the ADSB out avionics has only come out in the last year and one is still pending. So it makes it hard to schedule to have something installed when it wasn't available.

[ChrisV]

59 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

The problem with shops being backed up is because pilots are waiting until the last minute.  I don't see any reason why it should be extended because people are procrastinating and not getting it done.  What do you think extending it is going to do?

Agree with this.

I emailed Pacific Coast in May, scheduled for the end of July.  They were able to move me up to beginning of July.  Less than 2 months on the wait list.  Install took 3 days for my G345.

[RogueOne]

Extension is BS. Excuses....Excuses...

[RobertGary1]

15 minutes ago, RogueOne said:

Extension is BS. Excuses....Excuses...

You think Garmin is sandbagging the shops? They could increase production?

-Rober

[RobertGary1]

21 minutes ago, ChrisV said:

Agree with this.

I emailed Pacific Coast in May, scheduled for the end of July.  They were able to move me up to beginning of July.  Less than 2 months on the wait list.  Install took 3 days for my G345.

Maybe regional. Like it said I’ve been on the list for 8 months and hope to get in in January. 

-Robert

[laytonl]

Maybe it is regional.  My neighbor said he only had to wait about two weeks to get his installed.  He is scheduled for next week (Atlanta area.). Lee

[Skates97]

I bought a GTX 335 with the harness already built. Talked with my AP/IA who agreed to let me install myself, (good working relationship with him) wrote up the 337 with a few wording changes from my AP/IA, and he signed everything off. I then scheduled a transponder check with a local guy who came to my hangar, did the test and gave me a log book sticker. 

It's not impossible to meet the mandate. 

[chriscalandro]

I did mine as an after thought while I had other things apart. Getting a unit was no big deal. 

 

Last year when in for maint maint ships were asking if I wanted to do it while I was there, some same day, some within a week. The argument shops were backed up is bs and I don’t accept that argument even a little bit. 

 

Adsb isn’t new. Products have been around for years. New products come out all the time. It’s not the governments problem you waited for whatever the new cheapest option is. Again, not a solid argument. 

 

If if you don’t have it done in time it’s because you and everyone else didn’t get it done in time. And that’s your fault. 

Edited September 7, 2019 by chriscalandro

[Greg Ellis]

It might be regional...who knows.  I did mine last year with a shop on my field.  Got right in. The Garmin G5 and the GTX 345 were back ordered though and this was last year.  I imagine it has just gotten worse as the deadline approaches.  With that being said, I am not sure I would have stayed on a waiting list that long.  I think I would have shopped elsewhere.  But good luck and I hope you get it done soon to not be grounded for too long.

This is one thing the FAA gave a very long time for compliance.  I understand that most were waiting for options to come out.  Extending the deadline may just extend the procrastination.

[RobertGary1]

46 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

I bought a GTX 335 with the harness already built. Talked with my AP/IA who agreed to let me install myself, (good working relationship with him) wrote up the 337 with a few wording changes from my AP/IA, and he signed everything off. I then scheduled a transponder check with a local guy who came to my hangar, did the test and gave me a log book sticker. 

It's not impossible to meet the mandate. 

How did you get the waas signal, did you install the antenna too?

[kortopates]

Another reason why an extension is unlikely is that the FAA already has plans for a website to allow people to request a flight exemption, one flight at a time, along the guidelines stated in 91.225. They're basically automating request for flight exemptions but warned it can't be used repeatedly and indefinitely.

The FAA announcement is located here: https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2019/04/01/2019-06184/statement-of-policy-for-authorizations-to-operators-of-aircraft-that-are-not-equipped-with-automatic

There is a thread on it here in MS : 

 

Edited September 7, 2019 by kortopates

[Hank]

3 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

My shop works closely with the faa because they were one of the first test shops to install ads-b. They got a survey call from the faa asking ads-b status and they mentioned shops just aren’t close to being able to keep up. . .  

They also mentioned that airlines (except for United) are also not close. SouthWest is only about 10% compliant. So the faa said they may do some type of long term permit for those who can show they are scheduled.

FAA has been saying for years "no ADS-B extension." Except as noted above for the airlines, because they operate for profit and pass on to shareholders while I operate from what's left over in my paycheck . . . .

[Hank]

1 minute ago, kortopates said:

Another reason why an extension is unlikely is that the FAA already has plans for a website to allow people to request a flight exemption, one flight at a time, along the guidelines stated in 91.225. They're basically automating request for flight exemptions but warned it can't be used repeatedly and indefinitely.

The FAA announcement is located here: https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2019/04/01/2019-06184/statement-of-policy-for-authorizations-to-operators-of-aircraft-that-are-not-equipped-with-automatic

 

ATL has never let me into the Bravo, at least for the five years I've been living back in the area with my Mooney. This was yesterday's flight "across" Atlanta . . . . Typical!

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

How did you get the waas signal, did you install the antenna too?

Yes I did. The kit came with a GA35 antenna which I needed because I did not have a WAAS source for my plane. The GA35 went in where the old Loran antenna came out. I did have to have my AP/IA put a doubler in because the old Loran antenna was installed without one. I was going to put the GA35 in myself but the AP offered to do that while he was putting in the doubler.

I also had to make new RG 400 cables to run from the GA35 to the transponder and also from the transponder to the transponder antenna. There are some great videos online on how to make the cables and I think I went through 3-4 connectors "practicing" but it was fun to learn how to do it.

The installation was actually very easy and straight forward. Moving things up/down in the stack to make room for it took more time then the rest of the install put together. I put in a new breaker for it but it replaced the breaker for the old transponder so no new hole was needed for it.

https://intothesky.us/2019/05/25/gtx335-installed-2020-compliant-and-preventative-maintenance/

[mike_elliott]

4 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Getting on the schedule 2 years in advance is procrastinating?  We just don’t have the excess capacity of installers

Good shops have been booked up with this work for the last 5 years. The excess capacity the faa assumes to do this work didn’t exist.  Also the FAA underestimated how many pilots would do full panels while in the shop  

-Robert 

A year and a half ago, getting scheduled was relatively easy, but perhaps not in LA then. Now, yea, its tough, because so many wanted the prices to drop, new stuff to show up, etc.

Heck, i put in a Lynx 9000+ relatively soon after it was announced. yes it was 5K (or maybe 6K, I really cant remember, but flew with it from 2014 until I sold the Bravo. It was the only device that could provide ADS-B in and out, display on the Aspen, IPad, Garmin, have aural call outs and display on itself. It took less than 2 weeks from order until flying with it back then, and I had the use of the technology for many years. 

No regrets at all to have on board wx and traffic without a sub for 5 years, and to be able to list the plane as "2020 compliant" with a quality piece of gear like the L3 Lynx.

[jaylw314]

4 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Getting on the schedule 2 years in advance is procrastinating?  We just don’t have the excess capacity of installers

Good shops have been booked up with this work for the last 5 years. The excess capacity the faa assumes to do this work didn’t exist.  Also the FAA underestimated how many pilots would do full panels while in the shop  

-Robert 

I scheduled my install two years ago and it was a 3 month wait.  My install was clearly the first ones that they had done, and they were one of the biggest avionics shops in the region.  It's hard to imagine there was a crush of owners clamoring to get their ADS-B installs done at that time.

So, no, I don't agree that shops have been booked up for the last 5 years.

[steingar]

The FAA will give an extension they said. The prices will come down they said. They won’t need it they said. They said all sorts of stuff.

I went through hell and high water to get this done, and no rebate! I’ve got no sympathy at all for anyone who hasn’t done this. The writing has been on the wall for years.

 

[M20F-1968]

I do not want to hijack the thread, but is anyone wants to go the extended squitter route for ADS-B compliance, I will be replacing my GTX 330ES with a GTX345.  The GTX 330ES provides ADS-b out and can make you compliant.  My cell is (617) 877-0025 and e-mail  john.breda@gmail.com

John Breda

[cliffy]

If you're stuck and really need it quick, one might go to uAvionix and get a TailBeacon. Its a 10 min install by any A&P and the set up is on your phone. When you get in for the good set up you really want next year I'm sure there are folks that would buy the old unit in a NY second for a small discount. There are ways if you really need ADSB in a hurry. 

Now the debate over "is it worth it or not" is another matter. Everyone's forgotten that the GAO even said ADSB wasn't worth it for what the little guy gets in return for the investment.  In fact IIRC all the "IN" stuff on weather and the like was an add on to the original plan so as to make the investment worth something to the little guys- To get them to comply to funding the FAAs NextGen system (designed for the BIG guys). 

Remember this was a "top down" plan for the airlines to improve heavy traffic handling at the major airports and not really planned for the little guy. 

Just one thought- I've postulated this many times and no one has ever been able to discount it-

Why do we have the WAAS requirement for airborne location down to what? maybe 15 foot EPEs? Non-WAAS EPEs would be more than precise for ADSB. Has anyone noticed that all vehicle traffic at the major airports is required to have ADSB on each vehicle? This is to allow the tower a chance to see vehicles entering a taxiway or other movement area and see their location to a very accurate degree. Its my opinion that this is where the WAAS requirement came form and not a need for it in flight.

I willing to learn if anyone has a differing position. 

Secondly, while its nice to watch the fish finder, it will go the way TCAS did when it first came out. Everyone watched the screen until it became apparent that the airplanes shown on the tiny screen were a long way away from "me". We then didn't seem to care too much about the screen until it changes color to red. Will it help with a mid-air? Could quite possibly at some point and maybe one avoidance is enough to justify the entire cost of the system. Would we avoid the same issue if we looked out the window more instead of at iPads and TV screens and ADSB displays? Maybe also. How much diversion of attention from outside the windows does one have when there are 3? 4? maybe 5 different screens inside the cockpit?

The old paper charts and six-pack panels were boring but they did make you look out the windows more :-) 

[RobertGary1]

I’ve thought about getting uAvionics as a temp solution until Garmin and the shops catch up. I fly in the Bay Area so ads-b is necessary. Not sure how easy it would be to transfer one of those units once it’s been assigned and if there is an stc if they allow reassignment. 

-Robert