I need fuel bladders ??? Help !!!!

[flyhigh603]

Hello Gentlemen !

                                                                   I have a serious problem.My new to me 1966 Mooney M20C is in the middle of its first annual and i got the call i didn't expect from my Mech . Especially since i had a thorough Pre buy from a so called MSC at Clearwater airport, can't believe they missed this !!!  Aside from the errant things that were missed from previous annuals my Mech discovered that my tanks were sealed with a "Red " sealer that was deemed illegal some time ago. First indication was after 3 months of owning the plane i discovered a small weep from left tank, then she was hard to start last few flights. He showed me where in the last 10 years there was some newer sealant applied but the old red sealant was never stripped out. I noticed my bird was very hard to start last 3 flights because old sealant was clogging up my fuel system ( which i didn't know was going on ). It seems the sealant has deteriorated , flaked off in tiny , tiny, pieces and is clogging up my carb, fuel strainers, and and fuel lines. He said that both tanks were basically illegal for flight so here is the kick in the nads. He won't sign off for a ferry permit to have it flown somewhere to have the tank work done and he absolutely will not ever strip and reseal Mooney tanks ever again. So he said my only option is to get fuel bladders. I trust him completely and he is the most respected Master A&P / IA in the Northeast US. So does anyone out there in Mooney world have recent exp finding and having bladders installed ?? Where do i find them the cheapest ? And can i find used bladders that are airworthy. I`m just an average blue collar joe that is trying to do this safely and the cheapest was possible. I looked up O&N but apparently they went out of business. Any good advice guys ??? 

[LANCECASPER]

When you sump the tanks before every flight are you noticing the pieces of sealant?

If he's as stubborn as he sounds, sorry to say it, but despite him being the "most respected Master A&P / IA in the Northeast", it sounds like you've got the wrong guy. It sounds like he is holding the airplane hostage. Maybe I'm a little sensitive on this one since I had that happen once. Where are you located?

Is it out of annual right now? If not I'd have him button it up and pay him for the work he's done and figure out how to safely get it to another place. If it is out of annual right now I'd still pay him for what he's done but politely tell him that you'd like a second opinion, with the option of coming back to him if need be. Is there anyone else on the field that can look at it? Can you tie it down on the field and is there another A&P/IA that would be willing to come to the airplane to have a look?

Bladders are an option but being told that you have no other options is what makes this a bad deal.

[takair]

O&N sold the business.  The new company is setting up PMA to manufacture them.  There is a link from the O&N web site.  There is also a thread about the situation here in Mooneyspace.  They are the only game in town and I don't think you will find them used AND with paperwork.  

[N6758N]

You might try calling up some Mooney Service Centers and seeing if they have any used sets around. I got mine from Airmods in NJ.

[Bob_Belville]

From the O&N website - not OOB.

"Under the direction of Matt Griggs, Chris Murley and Jeff Ball the currently established repair station facility Griggs Aircraft Refinishing has purchased the Supplement Type Certificates from O & N.  They will be continuing to produce the Silver Eagle 210 Conversions, the auxiliary fuel tanks, and Mooney bladder kits. They can be reached at (570) 836-5757 or at www.griggsaircraft.com

Some of us have had a hard time getting Griggs to respond. PM "Marauder" if you can't get through to them. Chris has talked to them recently. There's a thread here somewhere...

[N601RX]

From your original post it seems like you are saying the red sealent is likely the original sealant from Mooney. If this is the case or if the sealant was legal when applied the  the only way it can be deemed illegal is by the FAA issuing AD against it. Does this ad exist?

Edited January 21, 2017 by N601RX

[mike_elliott]

2 hours ago, flyhigh603 said:

Especially since i had a thorough Pre buy from a so called MSC at Clearwater airport

Humm....no MSC at KCLW that I know of. That said, Jeff Bender of Bender Aviation is Mooney knowledgeable and fair, 2 of his mechanics own Mooneys. Is that who you are referring to as a Mooney Service Center in Clearwater?

[rbridges]

but would it be safe to fly if you had a ferry permit? I read a story where a guy's fuel supply got clogged by an old shop towel that was left in the tank.  Apples and Oranges, but I wouldn't like the idea of knowing something could clog my fuel line in flight.  I guess it depends on the severity, etc.  

[flyhigh603]

Yes last 25 hrs or so I'd find a little sediment when sumped but figured that was normal because she wasn't flown much before I got her. The Mech I'm using is old school with more exp working on anything that flies than any person I've ever met in aviation. And I trust him completely. 

He actually showed me the sediment in the fuel screens and what was clogging the primer jet, which is why it was hard to start last 3-4 flights. He also said the last so called sealer job ,they put the sealer over the red sealant which is supposed to be stripped out. The red sealant in both tanks is what is disintegrating and clogging fuel lines which is why he thinks it's unsafe to fly even with a ferry permit , so he won't sign off on a ferry permit. He said he is way to old to be breathing and dealing with the stripping experience , and I don't blame him. I guess I'm surprised that this wasn't caught with the last few annuals or at the pre purchase I had done. But at this point looks like I gotta get bladders. Any one know a ballpark price for a set of new vs a set of used  ?? Are they a huge pain in the ass to instal ?      And thank you guys for all your input ! 

[Wakeup]

Mine looked like this before stripping and sealing.  Scary!!!

[rbridges]

maybe call Paul Beck at Weep no More, and see if he has any advice.  

[carusoam]

Fh603,

It would really help if you update your avatar with model and year information... part of the country you are in... that kind of thing.

It minimizes the odd responses you might receive.

It is not normal to have odd materials fall out of your fuel drain. Decaying sealant and rust particles are typical of 60s Mooney's that have not been updated.

Collect the stuff that is in the bottom of the fuel separator. If it is rust particles, they have already passed through two filters before heading to the engine. Rust particles can be tiny and granular.  They have a tendency to assemble themselves into a blockade like tiny bricks.

A subtle hint that you may have challenges... sample drains don't stop easily, and water keeps showing up when sampling.

Some sealants fail and the results look similar to worms floating in the tank.  You can search MS for this to get more detail.

Getting a ferry permit would only make sense if the problem has been removed from the system...  think something like a turtlepack fuel system connected to the fuel line.

Help us help you, update your avatar.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited January 21, 2017 by carusoam

[flyer7324]

The Griggs folks are excellent. They can do it all. Paint avionics major repairs and yes bladder installs. Several of the employees, Mike in particular worked for O and N for years and have done 100's of these installs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[flyer7324]

I've found Griggs to be very responsive. Don't know why some folks are having issues.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ArtVandelay]

If you want to save money, offer to do the work yourself with the AP supervision, there is a thread about somebody doing just that.

[flyhigh603]

I thought about doing it myself but wouldn't bladders that are taken care of last longer than a sealant job ? 

[jetdriven]

Find a different mechanic to sign the ferry permit and take it to the shop of your choice for repairs. 

One owner here had a mechanic try to steer him to a certain engine shop and when he refused, he had to wheel the plane outside with no engine on it.  But he did find another mechanic and he had the engine he wanted  put on it. 

Edited January 21, 2017 by jetdriven

[ArtVandelay]

I thought about doing it myself but wouldn't bladders that are taken care of last longer than a sealant job ? 

A good sealed job should last 30 years, search past threads on pros and cons, but yes the bladders should last longer.

[gsxrpilot]

And a sealed job by a reputable shop (Weep-no-more, or Houston Tank Specialists) will come with a warrantee and will last. I'd even take 20 years sealed over the loss of  volume and useful load as the result of installing bladders. But then I fly a K which is UL challenged already.

[Alan Fox]

7 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

When you sump the tanks before every flight are you noticing the pieces of sealant?

If he's as stubborn as he sounds, sorry to say it, but despite him being the "most respected Master A&P / IA in the Northeast", it sounds like you've got the wrong guy. It sounds like he is holding the airplane hostage. Maybe I'm a little sensitive on this one since I had that happen once. Where are you located?

Is it out of annual right now? If not I'd have him button it up and pay him for the work he's done and figure out how to safely get it to another place. If it is out of annual right now I'd still pay him for what he's done but politely tell him that you'd like a second opinion, with the option of coming back to him if need be. Is there anyone else on the field that can look at it? Can you tie it down on the field and is there another A&P/IA that would be willing to come to the airplane to have a look?

Bladders are an option but being told that you have no other options is what makes this a bad deal.

Sorry Lance , but I have to disagree , the sealant is breaking down , and clogging the fuel screens , no way I would sign off a ferry permit......

[nels]

What about a larger temporary filter out of each tank as method of containing debris prior to the factory system. Should be ok for short flight. Also maybe an auxilary tank that goes behind the seat and fly on that fuel. Just thinking out loud. 

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, Alan Fox said:

Sorry Lance , but I have to disagree , the sealant is breaking down , and clogging the fuel screens , no way I would sign off a ferry permit......

I don't remember saying you would . . lol

I mentioned having someone explore the possibility of safely getting it to another place, seeing if there's another shop on the field or having a mechanic come to the airplane. If a second opinion comes back the same it's time to start figuring out what to do.

[flyhigh603]

My Mech said that a brand new carb was installed last annual and with only 40 run on her he's never in 57 yrs seen finger screens clog up like that. He said its surprising I didn't make the news if you know what I mean. I fly over some pretty remote mountain regions up here in the northeast and if I went down good chance I'd never be found so if my Mech said it's crazy to fly her I'm not going. Kinda a serious bummer cause she ran like a top and I've only had her 7 months

 

[gsxrpilot]

33 minutes ago, flyhigh603 said:

My Mech said that a brand new carb was installed last annual and with only 40 run on her he's never in 57 yrs 

If he's been at it for 57 years... the faculties might not be what they once were... maybe a second opinion would be in order? 

**tongue planted firmly in cheek

[Alan Fox]

42 minutes ago, flyhigh603 said:

My Mech said that a brand new carb was installed last annual and with only 40 run on her he's never in 57 yrs seen finger screens clog up like that. He said its surprising I didn't make the news if you know what I mean. I fly over some pretty remote mountain regions up here in the northeast and if I went down good chance I'd never be found so if my Mech said it's crazy to fly her I'm not going. Kinda a serious bummer cause she ran like a top and I've only had her 7 months

 

If you trust this guy , you should listen to him..... It sounds like you should.....  I haven't heard one person offer to ferry it , I also haven't heard one person suggest that they have looked at the aircraft...  Contrary to popular belief , all mechanics are not evil bastards... In fact most are decent guys trying to earn a living... If you have ever attempted a reseal , it is a Vial , horrible job , toxic chemicals , very labor intensive , bad access....  The list goes on and on.....  It sounds like a ferry will involve a separate fuel tank of some sort , Good luck.....