Do i need a pre buy ????

[Oldguy]

A PPI is a risk mitigation strategy for a financial transaction such as this. The truth is, no one has to have a PPI, but the outcome could be total loss of investment plus liability if something catastrophic happens. This may sound simplistic, but a sale can take place without a PPI. The question is more along the lines of what do you want to lose? The PPI is something to give negotiation points, as pointed out in many responses, a list of items which may affect airworthiness and other things which the buyer may want addressed either before or after the purchase takes place.

Me, I'm not in the financial position where I would make as large a purchase without getting as much information as I could through reviewing logs, having a qualified third-party mechanic do a PPI and getting an FAA report on the plane to insure I was getting as close to what I thought I was buying as I could. Maybe it comes from NOT doing that once before and getting thoroughly and royally $cr3w3d. But I catch on pretty quick.

YMMV.

John

[DXB]

As a first time buyer and inexperienced pilot, the pre-buy served additional functions beyond risk mitigation for me:

1. It was an essential introduction to the significant responsibilities of aircraft ownership, including attentiveness to SBs, ADs, and documentation requirements like STCs, 337s.  I had general knowledge of what these things meant but no working understanding of how they apply to a specific aircraft.  

2. The ongoing dialogue with a knowledgeable Mooney mechanic during the inspection taught me a lot about general maintenance issues and Mooney-specific maintenance quirks. 

3. Reviewing all the logs and documents while asking the mechanic questions gave me a very detailed understanding from day one of the maintenance and operational history of my plane. This has proved excellent context in my mind for dealing with subsequent problems as they have come up.  

4. It made me aware of the deferred maintenance items that didn't impact the purchase decision or negotiation much but gave me a jump start on getting some of these addressed.  For instance I changed the gear biscuits and all the hoses, both of which were long overdue.   

If possible, spend a whole day with the guys doing the inspection, try to help out, lay eyes on everything they find, go over all the documents yourself at a level of detail that they won't have time for, ask questions, take detailed notes on the aircraft history. Joey Cole in Dalton Georgia did a great service to me by letting me do this - in fact he encouraged it - tremendous guy. Had I skipped the pre-buy and just bought it, it wouldn't have been a terrible purchase as luck would have it.  But the pre-buy was still worth every penny! Without it, I would have been jeopardized by my own ignorance, if not the condition of the plane itself.  

[DonMuncy]

 

As a first time buyer and inexperienced pilot, the pre-buy served additional functions beyond risk mitigation for me:

1. It was an essential introduction to the significant responsibilities of aircraft ownership, including attentiveness to SBs, ADs, and documentation requirements like STCs, 337s.  I had general knowledge of what these things meant but no working understanding of how they apply to a specific aircraft.  

2. The ongoing dialogue with a knowledgeable Mooney mechanic during the inspection taught me a lot about general maintenance issues and Mooney-specific maintenance quirks. 

3. Reviewing all the logs and documents while asking the mechanic questions gave me a very detailed understanding from day one of the maintenance and operational history of my plane. This has proved excellent context in my mind for dealing with subsequent problems as they have come up.  

4. It made me aware of the deferred maintenance items that didn't impact the purchase decision or negotiation much but gave me a jump start on getting some of these addressed.  For instance I changed the gear biscuits and all the hoses, both of which were long overdue.   

If possible, spend a whole day with the guys doing the inspection, try to help out, lay eyes on everything they find, go over all the documents yourself at a level of detail that they won't have time for, ask questions, take detailed notes on the aircraft history. Joey Cole in Dalton Georgia did a great service to me by letting me do this - in fact he encouraged it - tremendous guy. Had I skipped the pre-buy and just bought it, it wouldn't have been a terrible purchase as luck would have it.  But the pre-buy was still worth every penny! Without it, I would have been jeopardized by my own ignorance, if not the condition of the plane itself.  

I absolutely agree. Looking back, the depth of my ignorance knew no bounds when I was shopping for my (first airplane purchase) Mooney. I was not even smart enough to know how ignorant I was, and did not know that websites were available to help. Thank goodness I stumbled onto All American, and then stumbled into the idea I needed a PPI. I had Don Maxwell do it, but did not attend it. It would have been smarter to have been there.

I am heartened by the prospective purchasers finding and using Mooneyspace in their search. Mine turned out OK, but it was mostly luck and in finding the right people.

[HRM]

To answer the thread question I am going to use my infamous general purpose answer that students hate: it depends.

As others have stated, the PPI reduces uncertainty and mitigates risk.

What is that uncertainty and risk? It clearly has to do with the condition of the machine. It is fairly easy to cover the condition of an aircraft with a paint job, or poor or missing records. Poor condition may also be occluded by a 'fresh annual'.

I did not do a PPI when I purchased The Mistress. When I first saw her I was smitten by her beautiful paint job, but somewhat repelled by her ragged, original interior. I was intrigued by the fact that the PO had rebuilt the engine himself along with an A&P. He kept copious records and was a fellow engineer. I felt I could trust him.

The PO had to sell the plane for medical reasons. It was clear to me that I was getting a bargain.

When I flew her I knew I had to have her. She flew as if God had turned a bird into a machine.

When I learned that her annuals for over a decade had been done at an MSC in Longview, I decided to call the owner of the shop and get his opinion. "It's a good aircraft" was all I needed to hear. I have not looked back and I fly one of the best E's in the fleet--truly Super.

So, no you do not need a PPI, it just depends...

[markejackson02]

 

I bought mine from All American and Maxwell did pre-buy annual.  Worked out very well in terms of getting the plane in good shape, at the right price, and Dave/Jimmy/Don were all great to work with.  

I did the same.  I would recommend it as I still had a $5000 first annual to get things fixed up.  But the process was very transparent and they were easy to work with.  The second plane I bought was a hangar queen where the only pre-buy was to make sure there were no major corrosion issues.  I assumed everything else would have to be replaced and boy was I right....

 

[Browncbr1]

 

To answer the thread question I am going to use my infamous general purpose answer that students hate: it depends.

As others have stated, the PPI reduces uncertainty and mitigates risk.

What is that uncertainty and risk? It clearly has to do with the condition of the machine. It is fairly easy to cover the condition of an aircraft with a paint job, or poor or missing records. Poor condition may also be occluded by a 'fresh annual'.

I did not do a PPI when I purchased The Mistress. When I first saw her I was smitten by her beautiful paint job, but somewhat repelled by her ragged, original interior. I was intrigued by the fact that the PO had rebuilt the engine himself along with an A&P. He kept copious records and was a fellow engineer. I felt I could trust him.

The PO had to sell the plane for medical reasons. It was clear to me that I was getting a bargain.

When I flew her I knew I had to have her. She flew as if God had turned a bird into a machine.

When I learned that her annuals for over a decade had been done at an MSC in Longview, I decided to call the owner of the shop and get his opinion. "It's a good aircraft" was all I needed to hear. I have not looked back and I fly one of the best E's in the fleet--truly Super.

So, no you do not need a PPI, it just depends...

 

Even though I recommended a PPI earlier in this thread, my experience was similar to yours.   I spent time with the owner and also met his mechanic.  The owner built an rv10 on his own including the motor build...  He was a retired engineer who had my F for 27 years and just selling because he finished his RV and was starting to fly it exclusively.   The boiler plate issue is that I developed not only trust in him that he was extremely knowledgable, but also that his maturity and morality was sound.   He really pushed me several times to arrange a PPI, but I felt that I could trust him and his mechanic.  I was dumb, but for me at the time, the litmus test was that the term of the deal was that he would fly it 4 hours to my home field and I covered costs of hotel and getting him home.  I figure that ferry alone was worth $2k.  But, if he trusted the plane with his life for 4 hours over unfamiliar and mountainous terrain in the winter, I figured it was a good starting point for me.   Basically, when I looked at the plane, I just checked for any sign of corrosion anywhere I could.   My first annual turned up nothing.  One of my tanks leaks a little more than it did last year, but I already knew that was coming.  I consider myself extremely lucky.  Especially since you really don't know ANYTHING until having owned a mooney and worked on it for a long time.  IMHO, when it comes to GA, the owner pilot must intimately know every bolt on the plane and how every system works.  It's a continual education, which is why many of us visit this site everyday to learn from others' problems so we can watch out for the same thing possibly coming up on our own plane.   

There is no way I would ever do it that way again, knowing what I know now.  Even more so if I were buying from a broker.  If a seller resists complying with a PPI, then all the more reason to get one.   Do leave it up to luck like I did.   Trust, but verify.   

[M20F]

 

When I learned that her annuals for over a decade had been done at an MSC in Longview, I decided to call the owner of the shop and get his opinion. "It's a good aircraft" was all I needed to hear. I have not looked back and I fly one of the best E's in the fleet--truly Super.

I love Don, he did though (and I did as well) miss a rather important 337 in the pre-buy/2 annuals.  It got noticed when I needed to do an annual elsewhere and we got it sorted eventually.  Don is the best at what he does, but he is human like everyone else.  I would certainly be interested in a plane he had maintained over the years in part of my purchase decision over the 6 different AI's in 6 different years route.  You still though when making a large purchase like this should take it to a reputable second party for a second look it over.

Again not trying to say Don did bad by me or put him in a bad light, just saying four eyes are better than two.

[kmyfm20s]

Do a PPI and do it with a different person that has been performing the annuals, no matter how great of reputation. A second set of eyes is key and they need to represent your best interest. If someone has consistently missed items at annual they will miss them at the PPI or worse they may have loyally to the seller.

[Danb]

 

 

I just purchased an Ovation...closed Dec.31 and can't wait to fly my new mistress home.  The last 4 months of searching has taught (reminded) me a few things.

1. A pre-purchase inspection (PPI) and annual are not the same thing. The pre-purchase involves a much more in-depth assessment of the logs and other assessments that are not apart of an airworthiness assessment that is at the heart of an annual. For instance: a crack in the plastic of a side panel, an auto pilot servo adjustment based on calendar time (not function), paint scuff, flexible hose replacement based on calendar time (not appearance) etc.

2. A new annual should not be considered a PPI. One plane I was considering had just had an annual by a very respected shop. Although not considered airworthiness issues, about 15K worth of "fix it's" were discovered on the PPI by an unrelated 3rd party inspection.

3. A set of "new eyes" to evaluate a plane is a good practice-even for an annual from time to time. Although there are many good shops with mechanics whom we trust with our life, they are not perfect in all things. Weaknesses in one shop will not be the same as in another. No one can be perfect at everything.

4. When spending a lot of resource (money) on a plane that we will be willing to placing our life (and love ones) in, the best advice is to not cut corners and be thrifty with a plane you know little about. learn as much as is humanly possible.

5. Multiple educated opinions are typically better than just one. This does not reflect on the honesty and quality of a particular individual/shop. I have found that some questions just have more than one correct answer.

6. There will be items discovered that the owner truly knew nothing about.

In summary, spend a little extra money and start out right. You may likely receive the monies back as you will negotiate the selling price from a position of knowledge. Chances are you will have a safer plane in the end with no costly surprises.

 

Couldn't agree more, when I bought my new Bravo, they did a PPI on my 1988 J. It was purchased new by me and I had most of the work done by MSC's or after the warranty period reputable shops. The J was 16 years old with about 900 hours of pampered care. I agreed to pay for the inspection and repair the findings. The cost to me was around $12,000 the plane just came out of annual. I've always wondered if I was hosed, poor work done for its 16 yrs.? One of the items was airworthy or lack of I had just flown from De To Fla. to get my Bravo at the dealer at FXE the mags fell apart in the mechanics hand.  True or false?  I did rest easier knowing I sold a plane in the best condition I could put it in. The owner now a MAPA instructor told me last yr. he never had a problem in his 9 yrs. therefore the ppi is good for both parties. Apparently both parties slept better 

[C-GHIJ]

OMG, there like used car salesmen (OK slightly better).  There job is to sell airplanes not fix them.  Most brokers are not licenced mechanics and even if they where I would take what they tell me with a grain of salt.  Remember there job is to sell the aircraft for the greatest profit (for the seller and them).  Your job is to CYA.  Take the aircraft to someone that you trust and know or bring them to the plane.

I'm not against buying an aircraft with out a PPI, BUT the price needs to be so good that if it all goes sideways you don't loose your shirt.

[HRM]

I still say "it depends". Buying a near 50 year old aircraft is a risk no matter how you slice it.

In my case, the first three annuals after I bought the plane were squawk-free and she flies far better than I do.

The fourth annual some squawks appeared that were just old age. I guess I could have insisted that every part on the plane be new when I bought her, but think about how ridiculous that is.

Also, don't ignore the pilot side of a purchase. If the pilot/owner is willing to compromise then those compromises will rear up and bite you later. This is a tough thing to detect and this is where if you have no knowledge of the guy flying the plane that you are thinking of buying, then you had best have a thorough and very competent PPI.

This pretty much says volumes: ...for me at the time, the litmus test was that the term of the deal was that he would fly it 4 hours to my home...

[L. Trotter]

 

Did you by chance buy the O that was listed by Airmart? 

sorry for the delay...

Not certain about the O on Airmart, but don't think it is the same one. I originally saw it on the Controller.  N10469 was based in Denver. It is a 2005 with a GFC700...interesting combo. I'm told the original owner cut a deal with Mooney (at the time of purchase) to place the 700 when it became available. It was placed in 2008. 

With the strong support from so many on this site, I decided to upgrade to the 310hp version! I pick it up this weekend. There just has to be something illegal about the way I feel right now.

[StinkBug]

I asked this exact question a year ago when buying my plane from All American. It had all it's maintenance done by maxwell and that combination made me feel very secure. Even so David told me to get a pre-buy, as did the folks here. I ended up having a full annual done, and it came back with very little needed, and since then I've put around 350hrs on the plane with virtually no unscheduled maintenance. Making sure the plane is what you think it is is money very well spent. 

[StinkBug]

 

Do a PPI and do it with a different person that has been performing the annuals, no matter how great of reputation. A second set of eyes is key and they need to represent your best interest. If someone has consistently missed items at annual they will miss them at the PPI or worse they may have loyally to the seller.

For this very reason Don Maxwell did not want to do the PPI on my plane. He had done all the maintenance and annuals, and is enough of a stand up guy to say no to inspecting his own work. 

[Bravoman]

 

sorry for the delay...

Not certain about the O on Airmart, but don't think it is the same one. I originally saw it on the Controller.  N10469 was based in Denver. It is a 2005 with a GFC700...interesting combo. I'm told the original owner cut a deal with Mooney (at the time of purchase) to place the 700 when it became available. It was placed in 2008. 

With the strong support from so many on this site, I decided to upgrade to the 310hp version! I pick it up this weekend. There just has to be something illegal about the way I feel right now.

Glad you are enjoying your new plane! The O I was referring to was owned by a fellow here in Atlanta for a brief time and he listed it with Airmart. The timing of the sale was close so that's why I asked.

 

regards, Frank

[Cayman44]

Who would anyone recommend to do a Mooney PPI in the Wichita, KS area?  There are no approved Mooney specific shops in the area.

Thanks

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Cayman.

Standby for recommendations.

By Mooney standards, TX isn't that far away.

Best regards,

-a-

[Pritch]

Does anyone have any problems with Lake Aero doing a PPI/Annual.  Had them do some work on my 63C yrs ago and was happy then, and they even sold it for me in 2002.

 

[HRM]

18 minutes ago, Pritch said:

Does anyone have any problems with Lake Aero doing a PPI/Annual.  Had them do some work on my 63C yrs ago and was happy then, and they even sold it for me in 2002.

 

I for one have only heard good things out of LASAR--I even put their Wiser-Visors in the Mistress--remember, she only gets the best

[Ron McBride]

Lasar, did my annual last summer.   the plane flies better now than ever.

Ron

 

[RangerJim]

Pitch,

Lasar will do a very thorough and professional job in my experience..  

[ryoder]

On January 10, 2016 at 5:55 PM, Mooney_Mike said:

What is a "prebuy" exactly? Everyone is going to have a different definition. I had a "prebuy" done on my 1975 F model when I bought it and I have learned some valuable lessons from the experience. Essentially, a prebuy offers you no protection whatsoever. Maybe your shop spots something maybe they don't. No shop or mechanic is required to sign or endorse anything that guarantees anything at all in any way

I had a "prebuy" done by a Mooney certified shop in the Atlanta area, he found a few minor squawks that were repaired. I paid the money and flew it home, turned out there was a crack in the engine mount discovered after I had it in annual the very next month. The engine had to come off and the mount sent off for repair. A very expensive fix (lots of labor), which was caught in a full annual by the way.

The best protection is for the buyer to pay the base price of a full annual and the seller agrees to pay for all unairworthy items found (whether the annual is due or not). Now you have some concrete assurance and protection. The shop or mechanic has to sign your logbook certifying that the aircraft is airworthy and all AD's are current. They are putting their livelihood/mechanics licence on the line and that is about as much motivation as you are going to get. Make sure to use a different shop then the owner has been using. Also, the obvious fact that they are Mooney current goes without saying.

If paying the the base cost of an annual is too much money for your budget, then you are probably not financially ready for aircraft ownership right now.

 

 

 

I bought my C without a prebuy but I picked it up at the independent local shop where it was just annualled.  So far so good.

[chrisk]

When I was shopping for my plane I looked at a M20K in El Paso. I had a shop on the field perform a pre-buy, even though it had less than 1 hour on the plane from an annual 3 weeks earlier.   And of course the "fresh" annual had been performed by the shop that was selling the plane.  Two cylinders had low compression and were leaking past the exhaust valves.  All trust was gone.  I moved on.  And that was probably the best money I've spent in some time.

So, no you don't need a pre-buy.  There is no FAR that mandates it.  It will however reduce your financial risk.  The reduction in risk is related to the thoroughness of the pre buy.   As others have mentioned, as good strategy is to turn a successful pre buy into an annual. --Then pay for your new plane.

 

[Mcoyne34]

A prebuy is not needed, but foregoing one would not be wise. Not doing a prebuy beforehand to save a few bucks could very likely end up costing you thousands later. Pay the $1k and be sure of the plane you buy. 

 

BTW, is this Phil from Merrimack?

[midlifeflyer]

8 hours ago, ryoder said:

I bought my C without a prebuy but I picked it up at the independent local shop where it was just annualled.  So far so good.

OTOH, I know someone who relied on an annual by the seller's mechanic (who had performed the annuals for a few years) and later had to pay for a lot of repair work, including the teardown once the FAA was informed of all the unauthorized and improper repairs that had been either done or missed through the years.

its not even a question of dishonesty. Just of that second set of eyes hired by you, rather than by them.

There are no guarantees either way. It's a matter of risk tolerance and mitigation.