There are NO legal led direct replacement bulbs!

[cliffy]

This was covered in another very long thread.

There are no qualified "standard part"  replacement navigation light bulbs!  By definition, LED bulbs are not standard parts as there is no national standard for the design and manufacture of any led bulb.

They do don't match EXACTLY any national standard for any of the numbered nav bulbs we use. Just because the base matches the mounting of the incandescent bulb does not make it a legal replacement as a standard part. THEY DO NOT HAVE A GLASS GLOBE AND A TUNGSTEN FILAMENT THAT MATCHES EXACTLY WHAT THE CALLED FOR STANDARD BULB HAS.

They have to match the color wave length also called out for navigation lighting- do they? prove it!

They have to match the angle of view called out for approval  -already in question. 

What can happen if used?

Well the dimmer circuit for one as mentioned (BTW what is the resistance of the bulb when it is illuminated? It will be different than when unlit). 

Where is the approved process to "alter the design" by installing a resistor across an led bulb to make the circuit work? It is an alteration. BTW you will lose the amperage savings of the LED bulb by doing this. The resistor is bypassing the same amps as the old bulb did. How much amperage is passed through a 5.6 ohm resistor at 12 volts going to ground? 

Changing the nav lite bulbs comes under "maintenance" or " preventive maintenance" determined by who does it. Both require a legal sign off in the log books. Both persons (A&P or owner) must ascertain that the installed part is legal to install. If it is not, penalties attach. NOT JUST ASKED TO CHANGE BACK TO ORIGINAL!

If it is found on a ramp check without a sign off in the maint log book then who is legally responsible?  THE OWNER BY REGULATION!

If it is signed off who is responsible? THE OWNER AGAIN AND WHOM EVER SIGNED IT OFF. 

Now the mickey mouse logbook sticker? NOT LEGAL!  To qualify as to form, fit and function only requires specific FAA approval by regulation ( see previous led nav light thread).

As was mentioned by philplane, the fines go up exponentially with every flight and all the regs they can pile on if they want to. 

Does anyone not think that the Feds read these boards and get ideas to investigate on ramp checks? Think again. 

Bottom line?It ain't legal unless the lights have an STC right now! 

 

 

 

 

 

[DXB]

I don't doubt these assertions.  I'd hope the Feds would focus their  limited bandwidth for GA on issues that more significantly impact safety, rather than playing gotcha. But that's not the world we live in.

[Marauder]

All this over a light bulb.

Better. Brighter. Burns cooler. Uses less power. Lasts longer. Better not use that! 

No doubt your argument is correct cliffy.

To hell with common sense. The government is involved, even more so, not just the government, the FAA. 

Things that make you shake your head, and pour a stiff drink ... 

"Chickenshit" is what we called it in the Army. 

Wait until we start talking about certified nuts! You'll think we have some uncertified screws loose!

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[aaronk25]

I have illegals light bulbs come get me .....

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[jetdriven]

I have issues with the fit form function read literally because than can be narrowed down to a .003 thick glass bulb with a 97%, .0035" Nichrome filament wound to a .008" radius and draws exactly .57 amps.  Well only a GE 1757 bulb can exactly conform to that.

i like new technology heck I have a HID landing light it's bright enough to scorch paper but philplane says it's illegal because, although the fit (PAR46), form ( doesn't qualify cause it has a ballast), and function ( doesn't qualify... it's far much brighter than a GE4522 and may cause RF interference (none noted in 650 hours, but i digress)  makes it illegal. NVM it's not required for part 91.. Even though it was grandfathered in before the ban..., anyways  

But here's my beef.  I noticed back in 2003 when I put LED taillight bulbs in my 1991 eagle talon (promptly removed that night),  they come close then, and now exceed the brightness when viewed dead on, they rapidly lose brightness when viewed near the edge of the required viewing angle.  

Until anyone can demonstratively prove a LED bayonet bulb can drop in and meet the required lumens throughout the required viewing angle I take the same position as Cliffy.  I want them but we are not there yet. Show me one. I'll send a check. 

Edited January 9, 2016 by jetdriven

[carusoam]

There was a time when R&D was a tax exempt part of a business.  Even small businesses had small R&D groups working on small inventive projects like these.  There is no reason a small bulb like these can't match the form and functionality of the glass bulb with a tungsten filament.  But it won't happen without R&D in this country to meet that need.

Tax laws changed in the 90s, R&D efforts like these evaporated on the following year.

Bring back the tax shelter for R&D.  Allow engineers and scientist to work on R&D.

Sort of joined you guys with the anti big brother rant,

-a-

 

 

[HRM]

Comment.

[Guitarmaster]

 

I have issues with the fit form function read literally because than can be narrowed down to a .003 thick glass bulb with a 97%, .0035" Nichrome filament wound to a .008" radius and draws exactly .57 amps.  Well only a GE 1757 bulb can exactly conform to that.

i like new technology heck I have a HID landing light it's bright enough to scorch paper but philplane says it's illegal because, although the fit (PAR46), form ( doesn't qualify cause it has a ballast), and function ( doesn't qualify... it's far much brighter than a GE4522 and may cause RF interference (none noted in 650 hours, but i digress)  makes it illegal. NVM it's not required for part 91.. Even though it was grandfathered in before the ban..., anyways  

But here's my beef.  I noticed back in 2003 when I put LED taillight bulbs in my 1991 eagle talon (promptly removed that night),  they come close then, and now exceed the brightness when viewed dead on, they rapidly lose brightness when viewed near the edge of the required viewing angle.  

Until anyone can demonstratively prove a LED bayonet bulb can drop in and meet the required lumens throughout the required viewing angle I take the same position as Cliffy.  I want them but we are not there yet. Show me one. I'll send a check. 

The PSA bulbs meet all the requirements for brightness and angle of viewing per the Advisory Circular (i don't know the number). The pinecone bulbs don't, but the paddles do. If you call Bob at PSA 863-853-2448, he has all the data and I'm sure he will be happy to send it to you.  Please don't take my word for it, research the data for yourself.

[DaV8or]

For those dying to have LED bulbs in your nav lights right now, I suggest you leave the colored lenses in instead of going to the superior clear lenses. At least when the plane is tied down on the ramp it won't be obvious to an FAA inspector walking by. I personally will just stick with the incandescent bulbs and hope that one day the price of legal LED replacements come down to reasonable. Either that or someday I will just go experimental. This kind of crap nauseates me.

[Immelman]

OP: This thread title and most of your post appear to just stir things up suggesting there is no legal way to operate with LED bulbs.

Then at the end you mention STC... People like Whelen have STCs for their LED products for our Mooneys. Approved. Legal. What is the big deal?

 

Edited January 9, 2016 by Immelman

[ArtVandelay]

OP: This thread title and most of your post appear to just stir things up suggesting there is no legal way to operate with LED bulbs.

Then at the end you mention STC... People like Whelen have STCs for their LED products for our Mooneys. Approved. Legal. What is the big deal?

 

I think the only objection to Whelens are the price.

[Bennett]

The drop in replacement bulb (nav lights) may not be here yet, but there are "legal" ways to have LED nav lights, strobe lights, and recognition lights, I have them via a 337 form, which may be difficult to obtain in many FISDOs, but mine are certainly "legal" to the FAA. And I understand that I am not the only one who has gone this way to use LEDs for those purposes. I think that LED combination wing tip nav and strobe lights are available under STCs as are LED landing lights. Mine are subjectively brighter than the incandescent units they replace, draw very little power, and in the case of the strobes, I gained a bit of useful load in eliminating the power packs.

[Sabremech]

It seems as thought the manufacturer of the paddle bulb could get FAA/PMA on their LED lights if they meet what they say they meet on their logbook sign off. You don't necessarily need an STC to install the lights. 

[N201MKTurbo]

If the paddle bulb guys went through the process to get an STC, they would need to recover that cost. It would probably drive the price up to where the Whelen bulbs are. Welcome to Aviation!

[philiplane]

 

 

"i like new technology heck I have a HID landing light it's bright enough to scorch paper but philplane says it's illegal because, although the fit (PAR46), form ( doesn't qualify cause it has a ballast), and function ( doesn't qualify... it's far much brighter than a GE4522 and may cause RF interference (none noted in 650 hours, but i digress)  makes it illegal. NVM it's not required for part 91.. Even though it was grandfathered in before the ban..., anyways"

No, HID's are a different topic and require different approvals. They require STC or a Field Approval, because they can cause RFI that will interfere with your comm and nav radios on certain frequencies. That is why they must demonstrate no adverse affects under DO-160. 

Field Approvals of non-STC HID lamps are not difficult. I was an early adopter and have dozens of approvals, including the first Cessna Citation approval that is now in the Lopresti line of STC'd HID lights. I'm also developing other lighting but the high power LED's present such problems that only deep pocketed developers can get them to work correctly. LED's also present radio interference problems in some installations, and they also do not run cool as some suggest. They just disperse heat differently. That is why LED's require heat sinks or they will catch fire. The heat sink can be a finned housing like on the back of the Whelen Parametheus or the Teledyne Alphabeam, or it can go through the airframe if the LED is incorporated into an aluminum housing on a nav light. Either way if you don't dissipate the heat the LED board will fail in short order. Or the LED's will fall off the board like this: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hb0t176wsxc3wv2/AAC-yRbRj3-7V3EBdVgJbRGUa?dl=0

And if the data exists to prove the PSA paddles meet the specs, then they only have to pass RFI tests under DO-160, and submit the paperwork to the ACO for a PMA. Of course then PSA will have to maintain an FAA approved parts manufacturing facility which will add a lot of expense. Now you understand why certified lamp assemblies cost $600 each. Low volume products with high barriers to market entry always cost a premium. 

Edited January 9, 2016 by philiplane

[cliffy]

Immelman

My O posting dealt with drop in replacement LED light bulbs that replaced incandescent light bulbs in the same fixture. It had nothing to do with currently STC'd LED nav light systems

 

LED drop in bulbs can't fit in the "standard parts" category therefore their installation needs to have some kind of approval authority which no drop in LED bulb has at this time. If it doesn't meet the standard parts category then it MUST meet a PMA approval for manufacture for sale to certified airplanes. Do not pass go do not collect $200. There are no other options. If you don't believe me take a sample of the bulb and paperwork to your Feds office and ask them to OK the installation. Come back here and tell us all what they said and if I'm wrong I'll eat my words. 

If someone wants to put them in and thumb their nose at the Feds and legality, so be it. Go for it.  Let us know if your IA will sign off on your annual after you tell him you changed them yourself and didn't sign off the installation as required. If you won't sign it off as the owner after you put them in No guts-No glory! Better yet, ask your local FSDO to do a ramp check on your airplane after you tell them what you did. Tell us how that works out. Again No guts- no glory! What you are advocating is deliberately violating FARs. If you want to go down that road, have at it.   

My interest is in trying to help those, who may not know, how to avoid a problem with the Feds.

Sorry but I'm far too old and have been in this business far too long and watched far too many people die to be PC knowing from experience that little things lead to big things and big things lead to dead people. 

[ryoder]

The government is a joke,. They can't keep us safe from terrorists, allowed N Korea and Iran to get nukes and they piss around with LED lights on 50 year old airplanes.

[Yetti]

As a question of understanding.

Is there a PMA database?  I saw that one company sells a subscription.

If I found such PMA database would the Grimes or Wheelen tungsten filament bulb be in it?  GE Landing light?

[Ron McBride]

I was in Fresno Fido last week. Nice guy to talk with.  Led's for nav lights came up, his statement  "Whelen has some. "

Ron

[Bravoman]

Like my old man used to say, ill eagle is just a sick bird!

[Bob_Belville]

Sure am glad we settled that! 

[flight2000]

 

I was in Fresno Fido last week. Nice guy to talk with.  Led's for nav lights came up, his statement  "Whelen has some. "

Ron

Yep, the Whelen 650 system I installed after my original system failed is STC'd for the Mooney, so I'm good...     Same for the beacon on the belly after the coffee grinder failed last summer.  All are LED replacements and legal with the FAA.  I prefer the brighter lights over the older systems too. 

Cheers,

Brian

[Yetti]

SO part of my question is answered

The FAA Regulatory Guidance Library has PMA approvals. 

http://rgl.faa.gov/

Here is the PMA database

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgPMA.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameset

 

I looked up the Grimes Part number for the position light and it is listed only as something to other parts to replace

I looked up Grimes as the Manufacture to see if the position bulbs are listed.   Could not find them.

Apparently there is no PMA approval for the tungsten filament bulb. Something is disconcerting about the "reference" standard not being PMA approved taints the rest of the process.

Off to see if I can find the GE landing light.

 

[philiplane]

some of you are looking for evidence that the old nav light lamps had a TSO or PMA. You might not find one for Grimes as the manufacturer, since they would have made the entire assembly under a PMA and not the lamp itself. Grimes would buy the lamp from GE, and the whole assembly may have a separate PMA, or it may have been sold directly to Mooney for example, and Mooney's Type Certificate would have included the nav lamp assembly from Grimes, under a Mooney and a Grimes part number, and individual replacement parts for the whole thing in the Mooney parts catalog. Buy any replacement part from Mooney and it's all covered under their Production Certificate. Buy any individual replacement part from a different source than Grimes and NOW YOU have to make sure it is a legitimate airplane part.

Clear as mud but that's how this whole thing works. It should be easier but it is a product of a Federal bureaucracy that is tasked with safety first at all costs, job security second, and whether it makes sense to aircraft owners is mostly irrelevant.

[DaV8or]

 

SO part of my question is answered

The FAA Regulatory Guidance Library has PMA approvals. 

http://rgl.faa.gov/

Here is the PMA database

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgPMA.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameset

 

I looked up the Grimes Part number for the position light and it is listed only as something to other parts to replace

I looked up Grimes as the Manufacture to see if the position bulbs are listed.   Could not find them.

Apparently there is no PMA approval for the tungsten filament bulb. Something is disconcerting about the "reference" standard not being PMA approved taints the rest of the process.

Off to see if I can find the GE landing light.

 

Nope. The incandescent bulbs that have always been in our Mooneys are the same ones at the auto part store. No PMA on them.