Bonanza crash this evening at Mesquite TX

[bonal]

As a VFR only I have very conservative no go choice I have read of so many accidents that involved IFR Pilots and I know it makes you a better pilot but it also gives you more options to fly into dangerous weather. I once encountered zero vis on a long CC and the first thing that I did was let the auto pilot continue to fly the airplane. I advised ATC of my situation and I was well aware of my position and AGL began a slow decent to get below the smoke that had gotten too thick to see. I guess what I'm saying is the most important thing is to not panic communicate with the controllers and if your in trouble confess and comply. From all that I have read and seen in recreations. Those controllers will move heaven and earth to get you down safely but the first step is to let them know you are in jeopardy.

[flyboy0681]

As a VFR only I have very conservative no go choice I have read of so many accidents that involved IFR Pilots and I know it makes you a better pilot but it also gives you more options to fly into dangerous weather. I once encountered zero vis on a long CC and the first thing that I did was let the auto pilot continue to fly the airplane. I advised ATC of my situation and I was well aware of my position and AGL began a slow decent to get below the smoke that had gotten too thick to see. I guess what I'm saying is the most important thing is to not panic communicate with the controllers and if your in trouble confess and comply. From all that I have read and seen in recreations. Those controllers will move heaven and earth to get you down safely but the first step is to let them know you are in jeopardy.

 

The main reason I got my IR after 30 years of flying was because when I bought into my partnership I found myself having to cancel a lot of trips due to low overcast (my airport is a couple of miles from the shore). It was equally frustrating knowing that the remainder of  the route was clear just a few miles away. Now I plow right through it and haven't had to cancel a trip since. It affords me a lot of freedom but I'm keenly aware that I need to stay on top of my new skills.

 

And you are correct about controllers. A friend or mine is a controller and he's told me on several occasions that they just love to help whenever they can. But you have to ask!

[flyboy0681]

Spatial disorientation. Having to trust your instruments although other senses are screaming at you to do something else.

I, for one, have experienced moments of light vertigo on recent trips ... IFR, IMC, single-pilot in our Mooney, no auto-pilot ... descending, turning ... with a female ATC controller spitting out course changes, route changes, headings, altitudes, squawk changes ... one right after another ... like it was no problem at all!

Descending, turning, trying to look at a new route on the map, watching the 20/23 descent in the yellow airspeed range (reducing MP as we descend) , watch carb temp gauge (above my head) then program an iPad mini (on the yoke) then tuning radios/VORS, then back to the altimeter trying not to blow through the altitude assigned in a descent ... It can get real busy really quickly, task saturation ...

It makes you get serious on the instruments for a while ...

Prioritize tasks ...

and I write all the clearances down on my thirty some year old knee-board ... so I can remember what we were given!

 

 

I got my first case of the leans last month but quickly identified it and did what I was trained to do... trust the instruments.

[Mooneymite]

When I consider the equipment of the aircraft and the fact that the pilot was an instrument rated commercial pilot, then look at the erratic ground track, it makes me wonder if he was partial panel, but for some reason didn't want to tell anyone.  Partial panel can tax even a proficient pilot.

 

It's a strange situation.

[1964-M20E]

Spatial disorientation. Having to trust your instruments although other senses are screaming at you to do something else.

I, for one, have experienced moments of light vertigo on recent trips ... IFR, IMC, single-pilot in our Mooney, no auto-pilot ... descending, turning ... with a female ATC controller spitting out course changes, route changes, headings, altitudes, squawk changes ... one right after another ... like it was no problem at all!

Descending, turning, trying to look at a new route on the map, watching the 20/23 descent in the yellow airspeed range (reducing MP as we descend) , watch carb temp gauge (above my head) then program an iPad mini (on the yoke) then tuning radios/VORS, then back to the altimeter trying not to blow through the altitude assigned in a descent ... It can get real busy really quickly, task saturation ...

It makes you get serious on the instruments for a while ...

Prioritize tasks ...

and I write all the clearances down on my thirty some year old knee-board ... so I can remember what we were given!

Sounds like you handled things well good job.  I have had vertigo before my gut telling me that plane was doing something totally different than what the instruments were telling me.  Yes sometimes it can get pretty hectic in IMC trying to accomplish what you described.  Don’t forget you can always ask ATC to repeat instructions, a vector and stable altitude, tell them you need to reset for the approach and give you vectors for sequencing.  Slow down unless ATC calls out an instruction and using immediate you have some tome to comply, fly the airplane, keep it right side up and under control.  I am not to being callous but “As long as you are flying you are not dying”.

[Bob_Belville]

I am surprised to see so many posts from Mooney pilots who do not have or plan to have an instrument ticket. A Mooney is a cross country plane. Cross country VFR is almost a contradiction in terms. At least in the Eastern part of the country. Sure, you can go on $100 burger runs or to kinda local fly ins to return the same day but if you go somewhere even for a couple of days you are very likely encounter weather going or coming.

 

I seldom, almost never, fly anymore where I have to shoot an approach. I'm retired, I don't have to be anywhere. But even so I note I have logged over 11 hours IMC this year, out of 80 hours TT. Sometimes that was just a climb or descent through a layer sometimes more than that. I've logged 14 instrument approaches this year, all practice in VFR conditions.     

 

Years ago, when I was working and traveling for business, I flew in almost any kind of weather except known icing. I did not consider that activity particularly dangerous, certainly not compared to long distance driving in bad weather. 

[bonal]

As one who uses flight following frequently I am always impressed by the skill that I hear on both ends of the conversation and yes sometimes you can hear frustration from the controllers when pilots make mistakes. But I am 100% sure that if you advise them your in trouble they will hit the reset on whatever stress or frustration they might be having and give you there very best. I have a lot of respect for them and the job they do. This accident seems to have a missing piece to the puzzle.

[RocketAviator]

Thoughts and prayers for his family. The only good that can come of this is for all the rest of us learn & grow from this tragedy!

[scottfromiowa]

I am surprised to see so many posts from Mooney pilots who do not have or plan to have an instrument ticket. A Mooney is a cross country plane. Cross country VFR is almost a contradiction in terms. At least in the Eastern part of the country. Sure, you can go an $100 burger runs or kinda local fly ins to return the same day but if you go somewhere even for a couple of days you are very likely encounter weather going or coming.

I seldom, almost never, fly anymore where I have to shoot an approach. I'm retired, I don't have to be anywhere. But even so I note I have logged over 11 hours IMC this year, out of 80 hours TT. Sometimes that was just a climb or descent through a layer sometimes more than that. I've logged 14 instrument approaches this year, all practice in VFR conditions.

Years ago, when I was working and traveling for business, I flew in almost any kind of weather except known icing. I did not consider that activity particularly dangerous, certainly not compared to long distance driving in bad weather.

I hear you Bob, but I have about 650 VFR Cross Country hours logged in my Mooney. I have not gone (driven) as needed over the years as well as leaving early or staying longer to be safe. It CAN be done in the Midwest. Would I like to have my ticket? Yes. Will I get it (second child last tuition check soon to mailed...daughter married next October)? Hopefully. The idea to go up and do approaches with my IFR (not current) co-owner is a great one. He plans to "update" the panel GPS and indicator "before" ADSB mandate...Then we will be able to "do it". No glide-slope currently in plane. I am clueless to the "ways of IFR" so would benefit from being safety pilot...I look forward to it.

[M016576]

When I consider the equipment of the aircraft and the fact that the pilot was an instrument rated commercial pilot, then look at the erratic ground track, it makes me wonder if he was partial panel, but for some reason didn't want to tell anyone. Partial panel can tax even a proficient pilot.

It's a strange situation.

Any convective activity? A bumpy day in the goo is also taxing.

[flyboy0681]

Yes, a bumpy ride will do it too!

 

Maneuvering around them is what I find tiring.

[flyboy0681]

While (you are correct) it is tiring, I'll almost always choose to go around if I have the choice.

 

Just for the record, I don't go anywhere near them, but down here in Florida they are all over the place during the summer, from east coast to gulf and flying in a straight line is a near impossibility. I probably should have used the word "avoid" in instead of "maneuver".

[carqwik]

I listened to the ATC recordings...they were posted on the Pilots of America boards within the thread here:

 

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77741

 

Don't know if the links to LiveATC still work but it's clear that the pilot had some kind of difficulties just getting on the approach.  He made five approach attempts (lost it on the fifth)...and the controller even offered him to go somewhere else at some point.  The GPS 35 approach is pretty straight forward...and controller even tried to put him on the ILS 17 for circle to land. 

 

I think there is more to this story than simply spatial disorientation.

 

RIP.

[fantom]

I suspect it was something medical.....to bad. RIP, indeed.

[N1026F]

I think I flew more marginal VFR before my IFR ticket than after. The training exposed some assumptions that I no longer make; and... I've never heard anyone say it was a waste of time. Staying current is a challenge but the essential training of picking a heading and an altitude and sticking with it until making an active decision to pick another heading and altitude and making those empirical decisions saves lives and gives you something to do rather than the brain overload that occurs when you're unable to prioritize and stay on the same page as ATC.

 

One caveat: I have a G500 with AHRS, synthetic vision, a 530W and 430W, and a KFC 225 autopilot with altitude preselect, etc.---I think the world of those IFR pilots before me that were/are comfortable in IFR with the minimal steam gauges and needles--I just can't imagine developing a comfort level without modern equipment AND staying current.  

 

It may be too basic for the more experienced members here to think they have to "say it out loud" but as any CFII will tell you during IFR practice:  "DAMMIT, PICK A HEADING AND AN ALTITUDE AND HOLD IT!--await further instructions from ATC and remember the two words "emergency" and "unable."

[N33GG]

The controller really tried to help him after the 4th missed approach, and the pilot persisted. Very sad. The audio is chilling.

[flyboy0681]

The controller really tried to help him after the 4th missed approach, and the pilot persisted. Very sad. The audio is chilling.

 

The controller also sensed something wasn't right, eventually asking him how the fuel situation was.

[aviatoreb]

and I write all the clearances down on my thirty some year old knee-board ... so I can remember what we were given!

 

I write everything as I am told it while I am being told it - not as much to remember but to even understand.  Because sometimes they give directions so fast, I find I can copy accurately without worrying too much about interpreting the meaning, and then only after read back, then I can interpret and process in my head more carefully what I am being asked to do.  If I try to hear and understand at the same time then either remember or copy, then I find myself two steps back and loosing the tail end of a long set of instructions.

[PTK]

Thoughts and prayers go out to his family. May he rest in peace.

[gsxrpilot]

I need to go shoot some approaches.

[Bob_Belville]

I need to go shoot some approaches.

I shot 2 Wednesday, plus a hold, and another one today! 

[M016576]

Carbon monoxide?

No to stir too much thread drift- but a 2 dollar CO detector, hypoxia training and carrying an O2 bottle w/ mask sure are great insurance... Even if you don't fly above 12,500'....

[aviatoreb]

No to stir too much thread drift- but a 2 dollar CO detector, hypoxia training and carrying an O2 bottle w/ mask sure are great insurance... Even if you don't fly above 12,500'....

 

Is that the right solution for CO gasses at below 12500?  (I'm asking).  I do in fact have a back up O2 for a backup when flying high but I had not thought of it for CO use.  I have this as my backup since I like how it is very fast grab-twist-and good.

http://www.mhoxygen.com/index.php/portable-constant-flow/emergency-systems

 

I had always figured with CO in the cockpit then open vents, possibly open side window.

[DonMuncy]

The mask will work better. Not to give you oxygen, but to exclude the CO. The blood "likes" CO better than O2 and will absorb CO if it is available. The only way to stop it is to get rid of the CO and then enough time for your body to recover. That is not a fast process. With a near fatal dose of CO, it will be many hours.

So if you have oxygen, use it at a high enough flow rate to push the CO away from your face.

If you don't have available oxygen, decreasing the amount (percentage) of CO in the air you are breathing by opening vents to get more untainted air in. If you are going slow enough, open the storm window and hold your face as close as you can while getting on the ground as quickly as possible.  

[bonal]

Speculation for sure we don't know what happened I don't know if there was a post crash fire but if not they will do a toxicology on the body and that will reveal if there was CO. He was clearly having trouble but never made that known to the controllers. Climb communicate confess comply and circle if you don't know where you are till they can help sort things out.