More Maintinance B$

[Justin Schmidt]

Many think throwing more money at mechanics will make the problem go away (A certain "mechanic" everyone revers as a god)...throwing money at the problem will make it worse. I have had mechanics work on my plane that could barely wipe their our butt. I see things in the way of avionics, wiring, mechanical that I sit there shaking my head. Every industry that throws money at the problem has gotten worse and doesn't attract better people but worse as they can get more money doing little. Frankly, for GA aircraft I don't think an umbrella approach will work, some owners are very mechanically/electronically inclined and others are not.
A solution might be allow owners that are able to do certain work do it. (Does this look something like being able to take an evaluation without having to take all the required hours of an A&P). I can say as an engineer I shake my head at a lot of things, plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics, other engineers etc. and has come that I really only feel safe doing things myself.  Also, perhaps in the same line allow an owner whom can't do something chose someone they trust that did go through that abbreviated process. All the good A&P can go to the airlines and costs can remain low (well relatively) in GA.

I do think this will get much worse before anyone will stand up and do something such as our GA fleet sitting for over a year waiting for work, more maintenance induced crashes/deaths. I posted above that if we(maybe get EAA/AOPA on board) of creating a database of these failures or just errors that don't result in incidents, we would be able to have some teeth in any approach. We all know the NTSB doesn't pay much attention to GA and well FAA has been hostile for decades.

[Fritz1]

Yes to all, there are about 130,000 A&Ps in the US, lots of baby boomers retiring in the next 10 years, supply does not look like it will make up for the stream of retirees and a large percentage of the supply will go into large industrial maintenance, according to my limited life experience it pays to help in the shop when your aircraft is there, be plite, understand your aircraft and sometimes nudge the work in a certain direction, if you don't like what is going on tell them, if that does not help after the 3rd attempt go somewhere else, there are lots of shops and A&Ps that do good work, the art of the deal is finding them and keeping them engaged, getting your own A&P typically requires 30 months full time experience which computes to 4800h, presuming a retractable single flies 100h per year somebody typically has to fix something for 200h, hence it takes 24 years to accumulate 4800h experience part time, it took me almost twice that long and I am about to take the last of three A&P tests. My hunch is that there will eventually be FAA sanctioned A&P school programs that reduce the practical experience requirement to maybe half or one third of what it is now and the certificate will be limited to aircraft not flown for hire and maybe even owned by the A&P, let's see.

[OR75]

Fewer A&P schools making it more difficult. A good percentage of the students do not graduate with an A&P.  Those who do prefer to go work for an Airline (if they have a passion for aviation), or for a Public Transit maintenance facility,  or for companies that appreciate and pay for the A&P training (like Tesla). And I would not blame them !   

 

[Greg Ellis]

I have a very good shop on my airport that has lost most of their good mechanics to the airlines.  The shop has stopped doing regular maintenance and are just doing avionics (they are certified installers for all the big names, Garmin, Avidyne, etc...).  Fortunately, they have more avionics work than they can handle and are booked out for months.  But unfortunately, I lost a very convenient place to get regular maintenance, etc...

[hammdo]

The shop I go to is like that also, Main AP/IA retired, sold business to one of his employees, - now doing mostly avionics. They are doing some work for their existing customers but are swamp with avionics work…

I have a lot of past experience with auto/homebuild aircraft/refurbished aircraft under A&P (wish I’d logged that) so I now follow the Coleal interpretation 

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2019/october/pilot/savvy-aviator-preventive-maintenance

and do what I can…

-Don

[Denis Mexted]

I use to see these threads on Beechtalk. Interestingly not so much on SuperCub.org. I guess with Cubs more owners are actively involved in the maintenance. 
Many threads of owners indignant of missed maintenance. Then equally as many threads of owners outraged at the cost of maintenance bills.

Poor old mechanic, damned if he did, damned if he didn’t.

I decided many years ago I couldn’t afford to be involved in light aircraft unless I could control the maintenance. So I went and got an airframe license.

My approach with my nearly 50 year old aircraft is to give it a lot of love. Replace, rebuild, paint lots of systems, then enjoy the benefits of some lighter annuals.

[KLRDMD]

17 hours ago, Austintatious said:

Collectively I think  owners need to push to have older aircraft be subject to the same rules as experimental as far as maintenance goes. 

My next airplane will be experimental. Unless you absolutely have to have something that only a certified airplane will do, it only makes sense nowadays. The below discussion fits my needs.

First question: Do you need four seats?

Really? Note that the question is “need,” not “want” or “would be kind of nice.” Suppose the honest answer is no. You’ve thought back over the last couple of years of flying time and realize that it’s very rare to have anybody in the back seat of the Cessna. For the vast majority of your flying, two seats would be sufficient.

https://www.vansaircraft.com/which-rv-is-right-for-me

 

[OR75]

38 minutes ago, Denis Mexted said:

I use to see these threads on Beechtalk. Interestingly not so much on SuperCub.org. I guess with Cubs more owners are actively involved in the maintenance. 
Many threads of owners indignant of missed maintenance. Then equally as many threads of owners outraged at the cost of maintenance bills.

Poor old mechanic, damned if he did, damned if he didn’t.

I decided many years ago I couldn’t afford to be involved in light aircraft unless I could control the maintenance. So I went and got an airframe license.

My approach with my nearly 50 year old aircraft is to give it a lot of love. Replace, rebuild, paint lots of systems, then enjoy the benefits of some lighter annuals.

maybe a lot of cubs in AK ? An exception state when it comes to maintenance. makes re-sell value peculiar also.  

[McMooney]

you guys want to hear the most F'd up maintenance story?

Last May, I took my Jeep Grand Cherokee to a Jeep dealership in Katy Tx off of I-10, to have the air suspension fixed.

so 3 weeks in i get a call, compressor is out and they hve to replace it before diagnosing anything else.  I ask, can you not pressurize the vehicle from another source to finish diagnostics? No, they have no knowledge of how that can be done?  send them 3000$ so they can proceed.

2 weeks later  they call  saying bring us another another 4 or 5k, to replace the driver side airshock.  WTH,  I say to send me everything in writing i need to see numbers, this seems just wrong.  so they send a break down something like 2700$ for a shock and the rest labor.  floored.  I call THAT dealerships parts department and ask the price and before i can even ask for a discount, i'm told,  standard price is 1900$.  ????.  I then call my service rep and ask, why charge me 800$ over the retail price, he promptly lowers offers to lower the price.  ok so now i'm upset!!!  A quick interweb search shows i get can the oem part for 1300$ or 3rd party for 800$.  Purchased the 3rd party part had the dealership install and after about 2 weeks i paid and went home.  Oh yeah the price of the 3rd party compressor was only 300+$ instead of the 1800+ they charged for the oem part.  feel violated.   3rd party is Arnott btw, very reputable.

 

so it would be bad if that was the worst but unfortunately, just the start.

 

I pull into the driveway thinking I will, "NEVER BUY ANOTHER JEEP PRODUCT in LIFE" when the CFO starts frantically waving and pointing.  I get out to ask Mrs. CFO the issue, she just point and the car and says WTF, IS IT SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE THAT???  i look at the car, all the trim, the under belly shield and the front bumper are just barely attached to the car.

THIS F"ing maintenace shop failed to install any and all fastener, screw,bolt, clips anything at all in the car.  I take it back mad but thinking these things happen.

Really bad BUT not the end.

they take the car in and after an hour or so bring it back with the clips in the trim and the undercarriage cover in place, i take the car home, pissed but what cn you do, right???

a day or two later while driving I hear scraping coming from under the car and promptly pull into a neighborhood shop to get this sorted.    within 1 minute of putting the car on the rack, they run  and tell me how all the bolts under the car are missing, the cover was just a symptom.

frustrated, I call Chrysler corporate almost in tears hoping at-least to be able to vent but unfortunately all I got was the opportunity to leave a voicemail.  

Beyond pissed now, probably on the edge of a breakdown.  that call was on Friday late afternoon btw.

Monday morning 0800 sharp, Chrysler/Jeep returns my call, omg again floored, had no clue someone would actually listen.  A friendly lady ask me the details then says, we got you, we'll talk to the dealership, take the car back monday.

Monday, i return to the dealership with the car hoping to finally get this sorted BUT that wasn't what the dealership had in mind.

the maintenance manager proceeded to accuse me of hitting something and saying it's not their fault, blah blah blah, i show him the pictures, the text messages the emails, the continues to gaslight me.  I lose it, i'm cussing at the guy asking very simply,  why can i not have my car back in at a min,  the state i gave it to you? 

Interweb, i swear this is the only time Mrs. CFO has ever had to get between me and another human being.

And to top it off, the suspension is STILL broken.  Oh yeah on the way out the dealer ask if i want to schedule the car for it's recalls, WTF

 

 

 

[McMooney]

Sorry for the incoherent rantings, 

Just realized i'm still extremly angry.

[MoonFlyer68]

One thing I would like to see changed because it just drives me nuts is the rules for software updates. As pilots we can load databases on a USB thumb drive and be trusted to update our GPS units. For some reason that escapes me, I can't load a software update without an A&P sign-off. Literally all you do is put the drive in the GPS, press the button to install new software, and then wait 30 minutes until it either says "update complete" or "update failed".

Please if the FAA is listening, add software updates to the list of approved pilot maintenance.

[A64Pilot]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Yes, Owner Maintenance category is a one way trip, and because there is no FAA equivalent, a Canadian Owner Maintenance can’t fly in US airspace.

Does it hurt resale? What about insurance?

Just curious, but this is I think maybe one of those be careful what you ask for, owner maintained that is

[McMooney]

after the amount i've burned on maintenance,  be hard to still not come out ahead

 

[cliffy]

Talked with a shop manager the other day who hired 3 A&Ps Fired 2 because they couldn't spell or write grammatically correct sentences in log books.

A local shop just hired a new A&P with no tools, Has to use the manager's tool box. Can't be left alone to do the work. Has to be supervised on every job. 

My Doc hired 2 successive vampires' (phlebotomists) and fired them because the first couldn't spell and the second not only couldn't spell but used white out on medical charts!

At one A&P school airline agents are on hand at every graduation offering $35 - $50/hr to new A&P grads right now.   At $35/hr that's $5600/ month $67.200/yr right out of school  No GA shop can match it. 

I recently had one shop miss installing cowling screws at the break line at the guppy mouth. Another used plain PK sheet metal screws in the cowling instead of the supplied Type B Tinnerman screws

Sometimes you just have to shake your head in dismay  

[MB65E]

As an IA and ATP I understand the complaint. However, removing maintenance requirements on aircraft is not going to make them safer. I would recommend obtaining an A&P certificate to any owner. There was an Alaska comment. Most pilots in Alaska I believe are A&Ps. Or at least the average is greater.  
I tried not to comment, but complaining about poor maintenance on a form is not going to solve your problem. Maintainers leave the field because other fields pay more and have less liability. Those that are still left in maintenance I feel truly love aviation. I’ve been asked by several to open my own shop. Why? 
Love the one you’re with!

-Matt

[RoundTwo]

4 hours ago, MB65E said:

As an IA and ATP I understand the complaint. However, removing maintenance requirements on aircraft is not going to make them safer. I would recommend obtaining an A&P certificate to any owner. There was an Alaska comment. Most pilots in Alaska I believe are A&Ps. Or at least the average is greater.  
I tried not to comment, but complaining about poor maintenance on a form is not going to solve your problem. Maintainers leave the field because other fields pay more and have less liability. Those that are still left in maintenance I feel truly love aviation. I’ve been asked by several to open my own shop. Why? 
Love the one you’re with!

-Matt

I have a great IA that I work with and he knows my abilities and limitations. He suggested I go to the FSDO and apply for certification. I have ZERO formal training, just 50+ years of working on all of my own stuff from bicycles to dump trucks and just about everything in between.

Is there any realistic chance that something like this would have any chance of being successful, or even just helpful, for a DIY wrench?

Chuck

[ta2too]

One day I walked into the maintenance shop run by a large FBO where I used to be based. One of the better mechanics on the staff was loading his tools and rollaway on to a pickup truck. When I asked where he was going, and he told me the local Ford dealer. He went on to say that there was considerably more money working on cars and trucks rather than planes. 

[jetdriven]

There probably is. But everything I have had done at a dealer was so bad, it had to be redone. My client just had his engine in his TDI Golf fall dowm onto the cross member. The local shop found out that when they replaced the water pump under warranty last year, they only hand tightened the bolts that hold the motor mount bracket to the front of the block, and they all sheared off. 250$ an hour.  cost hos 2500$ to fix. The dealer wont make it right.

[ta2too]

7 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

There probably is. But everything I have had done at a dealer was so bad, it had to be redone. My client just had his engine in his TDI Golf fall dowm onto the cross member. The local shop found out that when they replaced the water pump under warranty last year, they only hand tightened the bolts that hold the motor mount bracket to the front of the block, and they all sheared off. 250$ an hour.  cost hos 2500$ to fix. The dealer wont make it right.

I totally agree with you. Don't ask me why!!!

[A64Pilot]

2 hours ago, RoundTwo said:

I have a great IA that I work with and he knows my abilities and limitations. He suggested I go to the FSDO and apply for certification. I have ZERO formal training, just 50+ years of working on all of my own stuff from bicycles to dump trucks and just about everything in between.

Is there any realistic chance that something like this would have any chance of being successful, or even just helpful, for a DIY wrench?

Chuck

It’s not that uncommon, but it’s way more common in smaller towns, not even cities. 

Usually or often you know the IA because you go to church with them or hunt and fish with them or maybe just over time you get to know them, often one man operating sometimes working for the town that owns the airport. Often starts when you need say a vacuum pump replaced or exhaust or other easily inspected item but they are in the middle of an Annual and just can’t break free, so he says you replace it and I’ll inspect and sign it off, you do they job correctly and it builds his confidence in your abilities.

I don’t do it that often, but I’ve never been paid as an A&P / IA, I help people occasionally but don’t go out of my way seeking them.

In truth most don’t want any help, they just do the work and don’t put anything in the books. Last week as we were all getting ready to fly to breakfast a neighbor’s 182 had a dead battery, stone dead, so I asked about it. It was an Odyssey battery. I really very politely told him that I didn’t think that battery was authorized in a 182, he got nasty saying it’s a PMA battery and therefore allowed. He didn’t understand or more likely doesn’t want to know what PMA means, because the truth doesn’t support him doing what he wants.

I just let it go, I tried to help but he wasn’t having any of it.

He’s thinking I’m saving some money, but he’s invalidated his insurance, because his airplane isn’t airworthy. Is the cheaper battery worth that?

 

Edited June 27, 2023 by A64Pilot

[Austintatious]

On 6/26/2023 at 4:59 AM, MBDiagMan said:

Are you saying that after maintenance, you did not look around under the cowl and do a quick flight around the patch before taking off for a distant destination or did I miss something?

I wanted to address this...   That is correct, I did not.  Reason being that it was a changing of a Vacuum pump and the shop ran the aircraft after changing it.   So yes I trusted they had done the job properly. 

I get your point, don't trust the mechanics, and I agree with you... your point is also my point, If I cannot trust the Certified A&P's to do a simple job and hand me back the aircraft without a screw up like this... why do I need them in the first place?   If there is a need for me to double check their work via testing to make sure it was done properly, then why cant I just double check my own work?

 

[Austintatious]

On 6/26/2023 at 10:17 AM, LANCECASPER said:

I'm very cautious after maintenance has been done.

It is easy to justify now that aborting take-off may have been more dangerous, and that coming back to the field wouldn't have been safer than continuing, but in making those decisions you are ignoring what your airplane is trying to tell you at that moment. In many crash reports you read that the pilot had some indication that something wasn't right and continued on. I'm glad it worked out for you, but the minute I would have felt resistance in the throttle, I'd be back to idle and taxiing back to maintenance, whether I was pressed for time or not. You do not want a jammed throttle when you're trying to add a little power on final to make the airport. Time to spare - go by air. I'd much rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air than the other way around.

Thank you for sharing it with us - I learn something every day on here.

Another post I want to address. 

I am not post hoc rationalizing continuing the take off... Not at all, I made that go decision in the moment given my situation and I stand by it, MAYBE I am wrong, but I stand by it.   Aborted takeoffs at high speed are quite dangerous.  It is easy for you to say you would have aborted when you felt a throttle resistance... are you certain that is the case had you been  going 80 knots,  starting to fly and feel something only slightly amiss yet you have made your power target?  How many times have you practiced aborting a takeoff after reaching flying speed?   Remember, I was slowly feathering in the power and only started to feel something amiss about .5 inches prior to my power target and was in the process of getting airborn.  This aircraft is a Rocket and even at 34" it accelerates very quickly.

Arguably the larger mistake on my part, which I admit to and will change, is the super slow application of T/O power to a partial power setting.  If I had taken the runway and more quickly increased to FULL power, I would have felt the problem at a slower speed and likely would have seen an abort as the best option. 

As far as continuing on... After getting up to altitude (still in glide rang of field) I exercised the throttle and  It moved freely up to about 34.5 inches and down a few inches, so I knew it wasn't stuck. Could it have stuck? Possibly, You have to understand,  I move the throttle very very little during flight in this aircraft.  So, if the situation was one where a stuck throttle was a possibility or inevitability , it was merely a matter of which airport it was going to happen at.  I had to move the throttle the same amount to return to the field or to land at my destination and was risking a stuck throttle at either.  IOW, I did not increase the risk of a stuck throttle by continuing on.

I do appreciate the constructive criticism though... as pointed out, I don't hold out that I did nothing wrong... I certainly should not have assumed that the shop did their job. And by doing a slow throttle increase to partial power I made it so that I didn't discover a problem until high speed.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Austintatious

[Austintatious]

4 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

It’s not that uncommon, but it’s way more common in smaller towns, not even cities. 

Usually or often you know the IA because you go to church with them or hunt and fish with them or maybe just over time you get to know them, often one man operating sometimes working for the town that owns the airport. Often starts when you need say a vacuum pump replaced or exhaust or other easily inspected item but they are in the middle of an Annual and just can’t break free, so he says you replace it and I’ll inspect and sign it off, you do they job correctly and it builds his confidence in your abilities.

I don’t do it that often, but I’ve never been paid as an A&P / IA, I help people occasionally but don’t go out of my way seeking them.

In truth most don’t want any help, they just do the work and don’t put anything in the books. Last week as we were all getting ready to fly to breakfast a neighbor’s 182 had a dead battery, stone dead, so I asked about it. It was an Odyssey battery. I really very politely told him that I didn’t think that battery was authorized in a 182, he got nasty saying it’s a PMA battery and therefore allowed. He didn’t understand or more likely doesn’t want to know what PMA means, because the truth doesn’t support him doing what he wants.

I just let it go, I tried to help but he wasn’t having any of it.

He’s thinking I’m saving some money, but he’s invalidated his insurance, because his airplane isn’t airworthy. Is the cheaper battery worth that?

 

Good post...

You are right, if he had an accident that was caused by the wrong battery being in the aircraft, then yea insurance probably wouldn't pay...  But insurance companies dont get to not pay out because they find something technically wrong elsewhere... And isn't that a good thing?  can you imagine a world where you have a car accident and the company denies your claim because your license plate light was burned out ?

[A64Pilot]

In Military accident investigation we call discrepancies that weren’t the direct cause of the accident, present but not contributing. They wrre considered important because especially if there were a couple they speak to the quality of maintenance.

So for instance if this 182 broke a crankshaft and went down in a housing area and did a lot of collateral damage or if there was a big lawsuit it’s obvious that the battery didn’t contribute to the accident, or at least in my opinion it would be very difficult to attribute a broken crank to a battery.

First I have to acknowledge that thankfully I’m no insurance expert, but in my insurance policy there is a statement to the effect that if the aircraft isn’t airworthy, the insurance isn’t in effect, I can’t quote chapt and verse but I know for my insurance to be in effect I have to maintain airworthiness. Unapproved parts on an airplane render it unairworthy. Let me be a little more concise, whenever there is a TSO for a part, and the replacement isn’t manufactured to that TSO and the part is critical to the operation of the aircraft as a battery is, then the aircraft isn’t airworthy.

So in my opinion in that instance the insurance company can walk leaving you all by yourself, I have no idea if they would but they could just as surely as the aircraft wasn’t in Annual.

There are quite a few ways I believe that you can invalidate insurance, most I think are common sense

[LANCECASPER]

36 minutes ago, Austintatious said:

Another post I want to address. 

I am not post hoc rationalizing continuing the take off... Not at all, I made that go decision in the moment given my situation and I stand by it, MAYBE I am wrong, but I stand by it.   Aborted takeoffs at high speed are quite dangerous.  It is easy for you to say you would have aborted when you felt a throttle resistance... are you certain that is the case had you been  going 80 knots,  starting to fly and feel something only slightly amiss yet you have made your power target?  How many times have you practiced aborting a takeoff after reaching flying speed?   Remember, I was slowly feathering in the power and only started to feel something amiss about .5 inches prior to my power target and was in the process of getting airborn.  This aircraft is a Rocket and even at 34" it accelerates very quickly.

Arguably the larger mistake on my part, which I admit to and will change, is the super slow application of T/O power to a partial power setting.  If I had taken the runway and more quickly increased to FULL power, I would have felt the problem at a slower speed and likely would have seen an abort as the best option. 

As far as continuing on... After getting up to altitude (still in glide rang of field) I exercised the throttle and  It moved freely up to about 34.5 inches and down a few inches, so I knew it wasn't stuck. Could it have stuck? Possibly, You have to understand,  I move the throttle very very little during flight in this aircraft.  So, if the situation was one where a stuck throttle was a possibility or inevitability , it was merely a matter of which airport it was going to happen at.  I had to move the throttle the same amount to return to the field or to land at my destination and was risking a stuck throttle at either.  IOW, I did not increase the risk of a stuck throttle by continuing on.

I do appreciate the constructive criticism though... as pointed out, I don't hold out that I did nothing wrong... I certainly should not have assumed that the shop did their job. And by doing a slow throttle increase to partial power I made it so that I didn't discover a problem until high speed.

Thanks for the reply.

I have flown with a couple pilots who would very slowly advance throttle once we entered the runway and take off with partial power, one of whom was screwing in a vernier throttle. It was hard to sit in the right seat and watch them do that - it seemed like we were close to the point of no return by the time we were getting close to full throttle.

It's good that you are re-thinking partial power take-offs. Six of the seven Mooneys I've had have been turbo-charged and the other one was a 310hp Ovation. The only Mooney that I had which was touchy on over-boosting was the 231, the others have not been.  I never shove the throttle in, but I advance it to full power as smoothly and quickly as I can so that I'm at full power, so by the time I'm 1/2 way down the runway I can make a go/no-go decision. I have never seen a need for a partial power take-off in a single engine piston airplane. When I was a partner in a Piper Meridian (turbine) in cold weather you had to watch so that you didn't over-torque it.

As far as continuing on, a throttle that isn't moving the way you expect it to move may just be a symptom of something else. It may very well move freely to 34.5 inches of MP now, but t's impossible to know if theres even a nut holding the cable on the throttle at that point without taking a look. If something doesn't feel right I wouldn't assume anything at that point other than that I need to look under the cowl and see what's going on. Since I can't do that in the air, I need to look at it on the ground. Since the airport I just took off from is the closest and there's a shop there that has tools, and maybe a little explaining to do, let's go back there. When I fly I make sure I never have to been at my destination, even though I want to be there. The earth will still keep spinning even if I have to spend the night somewhere other than my destination.

Again, I'm glad everything worked out well for you. But with all respect, you're still justifying, and in almost every accident situation that's the attitude that got them where they ended up. None of us have ever made a perfect flight and I've shared some things I've done on here that I never want to do again. Thanks again for sharing what you did and for being receptive to all of the replies that you're getting.