Carbon Monoxide incident - Mooney No longer Stranded

[Will.iam]

On 7/30/2022 at 12:04 AM, JohnB said:

I now have two digital readout CO detectors in my plane and looking to replace one, as my original one only goes up to 50ppm. Looking for another CO detector that displays up to 1,000+ ppm (these are hard to find) as based on CO toxicity charts (one attached), I would do drastically different things depending on the level, i.e. < 50ppm,  I might just fly home. With increasingly higher levels, I would think about landing at nearest field with services, then nearest field, then nearest flat land based on the number. If I could find one that would go higher, for example if I ever saw a reading of 3,000 (egads) I would immediately shut down engine without any thinking about it and glide where I could, and I might be thinking that for readings over 1,000 as well. That's also why I think two are good to have as my first reaction was that there might be something wrong with the monitor but since it read over 50, wasn't going to take a chance..

Here is a chart of levels of CO toxicity, and time to unconsciousness and death which I found educational and helped me figure out what I would probably do based on a ppm number.

Instead of just shutting down the engine and gliding all the way in. I thunk i would just pull the mixture to idle cutoff thus stopping the CO. Once you are getting ready to land if there is a field you just can’t quite make or better yet runway, you could increase the mixture just enough to give you distance to make a better field landing. I. E. I would not accept putting down in trees or buildings just because i might inhale some more CO.  I can hold my breath for 60 secs, thats alot of added thrust time i could use to turn a marginal landing site to a great one. 
 

reminds me of the lunar landing game that you only had a very finite amount of rocket fuel to control your speed and landing site. 

[carusoam]

2 hours ago, Will.iam said:

Doesn’t mooney summit have a sensorcon  tester/calibration unit that they will check and calibrate your sensorcon if you bring it? I’m coming up on 1.5 years so need to get mine checked. 

@DanM20C may have the answer to that question….

@mike_elliott may know the detail….

Best regards,

-a-

[N201MKTurbo]

On 7/30/2022 at 9:44 PM, Pinecone said:

As mentioned, open outside vents, reduce power, lean VERY aggressively, and LAND NOW.

You forgot to mention to turn off the heater.

Actually, the heater is about the only thing that can produce really high CO amounts. You should turn off all air coming from the engine compartment. This includes outside air from the center console. You should open up the overhead vents, no way for CO to get there. 
 

If you can get the CO readings down and you feel OK, I wouldn’t do anything heroic about landing.

[DanM20C]

14 hours ago, Will.iam said:

Doesn’t mooney summit have a sensorcon  tester/calibration unit that they will check and calibrate your sensorcon if you bring it? I’m coming up on 1.5 years so need to get mine checked. 

The Mooney Summit doesn't have calibration equipment anymore.  Some how it went missing after one Summit.  But I will be bringing mine and I believe @PeytonM will have his equipment also.  So we should have ample ability to calibrate the Sensorcon units.  Sensorcon will also be at airport day so they may be able to calibrate also.  

Cheers,

Dan

[201er]

13 minutes ago, DanM20C said:

The Mooney Summit doesn't have calibration equipment anymore.  Some how it went missing after one Summit.  But I will be bringing mine and I believe @PeytonM will have his equipment also.  So we should have ample ability to calibrate the Sensorcon units.  Sensorcon will also be at airport day so they may be able to calibrate also.  

Cheers,

Dan

Dan, I want you to personally blow my unit for calibration and good luck 

[MikeOH]

18 hours ago, Will.iam said:

reminds me of the lunar landing game that you only had a very finite amount of rocket fuel to control your speed and landing site. 

OMG! First computer game I ever played, circa 1972.

[amillet]

4 hours ago, MikeOH said:

OMG! First computer game I ever played, circa 1972.

You must be too young to remember Pong

[Hank]

24 minutes ago, amillet said:

You must be too young to remember Pong

I remember Pong from '76 or '77, a quarter a game. Used to play Lunar Lander on a calculator in late 70s and early 80s.

[MikeOH]

18 minutes ago, amillet said:

You must be too young to remember Pong

Nah, Pong was the first VIDEO game I played. No computer in those; all TTL.

And, Pong came out in Nov ‘72. So, yeah, I’m old

[N201MKTurbo]

On 8/12/2022 at 5:22 PM, MikeOH said:

Nah, Pong was the first VIDEO game I played. No computer in those; all TTL.

And, Pong came out in Nov ‘72. So, yeah, I’m old

I worked at a pizza parlor in 73. I was the first to discover that if you held a cheese shaker and shuffled your feet across the carpet and touched the cheese shaker to the coin box you got a free game. We played that thing for hours after closing. (We had beer taps and the boss already went home….) 

[MikeOH]

Just now, N201MKTurbo said:

I worked at a pizza parlor in 73. I was the first to discover that if you held a cheese shaker and shuffled your feet across the carpet and touched the cheese shaker to the coin box you got a free game. We played that thing for hours after closing. (We had beer taps and the boss already went home….) 

LOL!  We built little "buzz boxes" with a 9V battery to do the same...the Pong reset circuit was apparently pretty sensitive.  Never paid for a game.  I'm pretty sure the statute of limitations has run out!

[Rotorhead]

So, what would you consider at or above normal CO levels in cruise? Obviously aiming for 0. Would you consider landing at 5ppm, 15ppm, 50ppm? 

Genuine question I haven't been able to figure out yet, does the affect of CO change with altitude? Already breathing in less O2 and slightly more CO = a higher concentration? Or does the CO monitor already take into account the air it's 'sniffing' and the ppm you're seeing is compared to the normal air mixture at say sea level?

-KC 

[N201MKTurbo]

3 hours ago, Rotorhead said:

So, what would you consider at or above normal CO levels in cruise? Obviously aiming for 0. Would you consider landing at 5ppm, 15ppm, 50ppm? 

Genuine question I haven't been able to figure out yet, does the affect of CO change with altitude? Already breathing in less O2 and slightly more CO = a higher concentration? Or does the CO monitor already take into account the air it's 'sniffing' and the ppm you're seeing is compared to the normal air mixture at say sea level?

-KC 

My experience with CO happened before there were the electronic monitors, but you should land when you feel crappy and have a splitting headache. 
 

The first thing I would do is try to get the CO reading down. Turn off the heater and open the different air vents to see if you can get it down. If you can’t and it’s high, like over 100 I would land ASAP. Not so much for the CO but because of what is causing the CO. Almost certainly a cracked exhaust system. 
 

Once you know you are being exposed to CO, the symptoms are not subtle, but you can still fly with a splitting headache and nausea, it just isn’t fun. My point is, you won’t just become suddenly unconscious with a low level CO exposure, you will start feeling really crappy first.

[Pinecone]

10 hours ago, Rotorhead said:

So, what would you consider at or above normal CO levels in cruise? Obviously aiming for 0. Would you consider landing at 5ppm, 15ppm, 50ppm? 

Genuine question I haven't been able to figure out yet, does the affect of CO change with altitude? Already breathing in less O2 and slightly more CO = a higher concentration? Or does the CO monitor already take into account the air it's 'sniffing' and the ppm you're seeing is compared to the normal air mixture at say sea level?

-KC 

Discussed on page 2 of this thread.

Yes, hemoglobin has a high affinity for CO than O2.  Reduce the O2 and it makes things worse.

[carusoam]

In other words…

CO is also accumulating in the body… it doesn’t go away for hours…

So… each breath more CO comes in, but has a hard time ever leaving… for hours…

 

Fortunately…

If we have a higher than normal CO level… we have a bunch of ideas at how to find the source…

Find the source, and stop the CO from entering the cabin…

 

In other news… I got to see Dan this weekend at Mooney Summit!  
 

He looks great!
 

Best regards,

-a-

[N201MKTurbo]

2 hours ago, carusoam said:

In other words…

CO is also accumulating in the body… it doesn’t go away for hours…

When I got poisoned, it didn’t go away for three days.

[DonMuncy]

A question for those of you who have Sensorcons. I have had a "residental" CO unit mounted on the plate covering the cabin light on the pilot's side. I am about to switch to a Sensorcon, and contemplating a mounting location. Is the alert from the Sensorcon loud enough to hear that close to my head, with ANR headsets. That location is easy enough to see, but not in my direct line of sight. 

[larryb]

Recently I’ve seen a couple spurious in flight readings around 40. They would gradually go down after a few minutes. My unit was 2 years old. Then the battery died and the unit displayed EOL. Since a calibration kit is more expensive than a new unit I just bought a new unit. The black one is old with a new battery and the blue one is new. Note that the readings are different while In my house with no CO sources present. I no longer trust the old one. No more spurious readings in the plane with the new one.

[larryb]

I can hear the sensorcon in flight with Bose headsets. But it’s faint and takes me a min to identify the source of the beep.

[ilovecornfields]

17 minutes ago, larryb said:

Recently I’ve seen a couple spurious in flight readings around 40. They would gradually go down after a few minutes. My unit was 2 years old. Then the battery died and the unit displayed EOL. Since a calibration kit is more expensive than a new unit I just bought a new unit. The black one is old with a new battery and the blue one is new. Note that the readings are different while In my house with no CO sources present. I no longer trust the old one. No more spurious readings in the plane with the new one.

My old sensorcon did the same thing. Seemed to function better as a thermometer than CO meter. Fortunately I have two other ones in the cockpit.

i like the idea of the Lightspeed headset with the CO meter. I bet you hear that one with the ANR on!

[Rick Junkin]

1 hour ago, DonMuncy said:

A question for those of you who have Sensorcons. I have had a "residental" CO unit mounted on the plate covering the cabin light on the pilot's side. I am about to switch to a Sensorcon, and contemplating a mounting location. Is the alert from the Sensorcon loud enough to hear that close to my head, with ANR headsets. That location is easy enough to see, but not in my direct line of sight. 

@DonMuncy I clip my Sensorcon Pro in the middle of my chest on the shoulder strap of my seat belt. I can both hear the alarm and feel the vibration when it alarms while wearing Bose A20s.

Cheers,
Rick

[EricJ]

32 minutes ago, larryb said:

I can hear the sensorcon in flight with Bose headsets. But it’s faint and takes me a min to identify the source of the beep.

Same here.   It's alarmed a few times and I've heard it through my Zulu 3.   Definitely enough to hear, but usually takes me a second to figure out what it is.   The beeper on my ACK ELT alert is the same way;  I can hear it, but I may not know what it is immediately.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

I was waiting to take off today and the run up area was jammed and backed up onto the taxiway. The plane in front of me did his run up. 
 

My sensorcon read 55.  As soon as he was able to move away from me it went back to zero.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, larryb said:

Recently I’ve seen a couple spurious in flight readings around 40. They would gradually go down after a few minutes. My unit was 2 years old. Then the battery died and the unit displayed EOL. Since a calibration kit is more expensive than a new unit I just bought a new unit. The black one is old with a new battery and the blue one is new. Note that the readings are different while In my house with no CO sources present. I no longer trust the old one. No more spurious readings in the plane with the new one.

The Sensorcons should be calibrated periodically. Just had mine redone at The Mooney Summit (thanks, Dan!). Last time was probably 3 years ago; just sitting around, I've never seen a reading other than 0. But I felt better after checking around my gas stove, the gas logs in the fireplace, and running the heater in my old truck (it was briefly 5 right after starting on a cold day and turning the heat on high, but after just just few seconds it fell to 0).

With a fresh calibration,  it will function like a new one. 

[larryb]

I am skeptical that a fresh calibration will make my 2 year old unit function like new. The pic I showed of 17ppm vs. 0 is just a moment in time. Sometimes they both read 0.  It seems like the old one is unstable compared to the new one.  I have both in the plane now and will see how they compare long-term.