Pre-Buy Inspections and Mechanic Selection

[Becca]

There’s apparently quite a vocal discussion going on the Mooney Pilots Facebook group regarding taking an airplane off-field for a pre-purchase inspection. I have always been of the opinion this is necessary for a couple reasons - one for the quality of the inspection and one pragmatic.

1. Getting an independent mechanic to look at the plane is important.  An on field or local mechanic may have previously worked on the plane or might have a relationship with the Seller.

2. How is an off field mechanic plausibly able to do a full inspection in the sellers’ hangar?  The seller is unlikely to have all the necessary tools available (eg jacks, speciality tools, borescope, etc.). Not to mention many airports now have restrictions about unapproved or non local mechanics working on their fields. (And this doesn’t even cover the additional travel cost and expense associated with paying a mechanic to travel to a pre buy location. Especially since travel time could leave less than a full day available to do the inspection or require an over night.)

To me, this is all obvious that a pre buy should be permitted a reasonable distance away from the home field (say up to a 100-200 miles in a Mooney.) But apparently many people are commenting on Facebook that they would never let their airplane out of their hangar for an inspection, out of worry of losing control over the plane with an unknown mechanic.  Does this happen? Do mechanics or buyers steal planes or hold them hostage as part of the purchase process - is this something a seller should worry about “losing control of their plane before sale”?  (I find it a weird worry considering how many airports I’ve parked my plane at overnight away from my home field.). Would you walk if you couldn’t move plane for a pre buy?  Would you refuse to sell to someone who wants to take your plane off field for a pre buy?  I know Saavy advises customers to walk away from deals if the Seller doesn’t let them relocate the plane to an independent mechanic for pre buy. 

what do you think?

Edited May 17, 2022 by Becca

[Sabremech]

Hi Becca,

I was one of those people who wasn’t going to let my airplane go out of my hangar and to an unknown shop. I was more than willing to have the airplane opened up for inspection by the buyers mechanic. I had all the tools in my hangar to do all that needed to be done.

I know that I shortened the buyers list by making that known but was ok with it. I was going to be certain that the airplane was reassembled correctly after the pre buy and not hurriedly put back together by someone I didn’t know. It was about the details and it’s safe to say, not all shops let alone an MSC pay attention to details. 
 

Maybe Hammdo will comment on this thread from the buyers perspective of how the sale went and the product he ended up with.

David

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Becca said:

There’s apparently quite a vocal discussion going on the Mooney Pilots Facebook group regarding taking an airplane off-field for a pre-purchase inspection. I have always been of the opinion this is necessary for a couple reasons - one for the quality of the inspection and one pragmatic.

1. Getting an independent mechanic to look at the plane is important.  An on field or local mechanic may have previously worked on the plane or might have a relationship with the Seller.

2. How is an off field mechanic plausibly able to do a full inspection in the sellers’ hangar?  The seller is unlikely to have all the necessary tools available (eg jacks, speciality tools, borescope, etc.). Not to mention many airports now have restrictions about unapproved or non local mechanics working on their fields. (And this doesn’t even cover the additional travel cost and expense associated with paying a mechanic to travel to a pre buy location. Especially since travel time could leave less than a full day available to do the inspection or require an over night.)

To me, this is all obvious that a pre buy should be permitted a reasonable distance away from the home field (say up to a 100-200 miles in a Mooney.) But apparently many people are commenting on Facebook that they would never let their airplane out of their hangar for an inspection, out of worry of losing control over the plane with an unknown mechanic.  Does this happen? Do mechanics or buyers steal planes or hold them hostage as part of the purchase process - is this something a seller should worry about “losing control of their plane before sale”?  (I find it a weird worry considering how many airports I’ve parked my plane at overnight away from my home field.). Would you walk if you couldn’t move plane for a pre buy?  Would you refuse to sell to someone who wants to take your plane off field for a pre buy?  I know Saavy advises customers to walk away from deals if the Seller doesn’t let them relocate the plane to an independent mechanic for pre buy. 

what do you think?

On airplanes I've sold, after a contract is signed and a deposit made, I'll deliver the airplane and buyer covers expenses to the shop and back. I've never had an airplane I've sold not pass pre-buy so I'll gladly, within reason, take it where they want it inspected. Don Maxwell told me when I sold N40FM (Encore) that it's the first pre-buy he had done where he couldn't find a squawk. When I sold N134JF (Bravo) in November the pre-buy in FL didn't reveal any squawks. Either way my expenses there and back were covered. It's been my experience that if you're confident in the airplane you're selling you want it to go to a shop for a pre-buy that has seen everything - they will recognize it as a well-maintained airplane right off the bat. Sometimes if the seller isn't so confident in the airplane they're selling they'll want it to stay on the field. Notice though that it was me taking it for the pre-buy and staying there for the results, not me handing the keys to someone else to take it for the pre-buy.

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, Becca said:

Would you walk if you couldn’t move plane for a pre buy?

1.  I have walked when the seller said "no off-field pre-buy".  Can't say I have had the best pre-buy experiences, but I wouldn't buy an airplane without one.
2.  In my opinion, the seller should re-position the airplane to the pre-buy site.  Clearly, there are circumstances that would make this difficult or impossible, but that's my default position.

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Becca said:

There’s apparently quite a vocal discussion going on the Mooney Pilots Facebook group regarding taking an airplane off-field for a pre-purchase inspection. I have always been of the opinion this is necessary for a couple reasons - one for the quality of the inspection and one pragmatic.

1. Getting an independent mechanic to look at the plane is important.  An on field or local mechanic may have previously worked on the plane or might have a relationship with the Seller.

2. How is an off field mechanic plausibly able to do a full inspection in the sellers’ hangar?  The seller is unlikely to have all the necessary tools available (eg jacks, speciality tools, borescope, etc.). Not to mention many airports now have restrictions about unapproved or non local mechanics working on their fields. (And this doesn’t even cover the additional travel cost and expense associated with paying a mechanic to travel to a pre buy location. Especially since travel time could leave less than a full day available to do the inspection or require an over night.)

To me, this is all obvious that a pre buy should be permitted a reasonable distance away from the home field (say up to a 100-200 miles in a Mooney.) But apparently many people are commenting on Facebook that they would never let their airplane out of their hangar for an inspection, out of worry of losing control over the plane with an unknown mechanic.  Does this happen? Do mechanics or buyers steal planes or hold them hostage as part of the purchase process - is this something a seller should worry about “losing control of their plane before sale”?  (I find it a weird worry considering how many airports I’ve parked my plane at overnight away from my home field.). Would you walk if you couldn’t move plane for a pre buy?  Would you refuse to sell to someone who wants to take your plane off field for a pre buy?  I know Saavy advises customers to walk away from deals if the Seller doesn’t let them relocate the plane to an independent mechanic for pre buy. 

what do you think?

I can understand sellers who don't want the airplane moved, because it does add some risk for the seller.    A mechanic ought to know what tools he'll need to perform a decent pre-buy, and if you find a mechanic that is mobile with the appropriate tools it should be practical to get a pre-buy done in the seller's hangar.    If the seller insists on constantly looking over the pre-buy mechanic's shoulder, that's bad, and there should be agreement that he'll be left alone to do the inspection.

Sometimes it's hard to get those stars to align, but sometimes it's doable.   I wouldn't pass on something just because a seller insists on an in-place pre-buy. 

[jetdriven]

What is the in-place part of the prebuy is the seller’s a&p shop? 

[Sabremech]

2 hours ago, jetdriven said:

What is the in-place part of the prebuy is the seller’s a&p shop? 

Not quite understanding what your asking here? 

[Becca]

41 minutes ago, Sabremech said:

Not quite understanding what your asking here? 

Oh… so the precipitating incident to this conversation was a hypothetical scenario where the seller has his plane apart for annual in his own mechanics’ shop.  So the pre buy would occur in the seller’s mechanics shop not the seller’s personal hangar.  (presumably with the potential that the sellers mechanic would be breathing over the shoulder of the buyer mechanic while conducting the pre buy). 
 

In my OP, though, I was more interested hearing in general attitudes about relocating an airplane to a different airport for a pre buy than this specific circumstance.  Or whether any one has examples of actual bad behavior from buyers or pre buy mechanics that substantiate concerns about not relocating a plane.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Becca

[Guest]

The issue I see with a remote PPI is that all of the good shops are busy with their existing clients. Why would a shop owner abandon his current client and waste two days traveling across the country to complete a PPI remotely.  I’ve been asked and normally decline.

Clarence 

[Becca]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

The issue I see with a remote PPI is that all of the good shops are busy with their existing clients. Why would a shop owner abandon his current client and waste two days traveling across the country to complete a PPI remotely.  I’ve been asked and normally decline.

Clarence 

Byron’s done it off and on.  It always costs the client a lot of money in travel time - far more than would be saved if (as some seller’s have proposed) “well the plane is already opened up for annual, so there’s some efficiency, just look it over in my mechanic’s shop.”  FWIW, despite charging for travel I’m with you, he doesn’t charge enough to make it really worth the time commitment even when it’s relatively local and he can use our Mooney to get there.  Also lots of buyers have the expectation you can do it in 1 day, and when you add the morning and evening round trip it gets to be an absurdity.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Becca

[carusoam]

When the plane costs as much as a car…. The PPI is going to be done with tight cost controls… traveling distance won’t be very far…

When the plane costs as much as a house… the financial risk is much greater…. Taking it to the right source is more important…

Either way… the seller would like a one-way trip… the buyer is paying for it…

Not all PPIs are the same…

Not all sellers are the same… some are very well known entities around MS…

Not all buyers are the same… some are very well known around MS…

Not all planes are the same… some are less likely to have hidden AW issues to arise in a PPI….

List your risks… then decide your needs….

Nothing like discovering a real AW issue far from home…

Best regards,

-a-

[Pinecone]

How long is a reasonable pre-buy on a Mooney?

A few hours?  A day?  Two days?  More?

[Joshua Blackh4t]

As carusoam mentioned, depends on the cost.

Personally I bought my E cheaply, on the other side of the country and during covid, so I was happy just talking to the regular mechanic. Sure I was taking a risk, but it wasn't too major.

When a friend sold his Cessna 150, we had buyers turn up and start pulling off inspection panels and then not buying it despite not finding anything. Not all were put back properly either. 

So I wouldn't let anyone else get too carried away. Maybe with a non-refundable deposit. 

As for off-field, only if I fly it. I might do it cheaply. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Pinecone said:

How long is a reasonable pre-buy on a Mooney?

A few hours?  A day?  Two days?  More?

Anywhere from hours to several days, much depends which model and on the condition of the plane and it’s paperwork and log books.  

Owners who don’t keep record in good order cost the buyer time in sorting it all out.  Neat orderly log books, a complete list  of AD compliance with date, time and method of compliance, STC’s and 337’s organized together in order by date, weight an balance reports in proper order all make the PPI easier.  Sorting this stuff out takes time and shouldn’t be the buyers responsibility.

A piece of junk can be spotted quickly and the inspection can be stopped almost immediately.  Opening up an older model completely for inspection can take a day, there are around 1,000 screws to remove and reinstall.  Newer models take less time, cowls are quicker to remove, the composite belly is quick to removed and there are fewer removable inspection panels on the wings.

Clarence

[ArtVandelay]

Not wanting to fly a plane from home airport is a red flag.

Unless seller authorizes it, a pre buy should not be an inspection, and will not require a log entry. Sellers worry the buyers mechanic will find a “non airworthy “ problem and ground the airplane holding it hostage until the seller pays up.
As a seller I would protect myself by having the mechanic sign a document stating the prebuy is an evaluation, not an inspection, the buyer is responsible for paying and it will be returned to service. I also would provide only an electronic copy of the logs.
Prebuy should be limited to big ticket items, not checking if a light bulb is burned out. The buyer should have already done a flight test; testing avionics, gear, flaps, etc. I also would require the tanks be full to check for leaks. Priority is corrosion problems. The buyer should specify exactly what they want inspected, not give mechanic a free reign to bill hours. And as seller I would want to see what the buyer wants beforehand. For example if the buyer wants to pull a cylinder, I wouldn’t allow that.

[201er]

2 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Sellers worry the buyers mechanic will find a “non airworthy “ problem and ground the airplane holding it hostage until the seller pays up.

This may have been a thing before, but all the shops are so backed up these days, I don't think they're fishing for work.

[KB4]

Only way to ensure some random mechanic that you have no relationship with, and cares nothing about you or the plane doesn’t screw up is YOU standing there watching.  Even an MSC is only as good as their worst mechanic. 

[Mac80]

Seems reasonable fly your plane or request qualified pilot to fly to a known service center I would trust to do my annual or specific repairs needed like tank inspections at buyers expense with a sales agreement.

I have had a broker unwilling to move plane for pre-buy. It is understandable if there is no qualified pilot handy. No easy answer.

 Once Cirrus dealer was down right insulting that I expected an non-interested mechanic for a pre buy. Have not looked at seriously at a Cirrus since.

 

[Aerodon]

I've delivered a plane for an inspection before, I don't think I would do it again.  And I wouldn't expect the seller to deliver a plane off the airfield either.  If I can' find someone there to go do it and if that shortens the list of available planes, then so be it.

Aerodon

 

 

 

[Guest]

So let’s suppose an airplane shows up at a shop for a PPI or what ever you wish to call it.  The shop doing the work discovers a cracked engine mount tube(an older Mooney) The airplane is now legally grounded due to a serious airworthiness defect which is also covered an AD.  How do you suggest this be handled should the deal die?  As a maintainer I’d be writing a letter and have the seller sign and acknowledge receipt of it.  

Suppose it was a cracked wing spar which I have seen twice, I have no method of “grounding the plane other than calling the regulator TC in their case.  Again to protect me, I’d write the same letter. 

If one find a magnet full of camshaft and again the deal dies and there is no record in the log book, the next poor sucker buys the plane with a perfectly clean filter and six months later posts here on Mooneyspace about his engine woes.  

I’ve got an import on the go at the moment on a plane that had a PPI and a fresh Annual inspection just recently by a shop in the US.  The list is growing quite long, today we discovered that the engine mount is heavily corroded and has many areas of damage.  We have to pull the engine and send the mount out for a repair estimated at $5-8000.  The new owner is blaming me because the mount was painted when the new engine was recently installed.

Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

Clarence

[MikeOH]

@M20Doc

What happens if the seller won't sign your letter?  Are you going to hold his aircraft hostage or merely threaten to turn him over to the authorities?  What if he won't let you put any damaging record in his plane's logbook?

Not seeing how you are responsible and 'need to protect yourself' if all you are doing is looking over the plane; it is NOT a formal inspection/annual and you are NOT putting your signature on anything.

To be consistent, in the case of the painted over corrosion on the engine mount, why are you not turning the previous shop into the FAA?  No way that corrosion developed, under the fresh paint, in the short time since the engine replacement.  Why is it only the seller that deserves your 'management'?

Fundamentally, why is it your job to force the seller to be honest; that's on him, NOT you.

 

[Guest]

If the plane leaves with a major known defect and there was an accident, I’d like some proof that the owner was made aware of the issue before departure.  I see it as protecting me from his widow and her lawyer.  
 

 

[Ned Gravel]

4 hours ago, M20Doc said:

So let’s suppose an airplane shows up at a shop for a PPI or what ever you wish to call it.  The shop doing the work discovers a cracked engine mount tube(an older Mooney) The airplane is now legally grounded due to a serious airworthiness defect which is also covered an AD.  How do you suggest this be handled should the deal die?  As a maintainer I’d be writing a letter and have the seller sign and acknowledge receipt of it.  

Suppose it was a cracked wing spar which I have seen twice, I have no method of “grounding the plane other than calling the regulator TC in their case.  Again to protect me, I’d write the same letter. 

If one find a magnet full of camshaft and again the deal dies and there is no record in the log book, the next poor sucker buys the plane with a perfectly clean filter and six months later posts here on Mooneyspace about his engine woes.  

I’ve got an import on the go at the moment on a plane that had a PPI and a fresh Annual inspection just recently by a shop in the US.  The list is growing quite long, today we discovered that the engine mount is heavily corroded and has many areas of damage.  We have to pull the engine and send the mount out for a repair estimated at $5-8000.  The new owner is blaming me because the mount was painted when the new engine was recently installed.

Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

Clarence

That sentiment is exactly why you did my PPI and saved me $14,000 in repair bills.  When the seller showed up to argue, you showed them all the impacted items.  They already knew I was walking because of the results of the PPI.  The fact that they arranged for the required repair, based on the evidence, is a testament to the validity of your findings.

This is also why you do all my annuals.  The cost of conformance in aircraft maintenance is mostly money. The cost of non-conformance is much, much more than money. 

Continue doing please, whether or not some damn you.  More than one life depends on it, mine included.