Prop Strike

[Bentonck]

I have been following the forums, though not as much as usual.  For business and because I got tired of trying to coach everyone through getting in and out of the Mooney and putting on oxygen masks that ended up not being very popular, as well as the fact that our mission is long legged and the Mooney is great for 2 on longer legs but much less for more, I ended up buying a King Air this year.  I was going to keep the Mooney as a weekend/fun plane to use with my wife (who loves it) ... but off I was in the US doing initial training, taking delivery, and working through the logistics of exporting an airplane and my poor Mooney Acclaim was sitting in the hangar alone.  I felt bad for her.  I also have a pilot on my payroll (but unfortunately not my insurance) who had flown with me many times in the Mooney and who I had let land a few times for him to mantain currency.  He is a commercial, 1000+ hour pilot with most of his experience in King Airs and Senecas.  I never liked leaving the plane in the hangar without running engine for more than 2 weeks, so I had him go out and run it up and just get the engine up to temp....

....and then he asked if he could take his wife on a local flight around São Paulo, and I, not wanting to be a jerk, said sure.  I then got in the King Air and shuffled off from Texas down to Florida where I arrived to a flurry of messages and several missed calls from said employee....and a picture of my Mooney with a severely bent prop.  He bounced it and couldn't recover apparently so now my Mooney has been down for a month with the engine getting a full IRAN and my prop being trashed while I am trying to find another...(did anyone know there is a months-long backlog for props??? I didn't) ... 

Anyway, I haven't been posting because every time I think about it I get sick to my stomach but the moral of the story here is, don't let anyone fly your plane if they aren't current and checked out in it.  I considered this guy "checked out" by me because we had flown together multiple occasions and he always had shown himself to be a prudent and capable pilot if not the best stick-and-rudder pilot I ever met.  I never dreamed he would bounce it in instead of going around because we had specifically discussed the need to go around after a bounce on multiple occasions and not try to 'save' it.  I have gone around at least 3 times in the last year after not getting myself into the best position and on at least one of those occasions he was with me....but he wasn't "current" and after the fact my wife was asking when the last time he had flown the Mooney was and I frankly couldn't remember.  I should have just said no and let it go...being a nice guy has no place in aviation when the checkbook is yours.

Before anyone get's onto me about the insurance, I thought about it.  I read the policy, but I was lucky as hell to talk one of the three insurance providers here in Brazil to write me a policy on the King Air with extremely limited twin engine and turbine time and if I claim the insurance it is almost certain I don't get my King Air insurance renewed at the end of the year....same underwriter.  The dude feels terrible and is chasing down everyone trying to get everything fixed, and he's a super nice guy.  I just shouldn't have let him, or me, put ourselves in that position.  Just say no.

[AeroEng]

56 minutes ago, Bentonck said:

I have been following the forums, though not as much as usual.  For business and because I got tired of trying to coach everyone through getting in and out of the Mooney and putting on oxygen masks that ended up not being very popular, as well as the fact that our mission is long legged and the Mooney is great for 2 on longer legs but much less for more, I ended up buying a King Air this year.  I was going to keep the Mooney as a weekend/fun plane to use with my wife (who loves it) ... but off I was in the US doing initial training, taking delivery, and working through the logistics of exporting an airplane and my poor Mooney Acclaim was sitting in the hangar alone.  I felt bad for her.  I also have a pilot on my payroll (but unfortunately not my insurance) who had flown with me many times in the Mooney and who I had let land a few times for him to mantain currency.  He is a commercial, 1000+ hour pilot with most of his experience in King Airs and Senecas.  I never liked leaving the plane in the hangar without running engine for more than 2 weeks, so I had him go out and run it up and just get the engine up to temp....

....and then he asked if he could take his wife on a local flight around São Paulo, and I, not wanting to be a jerk, said sure.  I then got in the King Air and shuffled off from Texas down to Florida where I arrived to a flurry of messages and several missed calls from said employee....and a picture of my Mooney with a severely bent prop.  He bounced it and couldn't recover apparently so now my Mooney has been down for a month with the engine getting a full IRAN and my prop being trashed while I am trying to find another...(did anyone know there is a months-long backlog for props??? I didn't) ... 

Anyway, I haven't been posting because every time I think about it I get sick to my stomach but the moral of the story here is, don't let anyone fly your plane if they aren't current and checked out in it.  I considered this guy "checked out" by me because we had flown together multiple occasions and he always had shown himself to be a prudent and capable pilot if not the best stick-and-rudder pilot I ever met.  I never dreamed he would bounce it in instead of going around because we had specifically discussed the need to go around after a bounce on multiple occasions and not try to 'save' it.  I have gone around at least 3 times in the last year after not getting myself into the best position and on at least one of those occasions he was with me....but he wasn't "current" and after the fact my wife was asking when the last time he had flown the Mooney was and I frankly couldn't remember.  I should have just said no and let it go...being a nice guy has no place in aviation when the checkbook is yours.

Before anyone get's onto me about the insurance, I thought about it.  I read the policy, but I was lucky as hell to talk one of the three insurance providers here in Brazil to write me a policy on the King Air with extremely limited twin engine and turbine time and if I claim the insurance it is almost certain I don't get my King Air insurance renewed at the end of the year....same underwriter.  The dude feels terrible and is chasing down everyone trying to get everything fixed, and he's a super nice guy.  I just shouldn't have let him, or me, put ourselves in that position.  Just say no.

Heart breaking.  At least no one was hurt.  Metal can be repaired/replaced.

[Igor_U]

I'm sorry to hear this... I agree it is sometime you had to say no evening being hard to do so. I am not surprised about backlog on prop. Earlier this year, I was waiting 5 months for the rebuilt engine from Lycoming. Expect the same for engine parts you might need for IRAN. 

 

Where do you keep your plane in San Paulo? Some years ago I spent few mounts working at Embraer in SJC.

Good luck.

[carusoam]

It’s been a decade since my prop got a ground strike…

I didn’t know the guy that hit my prop with the ground….   so… no love loss there…

Continental can complete a reman’d engine in weeks…. Shipped to your shop by the end of the month… (SP will be different I’m sure…)

If you OH the same engine… you can purchase the 310hp STC and have the gov and tach updated…

Hartzell requires a few months to build a TopProp… (2012)

There is also competition with MT…

So call both prop manufacturers.

 

With all the heartache that comes with that….

See if you can end up with a 310hp TN’d IO550 with an MT prop…. Have the FF tuned up to about 30gph….

nothing relieves the stress and anger of somebody bumping your prop on the ground… than coming out ahead with better T/O and climb performance! 

Nothing is free with insurance, because they call that betterment… but, selecting the right rpm while replacing a similar prop doesn’t cost anything extra…

 

When it comes to insurance company policies… and what should be done, or avoided…. We have a guy… find Parker if you have questions….

 

Good luck with both… getting the M20TN back in the air, and getting the transition training done with the KA!

Best regards,

-a-

[EricJ]

Bummer.   I am, however, having a hard time feeling too bad for you flying around in the King Air now.    I hope you understand. 

[StevenL757]

38 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Bummer.   I am, however, having a hard time feeling too bad for you flying around in the King Air now.    I hope you understand. 

You beat me to it.  I was ready to make a comment like, “yeah, how long will it be before I get tired of coaching my pax to put on their O2 masks before I decide to just say, ‘screw it, I’m getting a King Air’”.

Obviously no disrespect to the OP intended.

:-)

[Andy95W]

“Darn, I can’t fly my Mooney Acclaim.  I guess I’ll have to fly the King Air instead.” 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Andy95W

[Bentonck]

1 hour ago, StevenL757 said:

You beat me to it.  I was ready to make a comment like, “yeah, how long will it be before I get tired of coaching my pax to put on their O2 masks before I decide to just say, ‘screw it, I’m getting a King Air’”.

Obviously no disrespect to the OP intended.

:-)

None taken.  I started my own business 8 years ago after 16 years working for a multinational and it finally started paying off to where I could afford to upgrade.  I bought a 1980 F90 so it's not like new iron, it's basically a classic compared to my Mooney that was at least built this century, but you're right.  It is a wonderful experience and there is nothing like the smell of Jet-A in the morning.  I will say this.....the Mooney is a Porsche 911, the King Air is a pickup truck....it get's you where you're going and you can take all your crap but efficiency is NOT it's thing and it flies like a truck.  Very stable and smooth but if you want to turn it around  you need a mile or two....the Mooney is like a fighter plane in comparison.

Point taken though.  My only other comment is that if you have a Garmin autopilot in your newer model Mooney, don't expect the same performance from an early 80s rate based autopilot...hehehe, that has taken some serious getting used to.

Everyone talks about the ramp appeal of a King Air but there are a million King Airs in Brazil, I have one of two Acclaims and EVERYONE wanted to see it... 

 

Carusom, I talked to the MT prop people and have been thinking it over, I like the four bladed prop and it would be cool, I just haven't decided yet.  I need to decide soon, though, because it's going to take a while either way.  Who has the STC for the 310hp upgrade?

 

 

 

[Bentonck]

3 hours ago, Igor_U said:

I'm sorry to hear this... I agree it is sometime you had to say no evening being hard to do so. I am not surprised about backlog on prop. Earlier this year, I was waiting 5 months for the rebuilt engine from Lycoming. Expect the same for engine parts you might need for IRAN. 

 

Where do you keep your plane in San Paulo? Some years ago I spent few mounts working at Embraer in SJC.

Good luck.

The Mooney has been based at Campo de Marte (SBMT) ... I know Embraer very well and have flown into and out of SJC multiple times.  They have an ILS approach which is one of the few here you can shoot.  Congonhas and Garulhos won't let piston's land and Viracopos in Campinas has an ILS but it comes with a $100 landing fee so the only place to shoot an ILS to mantain proficiency here is at SJC, so I usually do it once a month or so.  

There are few airports with ILS's in the country but you have to fly one on every checkride... and in Brazil IPC's are done every year for license renewal whether you need it or not :)

[1980Mooney]

8 hours ago, Bentonck said:

I have been following the forums, though not as much as usual.  For business and because I got tired of trying to coach everyone through getting in and out of the Mooney and putting on oxygen masks that ended up not being very popular, as well as the fact that our mission is long legged and the Mooney is great for 2 on longer legs but much less for more, I ended up buying a King Air this year.  I was going to keep the Mooney as a weekend/fun plane to use with my wife (who loves it) ... but off I was in the US doing initial training, taking delivery, and working through the logistics of exporting an airplane and my poor Mooney Acclaim was sitting in the hangar alone.  I felt bad for her.  I also have a pilot on my payroll (but unfortunately not my insurance) who had flown with me many times in the Mooney and who I had let land a few times for him to mantain currency.  He is a commercial, 1000+ hour pilot with most of his experience in King Airs and Senecas.  I never liked leaving the plane in the hangar without running engine for more than 2 weeks, so I had him go out and run it up and just get the engine up to temp....

....and then he asked if he could take his wife on a local flight around São Paulo, and I, not wanting to be a jerk, said sure.  I then got in the King Air and shuffled off from Texas down to Florida where I arrived to a flurry of messages and several missed calls from said employee....and a picture of my Mooney with a severely bent prop.  He bounced it and couldn't recover apparently so now my Mooney has been down for a month with the engine getting a full IRAN and my prop being trashed while I am trying to find another...(did anyone know there is a months-long backlog for props??? I didn't) ... 

Anyway, I haven't been posting because every time I think about it I get sick to my stomach but the moral of the story here is, don't let anyone fly your plane if they aren't current and checked out in it.  I considered this guy "checked out" by me because we had flown together multiple occasions and he always had shown himself to be a prudent and capable pilot if not the best stick-and-rudder pilot I ever met.  I never dreamed he would bounce it in instead of going around because we had specifically discussed the need to go around after a bounce on multiple occasions and not try to 'save' it.  I have gone around at least 3 times in the last year after not getting myself into the best position and on at least one of those occasions he was with me....but he wasn't "current" and after the fact my wife was asking when the last time he had flown the Mooney was and I frankly couldn't remember.  I should have just said no and let it go...being a nice guy has no place in aviation when the checkbook is yours.

Before anyone get's onto me about the insurance, I thought about it.  I read the policy, but I was lucky as hell to talk one of the three insurance providers here in Brazil to write me a policy on the King Air with extremely limited twin engine and turbine time and if I claim the insurance it is almost certain I don't get my King Air insurance renewed at the end of the year....same underwriter.  The dude feels terrible and is chasing down everyone trying to get everything fixed, and he's a super nice guy.  I just shouldn't have let him, or me, put ourselves in that position.  Just say no.

Maybe I missed it but where is his (the commercial pilot) own insurance?  Shouldn’t it cover the damage?

Also long part availability and repair times are the norm now. I don’t believe for a minute that Continental will remanufacture  in “weeks”. It took Rocket Engineering 3 months including shipping time to repair my engine mount. Now I am waiting for Areo Structural to get sealant for my tanks. They say all their sealant orders are delayed. 

Edited October 14, 2021 by 1980Mooney

[carusoam]

4 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

Maybe I missed it but where is his (the commercial pilot) own insurance?  Shouldn’t it cover the damage?

Also long part availability and repair times are the norm now. I don’t believe for a minute that Continental will remanufacture  in “weeks”. It took Rocket Engineering 3 months including shipping time to repair my engine mount. Now I am waiting for Areo Structural to get sealant for my tanks. They say all their sealant orders are delayed. 

A decade ago when I had my IO550 reman’d…. It got swapped for an engine that was mostly complete, sitting on the shelf.  Two weeks to finish it, two weeks to get it shipped…  you may have been confused by the loose definition of reman…   

Note… they don’t actually reman the engine you send them…. I sent them a first run engine… I got back an engine built up from random airworthy parts…. 

—————————-

 

Benton, the 310hp STC is available directly through Mooney…. For a pirep on using the 310hp in an Acclaim…. Find Joe Zuffeletto…. Joe sold his traveling machine a while ago… but his email is probably still connected to MS…. He wrote a bunch related to flying it…

 

I might still have the O1’s Mac prop with one good blade if that is of any help?

My O has the Acclaim’s TopProp which is pretty nice…

The TopProp is a few pounds heavier than the original Mac…..

I’d go MT just for the four blade image…. And D-Day stripes on the wings…. 

 

let us know what the prop delivery dates look like…

Best regards,

-a-

[GeeBee]

I don't envy your success for one second and I feel bad for your misfortune. Your ownership of the your King Air just reminds me how much I miss flying King Airs in the past and the F90 is my favorite. It is an airplane that is so good you never forget it. Good on you. You had a good heart and it came back on you badly. Lesson learned in this circumstance, but don't let it stop you from being the good man you are because in the end, you take nothing with you but your reputation.

 

[Mooney in Oz]

On 10/15/2021 at 1:40 AM, Bentonck said:

Anyway, I haven't been posting because every time I think about it I get sick to my stomach but the moral of the story here is, don't let anyone fly your plane if they aren't current and checked out in it.

Thank you for sharing your story. @GeeBee has summed up your character very well as it takes integrity to post the circumstances, your mistake then following it up with sage advice. 

In my view, although total time is relevant, proper training followed by time on type and recency are much more important. I know of a similar accident when a former check and training airline Captain of over 20,000 hours with very little Mooney time ferried a near new O3 to a country airfield. He flared way too high, causing the aircraft to stall resulting in an extremely heavy landing with similar consequences.  I shake my head when I hear that silly, sometimes repeated cliche, 'Its just another airplane' referring to not only Mooneys, but also other aircraft when the conversation is centred around landings.  There is no such thing as just another airplane.  All types have their idiosyncrasies that need to be learned and understood. 

On 10/15/2021 at 9:10 AM, Bentonck said:

I will say this.....the Mooney is a Porsche 911, the King Air is a pickup truck....it get's you where you're going and you can take all your crap but efficiency is NOT it's thing and it flies like a truck.

I have never flown the F90 King Air, but have some time on the Super King Air 200. If at some point in the future you decide to upgrade to a later model King Air, of all the twin turbo props I've flown, the 200 is the easiest with beautiful harmonised controls. 

[exM20K]

On 10/14/2021 at 11:25 PM, carusoam said:

 

Benton, the 310hp STC is available directly through Mooney…. For a pirep on using the 310hp in an Acclaim…. Find Joe Zuffeletto…. Joe sold his traveling machine a while ago… but his email is probably still connected to MS…. He wrote a bunch related to flying it…

For the TN, the STC comes from Bob Minnis, Minnis aviation. Highly recommended for t/o and climb performance.
-Dan

[carusoam]

Note for Benton…

Bob Minnis is the guy who wrote the STC for the 310hp IO550…

If you get the chance to discuss it with him… be ready to take notes!  
 

It was one of my favorite aviation conversations…

Best regards,

-a-

[Ragsf15e]

On 10/14/2021 at 7:40 AM, Bentonck said:

I have been following the forums, though not as much as usual.  For business and because I got tired of trying to coach everyone through getting in and out of the Mooney and putting on oxygen masks that ended up not being very popular, as well as the fact that our mission is long legged and the Mooney is great for 2 on longer legs but much less for more, I ended up buying a King Air this year.  I was going to keep the Mooney as a weekend/fun plane to use with my wife (who loves it) ... but off I was in the US doing initial training, taking delivery, and working through the logistics of exporting an airplane and my poor Mooney Acclaim was sitting in the hangar alone.  I felt bad for her.  I also have a pilot on my payroll (but unfortunately not my insurance) who had flown with me many times in the Mooney and who I had let land a few times for him to mantain currency.  He is a commercial, 1000+ hour pilot with most of his experience in King Airs and Senecas.  I never liked leaving the plane in the hangar without running engine for more than 2 weeks, so I had him go out and run it up and just get the engine up to temp....

....and then he asked if he could take his wife on a local flight around São Paulo, and I, not wanting to be a jerk, said sure.  I then got in the King Air and shuffled off from Texas down to Florida where I arrived to a flurry of messages and several missed calls from said employee....and a picture of my Mooney with a severely bent prop.  He bounced it and couldn't recover apparently so now my Mooney has been down for a month with the engine getting a full IRAN and my prop being trashed while I am trying to find another...(did anyone know there is a months-long backlog for props??? I didn't) ... 

Anyway, I haven't been posting because every time I think about it I get sick to my stomach but the moral of the story here is, don't let anyone fly your plane if they aren't current and checked out in it.  I considered this guy "checked out" by me because we had flown together multiple occasions and he always had shown himself to be a prudent and capable pilot if not the best stick-and-rudder pilot I ever met.  I never dreamed he would bounce it in instead of going around because we had specifically discussed the need to go around after a bounce on multiple occasions and not try to 'save' it.  I have gone around at least 3 times in the last year after not getting myself into the best position and on at least one of those occasions he was with me....but he wasn't "current" and after the fact my wife was asking when the last time he had flown the Mooney was and I frankly couldn't remember.  I should have just said no and let it go...being a nice guy has no place in aviation when the checkbook is yours.

Before anyone get's onto me about the insurance, I thought about it.  I read the policy, but I was lucky as hell to talk one of the three insurance providers here in Brazil to write me a policy on the King Air with extremely limited twin engine and turbine time and if I claim the insurance it is almost certain I don't get my King Air insurance renewed at the end of the year....same underwriter.  The dude feels terrible and is chasing down everyone trying to get everything fixed, and he's a super nice guy.  I just shouldn't have let him, or me, put ourselves in that position.  Just say no.

So you’re saying I shouldn’t ask to borrow my company airplane for thanksgiving?!   At least I’m the normal pilot and the named pilot on the insurance…. Makes me think

[daytonabch04]

9 hours ago, carusoam said:

Note for Benton…

Bob Minnis is the guy who wrote the STC for the 310hp IO550…

If you get the chance to discuss it with him… be ready to take notes!  
 

It was one of my favorite aviation conversations…

Best regards,

-a-

I met Bob Minnis yesterday. Great guy and a wealth of knowledge. He’s involved with my Mooney and working to get a new STC approved in the near future. My plane goes into experimental category next week…

Edited October 17, 2021 by daytonabch04

[philiplane]

On 10/14/2021 at 6:10 PM, Bentonck said:

Carusom, I talked to the MT prop people and have been thinking it over, I like the four bladed prop and it would be cool, I just haven't decided yet.  I need to decide soon, though, because it's going to take a while either way.  Who has the STC for the 310hp upgrade?

 

 

 

The best prop for the Acclaim is the Hartzell 3 blade composite. Don't bother with the MT. They are fragile, and high maintenance.

[aviatoreb]

20 minutes ago, philiplane said:

The best prop for the Acclaim is the Hartzell 3 blade composite. Don't bother with the MT. They are fragile, and high maintenance.

?  Who told you the mt is fragile and high maintenance.  Mine hasn’t been.

[carusoam]

21 minutes ago, philiplane said:

The best prop for the Acclaim is the Hartzell 3 blade composite. Don't bother with the MT. They are fragile, and high maintenance.

Philip,

Got any pireps on Mooneys with bad MTs?  (Aside from the older paint and leading edge issues that have been updated…)

Got any detail on any TopProp composites…?

There are several MT owners around here, and plenty of TopProp owners… both happy campers….

Haven’t seen a composite TopProp around here yet….

 

If the weight of a composite TopProp is similar to the weight of an MT… that would be interesting to know about for Benton’s decision point…

The TopProp has a heavy hub.  A few pounds more than the Mac it replaced on my ship… and important WnB issue…

 

Best regards,

-a-

[philiplane]

1 minute ago, aviatoreb said:

?  Who told you the mt is fragile and high maintenance.  Mine hasn’t been.

Well, out of eight MT props I have installed new, all of them leak grease. One has been re-sealed three times, and still leaks. It's only four years old with less than 600 hours. 

Half had leading edge issues ranging from cracks, to loss of leading edge filler, and two had trailing edge separations where the fiberglass jacket comes unglued. Another MT 3 blade I had overhauled two years ago has 600 hours and it is leaking, and the trailing edge is dis-bonded. 

Oddly enough, the only MT prop I'm acquainted with that hasn't been a problem is a pair of five blades I put on a Cheyenne 400.

[201Mooniac]

No problems at all with the 3 blade MT prop on my 201

[A64Pilot]

On 10/16/2021 at 9:56 PM, philiplane said:

 trailing edge is dis-bonded. 

Your one of the very few I’ve seen use disbonded as opposed to debonded.

I used to say debonded until I was corrected by a Boeing Engineer, I bet you have a lot of composite experience?

[Bentonck]

As part of this adventure I got an IRAN done on the engine and it had sat for a few years after the first prop strike (before I owned it, this is the 2nd one!) and there was some pitting on the lifters... but the block is good, pistons and cyldinders are good, and the cube for the prop tested fine so I'm going to end up just buying new blades and overhauling the cube so it'll be zero time but not new.  I'll let ya'll know when the bird is back in the air!

 

[carusoam]

@Bentonck,

We have a good prop guy around here if you need help sourcing prop parts…. Find Cody… @Cody Stallings

Best regards,

-a-