Takeoff & initial climb best practices

[Matt Ward]

There was a recent post on here about when to put flaps up after takeoff and it got me thinking about the whole gear/flaps/pump process after takeoff.   I went to the Mooney PPP to see what they have to say and it's a little tough to unpack:

In my E, I typically climb at Vy which is 90 KIAS and expect to get in the neighborhood of 500 FPM (~5600 field elevation, close to gross weight).  I take off on a runway that's about 5000 feet.

If I'm reading this PPP right, with respect to raising the gear:

-no usable runway: round numbers, I probably takeoff within about 1000 feet.  The POH says I need nearly 2000 feet to land.  That suggests to me that "having usable runway" means I haven't passed the 3000 foot markers.  Flying 2000 feet at takeoff/climb speeds probably only takes ~15 secs.

-to 1000 feet: getting to 1000 feet AGL, is likely a ~2 minute affair.  At that time, I'm probably 2.5 to 3 miles away from the airport, clearly no runway remaining.

-full power Vy climb...not to exceed 80 mph...: in my E, Vy is about 90 KIAS or 103 MPH  or so.  The "not to exceed 80 mph" part is close to Vx, or 70 KIAS.  That's nearly rotation speed which is about 60 KIAS.

So if I break this down, it's either telling me to 1) retract the gear about 15 seconds on my home runway, 2) 2 minutes after I takeoff, or 3) immediately after I takeoff when I hit Vx-ish.

My normal procedure is that I look for about 200-300 AGL and then do gear, pump, and flaps (about 400-500).

What are the established best practices on this?  The POH is pretty vague as it just says "airborne and under good control".

[Hank]

Bob Kromer has spoken on this in the past. I follow his advice:

• Positive rate, in good control, gear up. This is typically NLT 100agl. J bar guys tend to be a little quicker to raise due to low Vg speed.
• Flaps up when I'm looking down at the obstruction that made me lower them for takeoff (unless there's a reason to keep them down longer).
• Climb WOT / 2700 at Vx to clear obstacles, then climb at Vy to altitude, with an eye on CHT especially in the summer. Add speed to lower CHT.

[midlifeflyer]

Two things which might help clarify what you are reading.

1. Within their recommendations, techniques vary. Note they say right at the beginning, "under reasonably good conditions."  Being based at Metro takes you out of that immediately because you always have to consider density altitude, even when the temperature is a standard 2°C. Basically, they are giving you a set of common parameters and asking you to think. 

2. Watch the parsing of this sentence. 

"The gear is raised when no useable runway remains, and the aircraft stabilized in a full power Vy climb to at least 1000 ft agl. "

No, they are not recommending that you delay raising the gear until you are 1000' AGL. They are recommending you raise the gear when there is no usable runway and then climb at Vy to 1000' AGL before transiting to a cruise climb.

When to raise the gear is one of "those" topics which generates a lot of disagreement. My experience in teaching in a number of different types  singles is that most pilots who do use "usable runway" as their test wait to long. Consider your example.  Sure you can land on 2000' of runway — if you were on final approach, fully configured and on airspeed and on glidepath. Considering the effects of D-Alt on your TAS Is that realistic in the case of a sudden catastrophic engine failure even 2,000' down the runway? Now add to the equation that your airplane will climb and perform better on takeoff with the gear and flaps retracted, giving you more options in case of that same catastrophic failure.

 

 

 

[Matt Ward]

Just now, midlifeflyer said:

Two things which might help clarify what you are reading.

1. Within their recommendations, techniques vary. Note they say right at the beginning, "under reasonably good conditions."  Being based at Metro takes you out of that immediately because you always have to consider density altitude, even when the temperature is a standard 2°C. Basically, they are giving you a set of common parameters and asking you to think. 

2. Watch the parsing of this sentence. 

"The gear is raised when no useable runway remains, and the aircraft stabilized in a full power Vy climb to at least 1000 ft agl. "

No, they are not recommending that you delay raising the gear until you are 1000' AGL. They are recommending you raise the gear when there is no usable runway and then climb at Vy to 1000' AGL before transiting to a cruise climb.

When to raise the gear is one of "those" topics which generates a lot of disagreement. My experience in teaching in a number of different types  singles is that most pilots who do use "usable runway" as their test wait to long. Consider your example.  Sure you can land on 2000' of runway — if you were on final approach, fully configured and on airspeed and on glidepath. Considering the effects of D-Alt on your TAS Is that realistic in the case of a sudden catastrophic engine failure even 2,000' down the runway? Now add to the equation that your airplane will climb and perform better on takeoff with the gear and flaps retracted, giving you more options in case of that same catastrophic failure.

 

 

 

I hope I didn't inadvertently open a can of worms!

All valid points with which I agree.  And thanks for the clarification on the 1000 AGL point - that makes much more sense.

I tend to find myself bringing gear up very soon and I've been looking for the counterpoint to that in the other thread about the gearups.  To me it seems like a trade-off between possibly landing again on the tires vs. getting into a better climb faster.  The probability of the former seems quite low to me and probably only useful under a rare set of conditions: immediate catastrophic problem, quick identification and decision, excellent pilotage, etc.  I think I'll stick with the positive rate of climb, things sound good, instruments in the green, gear up, pump off, a few seconds delay, flaps up.  Not something I want to overthink. 

 

 

[Ibra]

59 minutes ago, Matt Ward said:

What are the established best practices on this?  The POH is pretty vague as it just says "airborne and under good control".

In an ideal world with bad luck you should keep it the landing config during your takeoff until you are above 1000ft agl, that includes gear, flaps, pump...so if any issue you will be in the landing config either ahead on raining runway or circling back to the runway with minimal changes to config except nose attitude 

If you are in one of those places where the fields nearby are better than your home runway you may want to re-config as necessary to make it if the engine quits: all up to avoid undershoot, and then all down to avoid overshoot, it comes naturally no need for checklists 

In my opinion, in a single engine a good takeoff is the one where a pilot gets quickly & safely to 2000agl while keeping few landing options in range with CHTs in green, how he does it and how he re-config is irrelevant 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Ibra

[Bob - S50]

We all have our own procedures.  I do this...

Gear up as soon as I'm sure I won't accidentally touch down again.  That's about 30' AGL or so.  Leaving the gear down longer just means I'm wasting energy on drag instead of airspeed or altitude.  Drag does me no good, the other two can be useful later.  If the engine were to fail just after the gear comes up, it will take me longer to slow and descend to the runway than it will take to lower the gear.

Flaps up at 80 KIAS for the same reasons as the gear.  Build energy and reduce drag.

Accelerate to 100 KIAS which is a bit more than Vy+10.  Cowl flaps to trailing.  Better cooling, virtually the same climb rate, more reaction time to get my nose down if the engine quits.

Keep 100 KIAS to pattern altitude, then accelerate to 110 to 120 for the climb, depending on the airspace above me.

[PT20J]

This gets into an area of technique. One of my gripes with CFIs is that a lot of them have a favorite way of doing things and try to remake every pilot in that image. I only have two requirements for pilot technique when I work with an experienced pilot: 1) it has to be safe, and 2) the pilot should have a reason for using that technique. (The most common reason is that's what my first CFI taught me. That's OK, but as we gain experience, it is good to revisit why we do things from time to time).

So, here's what I do in my M20J which seems to work in all circumstances with minimum fuss:

I hold about 5 lbs back pressure during the takeoff run and let the airplane fly off releasing the pressure to attain a 10 degree initial pitch attitude. (Piston airplanes don't really have to be rotated -- that's a jet thing). 

As soon as I have a positive rate of climb, I retract the gear. (I see no reason to delay retracting the gear. On a short filed with obstructions, I'd want it up as soon as possible. I like to  use the same procedures consistently and so I use the same technique on all takeoffs. The possibility of an engine failure during the few seconds when a landing on the remaining runway would be successful seems so remote as to not require serious consideration).

Once clear of obstacles, I lower the nose to 7.5 deg (because there is a hash mark for that on the AI) retract the flaps and allow the airplane to accelerate through best rate to cruise climb.

Skip

[MooneyMitch]

5 minutes ago, PT20J said:

The possibility of an engine failure during the few seconds when a landing on the remaining runway would be successful seems so remote as to not require serious consideration

Yes, agree, it’s a good idea to revisit and possibly reevaluate techniques.  I always learn something from my flight reviews. I don’t always agree or put those learned things into my technique, but I do consider them regardless.

For my airport, our main runway is over 8K feet in length (thank you to proposed Allegiant Air 757 flights to Hawaii that never came to be).  

If one wished to leave gear down with the idea of engine failure on takeoff and landing on remaining runway, this is quite possible with our 8K feet.

 

 

[Ragsf15e]

I agree with both Skip and Bob above.  
 

Gear up, flaps up, appropriate airspeed.  You are near the ground and need to be focused on flying the airplane and looking outside (or inside at ADI/instruments in low weather).  You shouldn’t be doing much more until at a safe altitude (whatever you consider that).  In my CFI opinion, I wouldn’t mess with the fuel pump, cowl flaps or anything other than gear, flaps, trim until I’m clean, stable and climbing through my predetermined safe altitude where I can accomplish my climb checklist which includes the gear, flaps, fuel pump, etc (some would just be checked because they should already be done).

[ArtVandelay]

I agree with both Skip and Bob above.  
 
Gear up, flaps up, appropriate airspeed.

My only issue is the order: airspeed, then flaps....don’t want to risk departure stall.

[mikefox]

Ok, I'll pile on - it is a valid point that we should understand the reasons behind recommended operating practices, so that we can adjust as needed with an understanding of the risks, rather than be dogmatic.  Having said that, barring unusual circumstances, I do the following:

• Positive rate, out of usable, gear up
• Climb stabilized, obstacles cleared (if any), flaps up
• Safe altitude (usually but not always ~1000 AGL)  - pump off, prop 2600 RPM, power as required

[Hank]

10 minutes ago, mikefox said:

. . ., barring unusual circumstances, I do the following:

• Positive rate, out of usable, gear up
• Climb stabilized, obstacles cleared (if any), flaps up
• Safe altitude (usually but not always ~1000 AGL)  - pump off, prop 2600 RPM, power as required

3500' from brake release, my little C is often 300 agl. When landing, at 300 agl I'm still several thousand feet from the numbers. Mitch's 8000' runway might be landable from there, almost everywhere that I go will not be. So gear up at positive rate and in good control.

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

My only issue is the order: airspeed, then flaps....don’t want to risk departure stall.

Per The Book, I "rotate" at 65-75 mph, well above stall speed and still accelerating. 

I also leave the prop at 2700, because the engine is rated for it and more air helps with engine cooling. Reducing power just leaves you climbing for a longer time, adding even more heat to the engine.

NOTE:  it says to retract flaps at 80-90 MPH. My 1970 C left the factory with electric flaps and gear (as did every Mooney built after 1968). Vfo = 125 mph.

[gsxrpilot]

Losing an engine and putting it back down on the runway, gear down or gear up doesn't kill me. Losing an engine below 1000 feet AGL without any good landing options straight ahead, might. So I want to take as little time as possible to get to that 1000 AGL where I have a chance of turning back to the runway. 

Therefore, break ground, positive rate, gear up. The more runway remaining when the gear comes up, the better I like it. Climb, climb, climb like your life depends on it. Between brake release and 1000 AGL, the only thing I care about is getting to 1000 AGL in the shortest possible time. 

At BJC the common runway is 30R. There is a golf course just off the runway, but there is also a lot of elevation change. Good luck finding a level spot to put it down. And if the wind is favoring 12R... you've got NO options. You will definitely hit a car or house no matter what you do. So in either case, altitude is life. And Mooneys don't climb for shit with the gear down.

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, ArtVandelay said:

My only issue is the order: airspeed, then flaps....don’t want to risk departure stall.

Yeah fair enough.  You don’t want to bring the flaps up immediately after takeoff or if you’re still slow.  I guess I do it in your order - gear, airspeed, flaps - because I wait until 100mph in my F to pull up the flaps.  
 

I realize there’s some experienced Mooney folks who don’t use takeoff flaps and I’ve tried that recently on longer runways.  It seems fine to me, however I have about 3500 hours in the last 20 years doing climbing, gear up, (airspeed), flaps up... so my habit is still to start with them at takeoff setting.

[Matt Ward]

8 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

Cowl flaps to trailing

I’ve got manual cowl flaps in my E. Are you finding the trailing position by feel or something else? I find I am either wide open or fully closed with my cowl flaps and I wonder if I can improve on that. 

[carusoam]

Probably by measuring...

I don’t recall anything that would give a feelable feed back...

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

[Austintatious]

Fun thread... hits close to home.  As some of you might remember, I was in an accident in a Meridian after the engine rolled to idle and flattened the prop to maintain RPM... I was at about 400 feet when it happened, 15 seconds later I was on the dirt.  FWIW,  I had plenty of time to put the gear down and I did so because the situation made it clear we would probably hit the ground hard and I wanted to have the gear there to at lease absorb some of the impact... which it did... off field.

Anyhow, in the Mooney, I take off with 0 flaps on long runways as it just likes it better.  I raise the gear very shortly after a positive rate... probably 50 feet.  For shorter fields, I climb at about 80 knots with flaps in T/O until im about 800 feet high then lower the nose and accelerate and raise them.    I am always evaluating my options as I climb and already have a plan at each step of the way....   "Strait ahead, ok now that field to the right, ok now I can make the x wind runway, ok now I can turn and land on the downwind" 

I am always watching my glide ring even in cruise in the flight levels and staying aware of where I can go if it quits.  I get pretty nervous when there are no airports in that ring.  I try to avoid it but it still happens.

[Flash]

11 hours ago, PT20J said:

I hold about 5 lbs back pressure during the takeoff run and let the airplane fly off

This is my technique, too: gentle back pressure (and proper trim) and you don't even have to think about when to rotate, as the plane takes off when it's ready. The only time I don't use that technique is when I'm on a soft field and want to get the wheels off the ground early and then accelerate in ground effect.

[GeeBee]

10 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Losing an engine and putting it back down on the runway, gear down or gear up doesn't kill me. Losing an engine below 1000 feet AGL without any good landing options straight ahead, might. So I want to take as little time as possible to get to that 1000 AGL where I have a chance of turning back to the runway. 

Therefore, break ground, positive rate, gear up. The more runway remaining when the gear comes up, the better I like it. Climb, climb, climb like your life depends on it. Between brake release and 1000 AGL, the only thing I care about is getting to 1000 AGL in the shortest possible time. 

At BJC the common runway is 30R. There is a golf course just off the runway, but there is also a lot of elevation change. Good luck finding a level spot to put it down. And if the wind is favoring 12R... you've got NO options. You will definitely hit a car or house no matter what you do. So in either case, altitude is life. And Mooneys don't climb for shit with the gear down.

There is several reasons to climb quickly. For starters, you can't maneuver IFR below 400' unless the departure procedure so states, so I climb at Vx to get up to 400' pronto, I accelerate to Vy to get to 1000' in the shortest possible time, at 1000' I look for climb power and a cruise climb unless obstacles intervene. Some obstacle procedures require higher than 400', so climb to the obstacle altitude at Vx in that case.  Unlike a lot of retractables you don't have to wait for "out of runway" on the Mooney because the gear cycles so fast. If you loose an engine, you can have the gear down quickly below 200'. So gear in the wells pronto is the order of the day. In some cases you may want to keep the gear in the wells on engine failure for a short runway where you know you are going into the dirt, departure brief is important.

Flaps or no flaps is runway dependent. No flaps require a longer run but better acceleration. If you have a long runway and no close in obstacles the airplane will accelerate to Vy quicker. Shorter runways and obstacles dictate the use of flaps. 

[steingar]

I'm the odd duck.  Takeoff is very busy for me.  Once I see positive rate the wheels come up, usually with a pretty good tug on the yoke.  Flaps right after that.  Right after that I bring prop and power back to 25 squared for the climb out.  Heresy you say!  It is the proscribed procedure in the book.  The book was written in hieroglyphics you say! True dat, but my thinking goes like this.  The older Mooneys are notorious for engine cooling issues, lots of vintage airplanes are. I've never seen it, but I don't have a fancy pants engine monitor, so I'm not likely to.  But I think the best way to exacerbate engine cooling issues is the climb slowly at high power settings.  I climb slowly (100-120 mph) with somewhat lower power settings.

[jlunseth]

There was a really good article written about takeoff strategy several years ago. To write the article, the author and a copilot actually went out and experimented to find what altitude they needed to execute the “Impossible Turn.” They found The Turn to be more difficult that most pilots would expect because it is a 270, not a 180, and the turn causes quite a bit of loss of altitude. They also found that one of the greatest dangers is pilot surprise and failure to act in the first few seconds after the engine quits. There is no choice, the nose must go down right away.

They went to altitude for their experiments, simulated a full power takeoff, cut the throttle, and then held the climb for three seconds to simulate pilot surprise. They then observed how much altitude would be lost in a 270 to the airport and it was about 900 feet. I don’t remember the particular aircraft, it was probably a Skyhawk. They advocated doing this test for yourself, in your aircraft, so you know how much altitude you need to even attempt the turn.

Then they tried some climb rates. What they found was that Vx is actually somewhat dangerous because the airspeed is too slow and the pitch angle too high. A pilot who takes a little too much time putting the nose over as at high risk of a stall and spin. Vy was not good either, the aircraft takes too long to get to a turn altitude, and too far away from the airport.  What they found to be best was a climb at best glide, which is generally about a midpoint between Vx and Vy. It gives the pilot time to react and put the nose over, and has the best chance of climbing to Turn altitude within gliding distance of the airport.

So my takeoffs are full power, gear at positive rate, then flaps, then climb at 85 to 1000 ft. Then do whatever you want, climb to a high cruise altitude or go to 2500 and head for the practice area. 

My home field, KFCM, does not have a lot of good places to put it down in the event of an engine out. There are some, but not alot. Best strategy is to get to 1000 AGL as quickly as possible in a way that, if the engine fails, does not leave you prone to stall/spin.

[ArtVandelay]

I try to preplan what I am going to do, at my airport I use the runway with best chance (most airport property underneath me, no houses), the color dots represent my landing should engine fail during same color segment.

 

 

So despite the long way around to head SE, I sacrifice 2 minutes to lessen risk. It’s no guarantee, there is nothing to the SE.

Unfortunately the school students all take the shortest route.

[Hank]

21 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

What they found to be best was a climb at best glide, which is generally about a midpoint between Vx and Vy. It gives the pilot time to react and put the nose over, and has the best chance of climbing to Turn altitude within gliding distance of the airport.

For me and my C:

• Vx = 80 mph
• Vy = 100 mph - Altitude in thousands 
• Vbg = 105 mph

So my initial climb is at 85 until over the trees, then nose down to 100 and climb to cruising altitude. Then a minute or two to accelerate, then set power and lean. 

[Bob - S50]

12 hours ago, Matt Ward said:

I’ve got manual cowl flaps in my E. Are you finding the trailing position by feel or something else? I find I am either wide open or fully closed with my cowl flaps and I wonder if I can improve on that. 

Might be different on your E, but on our J as we push the lever to retract the cowl flaps it takes a few pounds of force to start it moving.  After a few inches of travel the force required disappears.  That's the trailing position.  After I'm at cruise with the engine leaned out, it again takes a few pounds of force to fully close the cowl flaps.

[Bob - S50]

2 hours ago, GeeBee said:

There is several reasons to climb quickly. For starters, you can't maneuver IFR below 400' unless the departure procedure so states, so I climb at Vx to get up to 400' pronto, I accelerate to Vy to get to 1000' in the shortest possible time, at 1000' I look for climb power and a cruise climb unless obstacles intervene. Some obstacle procedures require higher than 400', so climb to the obstacle altitude at Vx in that case.  Unlike a lot of retractables you don't have to wait for "out of runway" on the Mooney because the gear cycles so fast. If you loose an engine, you can have the gear down quickly below 200'. So gear in the wells pronto is the order of the day. In some cases you may want to keep the gear in the wells on engine failure for a short runway where you know you are going into the dirt, departure brief is important.

Flaps or no flaps is runway dependent. No flaps require a longer run but better acceleration. If you have a long runway and no close in obstacles the airplane will accelerate to Vy quicker. Shorter runways and obstacles dictate the use of flaps. 

The only thing you might want to consider is that part about using Vx to 400'.  Vx gets you there in the least distance.  Vy gets you there in the least time.  Because Vy will give you more speed, it will also give you more time to get your nose down to avoid a stall if the engine quits.

I use 100 KIAS instead of Vy which is about 88 KIAS because there is almost no difference in climb rate, gives me better visibility for a straight ahead landing, gives me more time to react, and is fast enough that my engine stays cool with the cowl flaps in trailing which reduces drag and allows the rate of climb to be close to or even better than Vy.