Insurance rates

[tigers2007]

With “open pilot” does that mean the insurance company won’t subrogate a qualified pilot who borrows and wrecks it?


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[kortopates]

With “open pilot” does that mean the insurance company won’t subrogate a qualified pilot who borrows and wrecks it?

 

 

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No! But without the Open pilot clause, if you loan your bird to another pilot, not named on your policy, neither You nor the other pilot are covered by your insurance.

 

With the Open pilot clause, You are still insured assuming the other pilot meets the minimum open pilot requirements but your insurance can subrogate against the other pilot for any loss unless they are a named insured or have a letter of no subrogation (not the exact terminology) on your policy.

 

 

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[ArtVandelay]

No! But without the Open pilot clause, if you loan your bird to another pilot, not named on your policy, neither You nor the other pilot are covered by your insurance.

Above will never happen in my case, but if the plane is in for service, both stationary or while in motion, who’s insurance covers the plane?


Tom

[Bob_Belville]

On 1/31/2020 at 10:35 PM, Ned Gravel said:

Quote came in today.  $1,900 US, versus $1,100 US last year.  I can live with that.  

Ned, that's about the same as mine.(Mine is for $95k hull.) You're not 75 are you?

[Ned Gravel]

6 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Ned, that's about the same as mine.(Mine is for $95k hull.) You're not 75 are you?

Only eight years younger than that.

[Ned Gravel]

Just now, Ned Gravel said:

Only eight years younger than that.

Two other advantages for the one I accepted.  Open pilot was dropped by my previous underwriter and my MAPA PPP course instructors are now fully covered without my asking (and paying) for them to be “named” pilots.  Automatically covered now.  

[Hank]

Just now, Ned Gravel said:

Two other advantages for the one I accepted.  Open pilot was dropped by my previous underwriter and my MAPA PPP course instructors are now fully covered without my asking (and paying) for them to be “named” pilots.  Automatically covered now.  

I've never paid to have an instructor added as Named to my policy.

[KLRDMD]

19 minutes ago, Hank said:

I've never paid to have an instructor added as Named to my policy.

That's changing. The last two Mooney pilots I was asked to fly with, both companies were going to charge an additional premium and I have over 1,000 hours in Mooneys,  CFI, CFII, MEI & ATP. One added me, one didn't. I only flew with the one that. did.

[MIm20c]

These changes are not going to be helpful for “higher risk” pilots trying to get into or remain in this hobby...

[Ned Gravel]

10 hours ago, Hank said:

I've never paid to have an instructor added as Named to my policy.

I didn’t until two years ago.  

[tigers2007]

How much extra did you all pay to add an instructor to the policy? Is it a general addition "any instructor with xxxx hours in a complex aircraft" blah blah or specific to the individual instructor?

[Parker_Woodruff]

17 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

Above will never happen in my case, but if the plane is in for service, both stationary or while in motion, who’s insurance covers the plane?


Tom

Many insurance policies delete the pilot requirement when the aircraft is in care, custody, and control of an FAA CRS or a repair shop in general.

[Parker_Woodruff]

17 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Ned, that's about the same as mine.(Mine is for $95k hull.) You're not 75 are you?

Canadian policies are a lot more expensive.

[PT20J]

You know, the FAA is really emphasizing risk management these days. That's because most accidents continue to be due to "pilot error." A more positive way to label that is "failure to manage risk." Purchasing insurance is a financial risk management technique that transfers the risk of loss from the insured to the insurance company. Successful insurance companies know more about risk than you do because they have to price policies so that they make money by understanding their risk exposure. Therefore, if you're quoted a premium that seems high, I think the first thing to do is to understand why and then think hard about what the professional risk managers are trying to tell you. We all know the old saw about doctors and Bonanzas.

Skip

[KLRDMD]

15 hours ago, PT20J said:

We all know the old saw about doctors and Bonanzas.

Which is 50+ years old now and holds zero relevance today. Maybe next we'll hear about how the second engine only serves to take you to the accident site.

[Immelman]

Fall quote & renewal:

2017... $695

2018... $730

2019... $901

 

$50K hull. $1M/100K. M20E.

ATP, CFI, etc. Not a lot of time in the Mooney the last year, plenty of hours airline.

Never made a claim. No skeletons.

Edited February 4, 2020 by Immelman

[RobertGary1]

On 1/30/2020 at 8:22 AM, KLRDMD said:

My premium went down $137 this year from $1,460 to $1,323. I had zero M&M last year, 125 hours at renewal. This is for a $100k hull Bonanza, not a Mooney. Maybe Mooney rates went up and Bonanza rates went down?

You experienced a non-systemic reduction because of your increased hours.  When your time in type is that low more hours makes a big difference.

-Robert

[steingar]

To be honest, I think these rate increases have a  lot more to do with a pair of crashes of brand new airliners than anything we did.  Our claims are utterly dwarfed by that.  Remember, we're in a big pool.

[KLRDMD]

2 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

You experienced a non-systemic reduction because of your increased hours.  When your time in type is that low more hours makes a big difference.

Sometimes, sometimes not. I had 250+ hours in Barons including over 100 hours in the previous 12 months. Barons aren't that much different than Bonanzas. If I could safely fly a Baron I could probably safely fly a Bonanza. Plus I had a couple thousand hours in HP & complex airplanes. My transition training requirement into the Bonanza was simply a checkout by the seller (who was not a CFI) which tells me they didn't feel as though I was much of a risk in the airplane and risk drives premiums. Am I at less risk now at 125 hours in the Bonanza? Not by any meaningful standard.

[Andy95W]

6 hours ago, Immelman said:

Fall quote & renewal:

2017... $695

2018... $730

2019... $901

 

$50K hull. $1M/100K. M20E.

ATP, CFI, etc. Not a lot of time in the Mooney the last year, plenty of hours airline.

Never made a claim. No skeletons.

@Immelman-  your description above is practically identical to mine.  I was concerned my rate jumped more than 10%, so I messaged Parker Woodruff. His explanation was that the previous years' rates were abnormally low, now it is actually where it should be.  Sounded reasonable, to me.

[Moonbat]

Aircraft: 1967 M20E

Me: 68 yrs old, no skeletons, 1700 hrs TT, 400 hrs in type, MAPA PPP, current BFR, current IPC

Policy: $85K hull, $100K per person, $1M total (not sure about open pilot clause) 

2019 premium: $900

quote #1 through AOPA for 2020: $1450

quote #2 through AVEMCO: $1580 

ouch! 

 

[tigers2007]

I think Parker pointed out that our increases are nowhere near what the commercials got hit with. Parker what does a Lear 45 or CRJ cost to insure (ballpark)? Maybe knowing this will take away some of the pain. There was a blog out there about a CB who wanted to rack up some multiengine time by purchasing a run out Apache and determined it was substantially cheaper to roll the dice for a couple years. Doing that saved him at least six AMU's before he flipped it.

[Parker_Woodruff]

On 2/8/2020 at 8:19 AM, tigers2007 said:

I think Parker pointed out that our increases are nowhere near what the commercials got hit with. Parker what does a Lear 45 or CRJ cost to insure (ballpark)? Maybe knowing this will take away some of the pain. There was a blog out there about a CB who wanted to rack up some multiengine time by purchasing a run out Apache and determined it was substantially cheaper to roll the dice for a couple years. Doing that saved him at least six AMU's before he flipped it.

Up until a year ago I could insure a pro-flown $8MM Learjet 40 with $50MM of liability coverage for about $12,500 -$13,000/year - 0.1% of hull value and $4.5k to $5K for the liability.  Zero deductibles.  Cheap.

Today that number is probably around $22K.  Still cheap.

Sorry I can't make you feel better.

[jetdriven]

I just can’t understand why a$140,000 Mooney M20J flown  by the same professional pilot with 1 million smooth is 1/6 of that premium. 
Same rate is 145$ for hull and 100$ for the liability. I’m paying 13x that rate. 

[DF's M20J]

Our corporate coverage went up approximately 15 % overall that’s  managing our 78 M20J, 77 C172N & 70 C150L. The hull value portion on the 3 didn’t increase but the hit was in the liability coverage Individually. It could’ve been worse from others I’ve read going into 2020. Jenna with Wenk Aviation Insurance has been a great help with our aviation coverage.