Trade offs between an F and J model

[EricJ]

I went shopping for an E model and wound up buying an early (77) J.   I'm really glad it went that way for me.   There are just so many things that are a bit better sorted out on a J, but that's to be expected with any product evolution.

 

[Mooney in Oz]

John Breda’s ( @M20F-1968 ) highly modified F model is another example of just how stunning the end result can look.

You can see a lot of blood, sweat, patience and tears at times went into it.

Those of you who have the drive, passion and knowledge to do this then put it into practice , I salute you.

[carusoam]

Poor guy...

Its a Sunday...

He walks into a room to discuss a simple idea...

He finds out...

He is in the right place...

Asking the right question...

But finds out...

The question itself runs deeper than expected...

Welcome aboard, Christothes...

While selecting an airframe... Keep your eye on...

• Aerodynamics
• UL
• and all the updates of the individual plane

These changed a bunch over the years...

The M20F is a fantastic, top of the line, NA airplane of its time... the M20J was its follow on, and improved slowly over time...

One look at the E and Fs above that are soooo modern, you won’t ever remember this question...

find J Breda’s picture files... or Bennett’s... in case you feel one of two is a fluke.

 

Know a plane may be born modern... but it won’t stay that way forever.... 

 

Nobody mentioned...

What’s your mission, stage of life, kids or grand kids, single and cruizin’, aviation in your family or in your blood, married with no kids at home with the urge to fly somewhere or everywhere... 

 

Hang around, ask some deeper questions....enjoy!

Best regards,

-a-

[MBDiagMan]

11 hours ago, rbridges said:

Yeah, I crossed that mental line last year. I came to realize that the C model works for my wife and me, and it will probably be my plane for a long time.  

I would still be ecstatic about my C had I not injured my shoulder forcing me to electric gear.  C’s are wonderful to start with, but mine was an incredible example.  Nothing at all wrong with a C.

[rbridges]

40 minutes ago, MBDiagMan said:

I would still be ecstatic about my C had I not injured my shoulder forcing me to electric gear.  C’s are wonderful to start with, but mine was an incredible example.  Nothing at all wrong with a C.

Mine looks similar albeit without the much nicer paint scheme.  I can see where the shoulder injury would preclude a johnson bar.

[Eight8Victor]

Insurance cost might be a factor to consider as well. 

[mooniac15u]

12 hours ago, smccray said:

Operating cost likely to be very similar. A slightly lower fuel bill- so close you probably don’t notice. Slightly higher maintenance bill for some of the J “enhancements.”  I’d take the newer ones plane.  The difference is slight- $20-30k, but you get it back when you sell the plane.

Which enhancements have the higher maintenance bill?

[ArtVandelay]

Which enhancements have the higher maintenance bill?

Only one I can think of is electric gear (& infamous back spring).


Tom

[christothes]

2 hours ago, Eight8Victor said:

Insurance cost might be a factor to consider as well. 

What factors, other than sale price, would affect insurance rates?

[christothes]

Poor guy...

Its a Sunday...

He walks into a room to discuss a simple idea...

He finds out...

He is in the right place...

Asking the right question...

But finds out...

The question itself runs deeper than expected...

Welcome aboard, Christothes...

While selecting an airframe... Keep your eye on...

• Aerodynamics
• UL
• and all the updates of the individual plane

These changed a bunch over the years...

The M20F is a fantastic, top of the line, NA airplane of its time... the M20J was its follow on, and improved slowly over time...

One look at the E and Fs above that are soooo modern, you won’t ever remember this question...

find J Breda’s picture files... or Bennett’s... in case you feel one of two is a fluke.

 

Know a plane may be born modern... but it won’t stay that way forever.... 

 

Nobody mentioned...

What’s your mission, stage of life, kids or grand kids, single and cruizin’, aviation in your family or in your blood, married with no kids at home with the urge to fly somewhere or everywhere... 

 

Hang around, ask some deeper questions....enjoy!

Best regards,

-a-

LOL - I've been lurking long enough to know exactly how this thread would go - which is why I posed the question. Great stuff here

 

I didn't mention my mission because the differences between an F and J are small enough that either choice share the same mission alignments. But just for some more background, the mission is x-country of more than a few 100nm (between TX, CA, CO (low side), MS, FL), mostly 2 people (my wife and I), but maybe a couples kids on occasion for shorter trips.

 

 

[smccray]

58 minutes ago, mooniac15u said:

Which enhancements have the higher maintenance bill?

Manual gear system is its own backup, so an electric gear J vs a Manual F has some more complex systems.  Get into a later J and you have electric cowl flaps, 205s have inner gear doors.  Overall it's close enough that the difference between airplanes is probably more significant than the difference between models, but on average I would have to say the J is probably a little higher.  Not enough to affect the decision, the J is likely a little higher.

3 minutes ago, christothes said:

What factors, other than sale price, would affect insurance rates?

I suspect the only difference is insured value.  Liability insurance is cheap, insured value is expensive.  So the increased value of the airplane drives a higher insurance cost.  That said, the cruise speed of the J is faster, so if we want to rationalize, the insurance cost per mile (more relevant that cost per hour) is similar.  It's complete crap when it comes to calculating block times for a particular trip, but who cares- this is aviation logic- we rationalize the conclusion.  It's cheaper to rent a compact car and drive, but that's not why we're here :).

[christothes]

Just now, nosky2high said:

Hull Value.

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the difference, assuming one has paid a reasonable market price?

[smccray]

1 minute ago, christothes said:

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the difference, assuming one has paid a reasonable market price?

@Parker_Woodruff is more qualified to answer this than me.  What is it parker- insurance is 1.5% of the insured value? Higher insured value leads to a higher premium.

[mooniac15u]

18 minutes ago, smccray said:

Manual gear system is its own backup, so an electric gear J vs a Manual F has some more complex systems.  Get into a later J and you have electric cowl flaps, 205s have inner gear doors.  Overall it's close enough that the difference between airplanes is probably more significant than the difference between models, but on average I would have to say the J is probably a little higher.  Not enough to affect the decision, the J is likely a little higher.

I suspect the only difference is insured value.  Liability insurance is cheap, insured value is expensive.  So the increased value of the airplane drives a higher insurance cost.  That said, the cruise speed of the J is faster, so if we want to rationalize, the insurance cost per mile (more relevant that cost per hour) is similar.  It's complete crap when it comes to calculating block times for a particular trip, but who cares- this is aviation logic- we rationalize the conclusion.  It's cheaper to rent a compact car and drive, but that's not why we're here :).

The OP was asking about late model F's so it should be electric gear on both.  The older airframes typically have more ADs.  So, the minor maintenance on things like gear doors vs the cost of AD compliance is probably so close that it's almost impossible to calculate due to a large variability in what people pay for the various tasks.

One thing I've noticed on these discussions of J's versus F's is that in one post someone will say that a late F is so close to a J that it doesn't make a difference and then in another post someone will talk about manual gear.  If we are talking about manual gear F's then there are other differences such as non-standard instrument layouts and older style yokes.

[Marauder]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is the difference, assuming one has paid a reasonable market price?

 

If you buy a J, the assumption is you are paying more and will want to insure the hull for more. My F is a late model (1975) but is heavily upgraded and as such, I have the insurance hull value set much higher than many J models. Parker will come along and spell out the risks of setting the hull value too low. You want sufficient hull value to offset your acquisition cost plus any upgrades. If you set it too low, the likelihood of your plane being totaled is higher and guess who gets to keep all the fancy avionics, new paint job and interior?

 

 

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[Marauder]

Looks like it had chicken feet.

Most of us would rather think of them as talons. You know, like the hawk or eagle where our birds fly. Chicken feet probably are pretty common on Pipers.


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[mooniac15u]

18 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

If you buy a J, the assumption is you are paying more and will want to insure the hull for more. My F is a late model (1975) but is heavily upgraded and as such, I have the insurance hull value set much higher than many J models. Parker will come along and spell out the risks of setting the hull Valerie too low. You want sufficient hull value to offset your acquisition cost plus any upgrades. If you set it too low, the likelihood of your plane being totaled is higher and guess who gets to keep all the fancy avionics, new paint job and interior?


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Please don't post any pictures of Valerie.

[steingar]

I would want the best equipped example, not necessarily one airframe or the other.  It will always depend n which airframe are on the market when I'm shopping.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Newer airplanes are sometimes cheaper to insure per $ insured. Lower Hull Value airplanes are normally more expensive to insure per $ insured.

same pilot might insure a $150K M20R for 1% of Hull Value whereas a $50K M20E might be 1.5% of Hull.

[JimB]

On a J you only get one magneto!  (he says to be funny ...)

More seriously, I went through the same thing. Really wanted a J but was willing to take an F. I set myself a price range that I was willing to spend and shopped for both. I did want the longer fuselage and the injected engine. But I was looking for one that needed upgrading and TLC so that wasn't much of a factor. To me there really wasn't a lot of difference in an aircraft with 20-30 year old avionics or one with 30-40 year old avionics. 

[Bob_Belville]

10 hours ago, 201er said:

Can get 160-165ktas at the absolute best case scenario with best power, best altitude, 75% power, drinking 13gph. Likewise can get about 152-154ktas at 10gph at 75% LOP. Again in the best case. 140-145ktas on 8-8.5gph all day long and very efficient, quieter, less oil burn, just nicer upkeep in the long run.

Mike, that's very close to what I see, real world except I don't run 75%, certainly not at 13 gph.

With 64 gallons burning 8.5 gph I can easily do 5 hour legs with reserves. 

[Shadrach]

14 minutes ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Newer airplanes are sometimes cheaper to insure per $ insured. Lower Hull Value airplanes are normally more expensive to insure per $ insured.

same pilot might insure a $150K M20R for 1% of Hull Value whereas a $50K M20E might be 1.5% of Hull.

Can you provide some insight as to why?

[mike_elliott]

16 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

N6XM (may she rest in peace) was a legitimate 153 - 155 knot TAS M20C. I often wondered what it would have been like with an IO360 under the cowl. I do like my turbo, but when I'm done with it, I think I'd like to build an E like @Bob_Belville. And see if one could be built that would out run the J's.

Dennis Ramsey had a C with J cowl, J mods, IO360 and Hi Compression pistons. He was based at Gladewater back in the day and few if any J's could keep up with him. I only know of one I would think about racing him with. Now Dennis drives a VI P.

[steingar]

A buddy of mine had an E with just one mod, the hunk of aluminum that goes inside the front cowl.  He outran J's with ease.  I wanted an E, I really did.  but at my price point I could get a crappy E or a nice C.  I went for the C.  I doubt my trip time is more than 5 or ten minutes longer because of it.  And if I ever have to replace cylinders I'll pay half as much.

[MrRodgers]

23 hours ago, rbridges said:

If you get a J, you get to hang out in the modern mooney section.  If you get an F, you're relegated to the vintage section with us common folk where the J people look down at you.  

Relegated? 

I prefer the term "fortunate" to be in the vintage category.  There is just something about a well maintained vintage anything that always gets my attention.