Yes I am stupid enough to buy a M22, but how much should I pay?

[67 m20F chump]

Thanks for posting pics.  I have never seen a M22 in the wild.  That gear looks like it came off a piper to me.  Not at all what I’m used to seeing on a Mooney.

[Mcstealth]

How high have you taken her? Is she calm in the cabin or noisy?

My father was one of the engineers on the M22. He advocated for a completely new fuselage design and actually drew plans for one. He said the roll cage was just not conducive for pressurized operations. He was overruled by marketing he says because the roll cage was a major appeal of Mooney.

Interesting factoid about the 22 is that Mooney filed and was granted a patent on the cabin door design. 

[Igor_U]

Thank you for posting great pictures! Paint looks very good for the age.
I wasn’t aware you could overhaul those engines, or buy the parts. Who did the overhaul? Also, is the Pressurization system operational? 
 

regards,

 

[aviatoreb]

Wow- it is really beautiful.  Kudos that she is still an active and beautiful machine.

Mooney was first to the show in what became a very successful concept later for other companies.  E.g. the P210 and the Piper Mirage.

Imagine if Mooney had kept running with that design and refining it over a decade or two.  It may have dramatically changed the fortunes of the company.  Imagine what a M22 would be like by today if it were still an active design.

 

[airmocha]

Beefcake pyramid point of a totally cool line of airplanes. Jealous!

[EricJ]

11 hours ago, Yves said:

Hello to all of you....... 

A few more words on the M22.  

Aircraft was repainted from bare metal in a small paint shop close to London in 1992.  The M22 has always been hangared and the paint still looks very nice. 

Polished every year for the last 20 years !!   Engine overhauled in the US. Project completed in 2016.  Long project but fully documented.

Engine has now around 150 hrs since overhaul and runs like a dream.  I tried to keep the aircraft as original as possible.   

Installed a EDM 900 as primary to avoid to be grounded in any problems with the old gauges.  All still running ok.  Also installed a new Garmin 330 ES transponder to be complying with the latest requirement in Australia. 

I know that there is M22 in South Africa. I was in contact with the owner a few years ago.  The aircraft did not fly for around 20 years now. 

One M22 also in Switzerland.   

A few photos taken this afternoon (except the one in the air) ....  

Very cool!   Thanks for posting the pics!

There was an M22 at Stellar field in Phoenix, AZ, for a long time, but somebody bought it and flew it away not too long ago.  

 

[KLRDMD]

Ad just like that, Yves' M22 is listed for sale: https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?listing_id=2390066&s-type=aircraft

[Yves]

Engine was overhauled by Devine Airport Group.  

Pressurisation system working ok.  System is quite simple with the turbo feeding the cabin. Regulation through two outflow valves through the rear bulkhead. Valves have been overhauled and recalibrated by the manufacture in the US. 

Max differential pressure is 4.2 PSI with a cabin altitude of 8,000 ft at 24,000 ft (max ceiling). 

[Yves]

21 hours ago, Mcstealth said:

How high have you taken her? Is she calm in the cabin or noisy?

My father was one of the engineers on the M22. He advocated for a completely new fuselage design and actually drew plans for one. He said the roll cage was just not conducive for pressurized operations. He was overruled by marketing he says because the roll cage was a major appeal of Mooney.

Interesting factoid about the 22 is that Mooney filed and was granted a patent on the cabin door design. 

When I go up it is between 15,000 and 18,000 ft.  Cabin noise is acceptable not more noisy than any other similar single engine aircraft. 

 

[yvesg]

Bienvenue sur le forum @Yves. Il semble qu’on est deux Yves ici maintenant.

Yves Grenier

[Yves]

1 hour ago, yvesg said:

Bienvenue sur le forum @Yves. Il semble qu’on est deux Yves ici maintenant.

Yves Grenier

Grand Merci....  vous êtes aussi propriétaire d'un Mooney .... au Canada ?  

 

[yvesg]

1 hour ago, Yves said:

Grand Merci....  vous êtes aussi propriétaire d'un Mooney .... au Canada ?  

 

Oui Yves. Je pilote un Mooney depuis environ 20 ans. Machine très efficace.  Et malgré le fait que cet avion est construit au chaud, au Texas, il performe très bien ici en hivers. J’ai déjà décollé à moins trente Celcius. Si tu cherche sur Google mon indicatif, tu trouvra quelques photos et même une sur une piste de glace sur une rivière.

Yves

 

[Marc B]

I know this is an old thread, but just saw this link which may be of interest to anyone still following. Looks like serial 001 of M22 line is for sale,

https://cleveland.craigslist.org/avo/d/edgewood-mooney-mustang-222-kts/7800854001.html

[LANCECASPER]

4 hours ago, Marc B said:

I know this is an old thread, but just saw this link which may be of interest to anyone still following. Looks like serial 001 of M22 line is for sale,

https://cleveland.craigslist.org/avo/d/edgewood-mooney-mustang-222-kts/7800854001.html

When you have to resort to craigslist to sell your airplane, you know it's a tough airplane to sell

[takair]

5 hours ago, Marc B said:

I know this is an old thread, but just saw this link which may be of interest to anyone still following. Looks like serial 001 of M22 line is for sale,

https://cleveland.craigslist.org/avo/d/edgewood-mooney-mustang-222-kts/7800854001.html

This one is super rare in that it has a B5 autopilot which can still be serviced.  Most just had a wing leveler.

[Tx_Aggie]

This is the kind of plane that will sell. Spruce it up and it’ll compete with the Malibu/mirage. 

[201er]

“I am asking $135,000 at this time
Make Me an offer or Trade I can’t refuse”

Send Tony @carusoam from Jersey down there, I’m sure he knows a lot about offers you can’t refuse 

[AJ88V]

I would think this type of plane would best be owned by an IA/A&P.  That would make the world of ownership an affordable proposition for this rare and very cool aircraft.

[LANCECASPER]

6 hours ago, AJ88V said:

I would think this type of plane would best be owned by an IA/A&P.  That would make the world of ownership an affordable proposition for this rare and very cool aircraft.

It says a lot about the ability for your average Mooney owner to manage maintainence on these airplanes when the only two M22s which will probably ever be flown somewhat reliably are owned by the Pietsch family who have been a Mooney Service Center in North Dakota for over 70 years (https://minotaerocenter.com/about-us/) and the Maxwell family who have had a Mooney Service Center for decades. (It's my understanding that Pietsch has owned the airplane since new and Maxwells took on their project just because they can.)

Much of the rest of the small M22 fleet are rotting away on the ramp or are endless projects in hangars with little hope of ever flying again. Support for the engines is virtually non-existent. The parts to keep the airframe pressurized didn't work very well to begin with and have been out of production for decades. There is a reason this airplane didn't make it. Although it was FAA approved it was really more of a prototype which got shelved by the many changes in Mooney ownership in the late 60's-early 70's. The lessons learned called for a completely new design in the 80's with the M30 301 prototype, which still never got produced. Some of the lessons learned in the M30 301 ended up in the TBM 700, mainly the wing.

If you want a pressurized piston airplane, save a ton of money, and actually have an airplane you can fly - buy a Piper Malibu, Mirage or M350. It's a proven design and has support. Be prepared for $10,000-$15,000 annuals regularly and some more expensive ones once in awhile. 

[AJ88V]

34 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

It says a lot about the ability for your average Mooney owner to manage maintainence on these airplanes when the only two M22s which will probably ever be flown somewhat reliably are owned by the Pietsch family who have been a Mooney Service Center in North Dakota for over 70 years (https://minotaerocenter.com/about-us/) and the Maxwell family who have had a Mooney Service Center for decades. (It's my understanding that Pietsch has owned the airplane since new and Maxwells took on their project just because they can.)

Thanks for posting this @LANCECASPER!   Absolutely love the link to Minot Aero.  My Lord!  Walking into an aircraft showroom like it's a car dealership.  And being able to actually afford it.  What joy that would be!

34 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

The rest of the small M22 fleet are rotting away on the ramp or are endless projects in hangars with little hope of ever flying again. Support for the engines is virtually non-existent. The parts to keep the airframe pressurized didn't work very well to begin with and have been out of production for decades. There is a reason this airplane didn't make it. Although it was FAA approved it was really more of a prototype which got shelved by the many changes in Mooney ownership in the late 60's-early 70's. The lessons learned called for a completely new design in the 80's with the M30 301 prototype, which still never got produced. Some of the lessons learned in the M30 301 ended up in the TBM 700, mainly the wing.

I'd think an IA/A&P could figure out some reasonable fixes for the bigger bugs in the M22 pressurization systems (I'd like to think I could as an engineer with multiple stints through the aerospace industry).  And even if you couldn't, the plane could still be a nice, BIG flyable high-altitude bird with supplemental O2.

FWIW, my home shop, White Hawk Aviation @ KCJR https://www.aopa.org/destinations/business/33316 does a fine job keeping the Navion fleet flying.  They tolerate my little Mooney , but are one of the biggest shops specializing in Navions.  Always three or four of those in various states of repair or restoration.  Might end up getting one myself.

[EricJ]

4 hours ago, AJ88V said:

I'd think an IA/A&P could figure out some reasonable fixes for the bigger bugs in the M22 pressurization systems (I'd like to think I could as an engineer with multiple stints through the aerospace industry).  And even if you couldn't, the plane could still be a nice, BIG flyable high-altitude bird with supplemental O2.

I think the bigger issue for the M22 is the engine.   It's an orphan and tough to keep going.   If there was an easy way to swap in a more suitable engine, I think you'd see more of these flying.

4 hours ago, AJ88V said:

FWIW, my home shop, White Hawk Aviation @ KCJR https://www.aopa.org/destinations/business/33316 does a fine job keeping the Navion fleet flying.  They tolerate my little Mooney , but are one of the biggest shops specializing in Navions.  Always three or four of those in various states of repair or restoration.  Might end up getting one myself.

Navions are pretty cool, for sure, but it seems like they don't like to get flown much, either.   
 

[Igor_U]

7 hours ago, 201er said:

“I am asking $135,000 at this time
Make Me an offer or Trade I can’t refuse”

Send Tony @carusoam from Jersey down there, I’m sure he knows a lot about offers you can’t refuse 

What? Like horses head in the bed? 

[AJ88V]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

I think the bigger issue for the M22 is the engine.   It's an orphan and tough to keep going.   If there was an easy way to swap in a more suitable engine, I think you'd see more of these flying.

Navions are pretty cool, for sure, but it seems like they don't like to get flown much, either.   
 

I thought the Beech engine was a close match.  Given that the certified engine is unsupported, the swap should have a better chance of being approved.  Seeing what they are doing to those old Navions.... 

Speaking of which, we have maybe 15 Navions at Culpeper.  They are in the air all the time down here in Virginia.  I really am considering getting one.  Just having a hard time justifying higher fuel burn for slower speed, but it has different charms (like room, handling, and aero properties no Mooney can match), just not speed and efficiency! LOL!!!

[EricJ]

I think if I was going to buy something old and quirky it'd probably be a T-34 or something like that.   Maybe an IAR 823.  It probably depends on your personal aviation masochism tolerance at the time.

[MikeOH]

....I think it depends mostly on your masochism tolerance for wanton AMU departure at the time