Shoulder Belt?

[Marauder]

And besides who wants to look this if they survive:




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[Raptor05121]

14 hours ago, kpaul said:

@Raptor05121 I will give you the shoulder harness/seat belts out of my F when I upgrade to the AMSAFE airbags. I plan on doing the upgrade this fall as part of my annual.  $3000 is not even aviation expensive and if it is ever needed it will be priceless.

Please let me know, I'm seriously looking now

[Skates97]

On 7/29/2018 at 8:07 PM, aviatoreb said:

Ok who here where’s their shoulder seatbelts in the back seat of a car?

I always do, on the rare occasion I am in the back seat. If anyone is in my car I also remind them (usually a problem with just teenagers) to wear them correctly, not down across their arm. Constantly had to remind my wife's teenage daughter to wear it correctly. One day she was in the backseat of a friend's car with the shoulder belt across her arm instead of over the shoulder when her friend rear-ended someone on an on-ramp going about 20 mph. She ended up crumpled on the floor boards in the backseat because the seat belt couldn't do its job. Thankfully no major injuries but she had a lot of bruises. I didn't have to remind her again to wear it correctly...

On 7/30/2018 at 6:57 AM, Oldguy said:

Always, and require those riding when I drive to do so as well.

Alex, please check with other C owners to see how they accomplished attaching theirs. While I cannot find it at this point, I recall an item in Kathryn's Report about a Bo pilot running out of fuel and having enough altitude to contact ATC and letting them know he was setting down in a grassy field. He had plenty of time, a chosen landing site he felt was not hazardous, and still managed to kill himself. One picture in the report showed his GNS 530 with a cracked screen where his head impacted it. He had shoulder harnesses, but did not fasten his. Having lived through a crash with a shoulder harness on, I cannot fathom why anyone would choose not to wear one if it is available.

Alex, it was the first thing I did with my plane when I got it. The left side was a bear to get the bracket on but the right side was a piece of cake. With everything else you have done on your plane I am sure it is well within your capabilities to do yourself and then get inspected and signed off. Just know the LH is a pain, take your time and do it first. Then when you get the the RH you will breeze through it.

On 7/30/2018 at 7:43 AM, DanM20C said:

I won't fly in a plane without them. Like Mike and others here I owe my life to shoulder harness. I had a diagonal bruise across my chest for a month after my little mishap, and still broke my jaw.  There is no way I would have survived without them.

Alex follow the link that @kortopates posted above.  The kit for the hard points is only $17.50.  Since you wrench on your own plane you can do the install.  The Alpha belts are $370 each seat, but you may find a some used belts someplace for next to nothing. Think of it as a one time insurance premium.

Cheers,

Dan

My DPE won't fly in a plane without them. The school where I took my lessons doesn't have them in all the planes but when that DPE is coming they always make sure whichever plane he is in has them because they know he won't fly without them. His son years earlier had an off field landing that was going really well until it wasn't. He put the plane down in a field and just before touching down the wheels caught a small berm and it flipped the plane. His son spent months in the hospital and fortunately made a full recovery. He said that had the plane his son was flying had shoulder harnesses he likely would have walked away with minor injuries. 

[ShuRugal]

On 7/29/2018 at 1:55 PM, carusoam said:

There is some challenge with getting them mounted... but enough MSers have done this update there is no longer any fear of getting it done....

Go seat belts!

Best regards,

-a-

You ain't kidding there.  I've been trying to get my kit mounted, and after working with my A&P on it on two separate occasions now, we have concluded that it will not be a one-day event...

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, Skates97 said:

My DPE won't fly in a plane without them. The school where I took my lessons doesn't have them in all the planes but when that DPE is coming they always make sure whichever plane he is in has them because they know he won't fly without them. His son years earlier had an off field landing that was going really well until it wasn't. He put the plane down in a field and just before touching down the wheels caught a small berm and it flipped the plane. His son spent months in the hospital and fortunately made a full recovery. He said that had the plane his son was flying had shoulder harnesses he likely would have walked away with minor injuries. 

The CFII I've been flying with thinks you're safer without them.   I don't agree, and I think it's hard to argue that you're not a LOT better off with a shoulder restraint.

The Arizona Pilot's Association does an annual GA Accident Reduction and Mitigation Symposium, which covers all of the fatal GA accidents involving AZ pilots from the previous year.   A couple of years ago there was a Comanche crash with a family aboard, and the Mom perished as her side did not have a shoulder harness and she got a head injury from the panel.  Dad had a harness and was fine.  That's anecdotal, but it's also easy to understand the mechanics behind it. 

A buddy I fly with a lot has an ancient Cherokee with no shoulder harnesses.   He's gotten used to my reel harnesses and is coming around to the idea of getting them for his airplane.   I hope he gets them soon.

[jaylw314]

50 minutes ago, EricJ said:

The CFII I've been flying with thinks you're safer without them.   I don't agree, and I think it's hard to argue that you're not a LOT better off with a shoulder restraint.

The Arizona Pilot's Association does an annual GA Accident Reduction and Mitigation Symposium, which covers all of the fatal GA accidents involving AZ pilots from the previous year.   A couple of years ago there was a Comanche crash with a family aboard, and the Mom perished as her side did not have a shoulder harness and she got a head injury from the panel.  Dad had a harness and was fine.  That's anecdotal, but it's also easy to understand the mechanics behind it. 

A buddy I fly with a lot has an ancient Cherokee with no shoulder harnesses.   He's gotten used to my reel harnesses and is coming around to the idea of getting them for his airplane.   I hope he gets them soon.

I imagine it's the same mentality Americans have with the advent of belts and airbags in cars.  The arguments were:

"Seat belts are actually more dangerous because you will have a harder time escaping afterwards."
"Seat belts are actually more dangerous because it's better to be ejected so you won't be trapped in a burning car."
"Shoulder belts are actually more dangerous because it restricted your ability to look around so you're more likely to get in a crash"
"Shoulder belts are actually more dangerous because your more likely to have a neck and chest injury."
"Airbags are actually more dangerous because they could accidently inflate and cause an accident."
"Airbags are actually more dangerous because the detonation could injure or kill you."

and don't forget:

"Seat belts, shoulder belts, and airbags are actually more dangerous because the auto industry wants to kill you to prevent you from suing them."
"Seat belts, shoulder belts, and airbags are actually more dangerous because they are a way for the federal government to control our lives."

and finally:

"Seat belts, shoulder belts, and airbags are actually more dangerous because they don't allow me to choose the manner of my horrible death, which is my right"

 

 

[Guest]

My best friend owes his life to wearing Hooker double shoulder belts after a forced landing and flipping upside down when it stopped.  It’s not the flying it’s the stopping your head with the instrument panel that will get you.

Clarence

[mike_elliott]

1 hour ago, M20Doc said:

My best friend owes his life to wearing Hooker double shoulder belts after a forced landing and flipping upside down when it stopped.  It’s not the flying it’s the stopping your head with the instrument panel that will get you.

Clarence

Stewie was a lucky guy you were there to complete the rescue, Clarence

[carusoam]

Hooker was at KOSH...

In case one doesn’t think they know Aircraft safety...

http://www.hookerharness.com/aviation.html

I know some of their aviation history, but didn’t think I was going to see them at the show... for some reason...?

Best regards,

-a-

[bradp]

Anyone know if it's possible to install shoulder harnesses in the rear seats of a "bench model" F/early J?  When I had the interior out last time I didn't notice any potential anchor points / attache points for a harness.

 

Thanks,

 

Brad

[Marauder]

Anyone know if it's possible to install shoulder harnesses in the rear seats of a "bench model" F/early J?  When I had the interior out last time I didn't notice any potential anchor points / attache points for a harness.
 
Thanks,
 
Brad

The only anchor point is the rear most part of the roll cage and I think that is too far forward. You can see the black tube behind the window in the picture below.

The only other place I can think of is if you can use one of those belts that drape over the seat back and can attach to spar somehow.




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[Guest]

21 hours ago, bradp said:

Anyone know if it's possible to install shoulder harnesses in the rear seats of a "bench model" F/early J?  When I had the interior out last time I didn't notice any potential anchor points / attache points for a harness.

 

Thanks,

 

Brad

Under the insulation in Chris’ picture are 2 bolts which hold the tail cone to the steel structure.  I fabricated a steel bracket from 0.090” 4130 steel plate and attached it to those bolts.  I added a 1/4” platenut to the bracket to attach the shoulder belt.  The attachment I used was at point 111.

 

Clarence

Edited August 4, 2018 by M20Doc

[Brandontwalker]

On ‎8‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 4:31 PM, M20Doc said:

Under the insulation in Chris’ picture are 2 bolts which hold the tail cone to the steel structure.  I fabricated a steel bracket from 0.090” 4130 steel plate and attached it to those bolts.  I added a 1/4” platenut to the bracket to attach the shoulder belt.  The attachment I used was at point 111.

 

Clarence

Clarence, thank you for always having such valuable contributions to the forum.  I have been looking for ways to add back seat shoulder belts for some time now because my two daughters are often back seat passengers and I would like something more than just lap belts to protect them.  My thought is to install reel inertial belts in the front and move the existing front shoulder belts to the back.  Were you able to reuse the existing hardware at point 111, or did you have to use longer bolts?  Also, was any other hardware required?  If you have pictures of the finished job, I would love to see them. 

[xcrmckenna]

I have shoulder belts up front with just lap belts in the back. If anyone has pictures and more details how they added shoulder belts in the back of bench seat Mooney’s I would love to see them.


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[MyNameIsNobody]

On 7/29/2018 at 11:00 PM, aviatoreb said:

True - I meant who where’s it?

Wears it?

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

Wears it?

Yeah...UMMMM....I majored in math.

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Brandontwalker said:

Clarence, thank you for always having such valuable contributions to the forum.  I have been looking for ways to add back seat shoulder belts for some time now because my two daughters are often back seat passengers and I would like something more than just lap belts to protect them.  My thought is to install reel inertial belts in the front and move the existing front shoulder belts to the back.  Were you able to reuse the existing hardware at point 111, or did you have to use longer bolts?  Also, was any other hardware required?  If you have pictures of the finished job, I would love to see them. 

Unfortunately I didn’t save a drawing of the anchor points I made, but can describe them.  

I bent two pieces of 0.090” 4130 plate to a 90 degree angle, about 2” long.  I measured the spacing between the existing 2 bolts at point 111 in the IPC picture above, and drilled holes to match these bolts. I filed and adjusted this side of the angle until it fit over the existing bolts clearing anything in the way so there is no unwanted contact.  The other leg of the angle goings forward, in this leg of the angle I drilled a 1/4” hole and attached a 1/4-28 nutplate.  The bracket was cleaned, primed and painted.

I removed the nuts from the bolts and slipped the bracket over the bolts, reinstalled the nuts with a thin washer and torqued them.  

Reinstall the plastic side panel and drill a hole to allow a bolt to pass through the plastic panel and screw into the nutplate.  I turned a bushing from some 4130 round stock, with a 1/4” hole and the outside turned to fit the anchor hole in the shoulder belt.  Install a new AN4 bolt of the correct length along with an AN970-4 penny through the belt anchor and bushing, into the nutplate.  Torque as required. Replace the rear seat lap belt to fit the new shoulder belt.

Hope this helps.

Clarence

[MyNameIsNobody]

5 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Yeah...UMMMM....I majored in math.

I’d trade for that skill and your bird in a heartbeat

 

[aviatoreb]

3 hours ago, MyNameIsNobody said:

I’d trade for that skill and your bird in a heartbeat

 

You keep your metikulous zpeling.  Im keeping my awzome 4 bladed, new shiny painted, new leathr, uber-duber-cool airplyne. :-)

Edited August 21, 2018 by aviatoreb

[Stephen]

On 7/29/2018 at 12:42 PM, RLCarter said:

Was the first thing I added

^   ditto, thanks to guidance from MS guidance. 

[WaynePierce]

One of the things I take most pride in the Cherokee ownership that's for sale.... was insisting that we put shoulder harnesses in the front seats. We went with the hooker style (they may be hooker, I don't know) with double shoulder harnesses in the front seat. It's a 66 Cherokee so the front seat is what any back seater is going to hit and I don't know if any of the other partners have anyone in the back seat anyway. The instruments/yoke is very close to the front seaters.

I'm happy to say the 85 201SE I'm purchasing next week has 4 place shoulder harnesses.

[0TreeLemur]

On 8/20/2018 at 6:17 PM, M20Doc said:

Unfortunately I didn’t save a drawing of the anchor points I made, but can describe them.  

I bent two pieces of 0.090” 4130 plate to a 90 degree angle, about 2” long.  I measured the spacing between the existing 2 bolts at point 111 in the IPC picture above, and drilled holes to match these bolts. I filed and adjusted this side of the angle until it fit over the existing bolts clearing anything in the way so there is no unwanted contact.  The other leg of the angle goings forward, in this leg of the angle I drilled a 1/4” hole and attached a 1/4-28 nutplate.  The bracket was cleaned, primed and painted.

I removed the nuts from the bolts and slipped the bracket over the bolts, reinstalled the nuts with a thin washer and torqued them.  

Reinstall the plastic side panel and drill a hole to allow a bolt to pass through the plastic panel and screw into the nutplate.  I turned a bushing from some 4130 round stock, with a 1/4” hole and the outside turned to fit the anchor hole in the shoulder belt.  Install a new AN4 bolt of the correct length along with an AN970-4 penny through the belt anchor and bushing, into the nutplate.  Torque as required. Replace the rear seat lap belt to fit the new shoulder belt.

Hope this helps.

Clarence

Clarence,  ( @M20Doc)   do you have any photos of this setup?   I'm getting ready to start looking for shoulder belts for the back seat in my M20C and I would really like to see how you did it.

Thanks.

Fred

[Brandontwalker]

Fred,

I used Clarence’s method and got a field approval by my local FSDO. I still have a mock-up bracket I built at the hangar. I’ll take a picture and post it for you next time I go to the airport.  Basic metal working skills and a cheap MIG welder are all that you need.

Brandon

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, Brandontwalker said:

Fred,

I used Clarence’s method and got a field approval by my local FSDO. I still have a mock-up bracket I built at the hangar. I’ll take a picture and post it for you next time I go to the airport.  Basic metal working skills and a cheap MIG welder are all that you need.

Brandon

Nice to hear the the FAA thought it was OK!

Clarence

[Stan]

Getting back to Alex, GET THEM!!!!!!

Back in the late 80's, first plane, carb ice, flipped over in a muddy off field landing.

I mated with panel, panel won.

Two weeks in the hospital, which included one week in ICU.

Three months recuperation, then one week in hospital for brand new plastic or some such, forehead.

Mid 2000's, M20J engine failure on takeoff. 

We mated with a chain link fence, fence won, (first off airport aircraft carrier arrest (somewhat)). 

Walked away with a bruised shoulder.

Questions???