Flying with guns?

[MIm20c]

The past year has been busy getting used to the new plane. However, I’d like to get back into competitive shooting this fall. I’m aware of the TSA procedures for commercial airfare but I can’t say I’ve ever seen gun cases toted into the FBO’s I have frequented. 

Mainly looking at precision long rifle and USPSA matches (think large heavy rifles or lots of ammunition). 

Obviously planning on locking the cases and storing the ammo in a different case. 

Anyone else utilizing their plane for this?  Tricks to keep everyone else happy?

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

It might be where I live...I often see people carrying soft-sided shotgun cases at airports, (during hunting season, at least),  including ones with limited ramp access.  They are often wearing hunter orange, too.  I have never seen anyone care, other than to ask what they are hunting.

[xcrmckenna]

I carry a pistol on me all the time but it’s concealed. Last hunting season I flew into two fbo’s and had long riffles with me. They were signature fbo’s. With my other gear and the riffles no one really paid much attention. Depending on the case some people might not have a clue what it is, and those that do hopefully they will have the understanding it’s a nonissue. 

 

And the ga fbo’s that I’ve been to there are not a lot of people let alone a fence so I think you’ll be fine. 

[1964-M20E]

should be no problem I've flown many times with my side arm concealed and I know sometimes it is visible getting in and out of the plane. 

[jlunseth]

Gun regulation is a matter of state law, meaning it is going to be different in every state you land in.  Some states are more hostile to guns than others.  As far as transporting the firearm across state lines is concerned, there fortunately is a Federal law, called the Firearms Owners Protection Act.  It provides:

Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

(Added Pub. L. 99–360, § 1(a), July 8, 1986, 100 Stat. 766.)

 

A few years ago I had occasion to do some legal research on the law and the issue of transportation, and the cases were somewhat hair raising.  Hostile states, and I remember NJ in particular, were using every excuse they could to get around the law.

 

A basic premise of the law as you can see in the language, is that is allows transportation from one place where you are lawfully allowed to possess and carry the firearm, to another where you are allowed to lawfully possess and carry it.  Once you get to your destination, local law applies.  There literally are cases where people were arrested and prosecuted because they had arrived at their destination and then drove around for a day or two with the gun in their car before unpacking, or just forgetting it was there.  There are also cases where someone, say, living in NJ and lawfully possessing a gun there, drove to NY for an errand, and were arrested, and it was asserted they were not transporting from destination to destination, so the law did not apply.  Remember that in East Coast states and in CA in particular, if you are arrested, you will face a local judge who may not be a fan of guns.

 

Generally speaking - and this is truly a generalization, you need to carefully check both local and state law at your destination - long guns are not a problem if they are carried either broken down, or in a locked case or in a locked and inaccessible location such as the trunk of a car, and so long as the ammunition is separate.  You must assume that handguns will always be a problem unless you have a conceal and carry permit that covers you for the state and the locality.

 

We have flown from Minneapolis out to the Dakotas many times (we being my hunting partner and I) and never had a problem.  I have also traveled with shotguns to competitions on the East Coast, to Europe, and into Canada.  Each and every time I would research the laws and follow them scrupulously.  I have never had a problem.  But a couple of decades ago I went to Spain for a shoot.  I knew, from my research, that I had to get a permit from the Spanish Guardia Civil on arriving at the airport.  Well, that part of the airport was under construction and I had a devil of a time finding it, but I got my permit.  I was at a World Championship with several hundred other shooters from many countries.  On the way back out, a Brit had not registered his gun on the way in, finding no place to do it.  I had to intervene on his behalf and, in very broken Spanish, I explained what happened.  The Colonel who was in charge was incensed with the situation, and my friend was very nearly arrested and his gun confiscated.  The fact that there were several of us there, all having come from the same fairly prestigious Championship, probably was what saved the guy. 

 

Always do your research, never assume.

[jlunseth]

I just read the couple of posts on concealed carry.  Fine if you get away with it.  There are a number of states with reciprocity laws that recognize a conceal carry permit from specific other jurisdictions, but never assume.  Your conceal carry permit from Minnesota won't keep you out of jail in NY.  If you want to conceal carry, check where you have reciprocity, if you don't have reciprocity, unload and case the gun in a lockable case.  Try here: https://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_reciprocity_maps.html

I am sure there are guys who fly around thinking its ok that their aircraft is "just a little" out of annual, or its ok if they are not IFR current, they can accept a clearance anyway.  Don't do that.

[xcrmckenna]

9 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

I just read the couple of posts on concealed carry.  Fine if you get away with it.  There are a number of states with reciprocity laws that recognize a conceal carry permit from specific other jurisdictions, but never assume.  Your conceal carry permit from Minnesota won't keep you out of jail in NY.  If you want to conceal carry, check where you have reciprocity, if you don't have reciprocity, unload and case the gun in a lockable case.  Try here: https://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_reciprocity_maps.html

I am sure there are guys who fly around thinking its ok that their aircraft is "just a little" out of annual, or its ok if they are not IFR current, they can accept a clearance anyway.  Don't do that.

I don’t think the op was asking about the law, he was more or less asking as long as he was following the law is he going to have any problems with packing his riffles through an fbo. And the easy answer to that is as long as he is following the law and is permitted to have the firearms at that point he shouldn’t have any issues. 

 

He was also also asking about riffles and not hand guns  in most states they are handled very differently. And he shouldn’t have many issues with a long gun  

 

I know when its leagal to carry my fire arm and when its not. How to check it and how to secure it. 

 

I have law enforcement back ground and without going in to it I was letting the op know I carry a gun on me most of the time and understand his concerns. 

[Skates97]

6 minutes ago, xcrmckenna said:

I don’t think the op was asking about the law, he was more or less asking as long as he was following the law is he going to have any problems with packing his riffles through an fbo. And the easy answer to that is as long as he is following the law and is permitted to have the firearms at that point he shouldn’t have any issues. 

He was also also asking about riffles and not hand guns  in most states they are handled very differently. And he shouldn’t have many issues with a long gun  

I know when its leagal to carry my fire arm and when its not. How to check it and how to secure it. 

I have law enforcement back ground and without going in to it I was letting the op know I carry a gun on me most of the time and understand his concerns. 

Yep, make sure you check the laws before going, and even if you have been there before check them every time as they often change...

Even here in the People's Republic you shouldn't have a problem as long as everything is locked up like it is supposed to be. I know the OP isn't talking about commercial travel, but I've flown commercial out of John Wayne (SNA) before with my handgun without issues. It has to be in a locked case, you tell the ticket counter you have a firearm to declare, they give you a form to fill out, and it goes in the checked luggage. If you are flying your own plane that makes it easier and shouldn't have any issues walking through an FBO and out onto the ramp with a gun case.

[N601RX]

Unloaded long guns are much simpler to go from state to state. However if you are concealed carrying you can get yourself into trouble in a hurry when crossing state or even city lines. Just knowing that the state you are about to enter will accept your home state’s concealed carry permit isn’t enough. You also have to abide by all gun laws in the state you are about to enter. For example some states require you to immediately notify Leo you are carrying if approached by them for the permit or be valid.  My home state does not. Magazine capacity can also get you in trouble in a hurry. Some states only allow 10 rnds, my home state doesn’t care. Unfortunately the list goes on and on. Cities are also passing their own laws, google Deerfield, Indiana. 

[RLCarter]

Took a buddy up once and handed him a 20oz soft drink, locking blade knife and a pistol and told him GA was friendlier, he was the TSA supervisor at one of the local airports. Long guns, pistols and ammunition are perfectly leagal to transport in your aircraft. 

[PaulM]

#1 Don't ask, don't tell..  random boxes are random boxes..lots of hunters fly.

#2, Do not fly into Logan..  Massport has internal rules against any weapons on the airport, exemption only for LEO...   as an endpoint you loose the traveling coverage, so only MA law applies. 

#3.. In general while you are "traveling"  ie gas stops.. even required overnight, then the Federal interstate rules govern, but the states (Like NJ) ignore them (You win on appeal, how nice).  Once you have reached your destination (no Longer traveling) then the remote state laws govern.   With all of the Assault weapons, mag limits, etc know the other state's laws. 

FBO's don't care, and don't want to know... you aren't violating any laws, and there are no part 91 storage requirements, but I would make sure that if I had an emergency landing that I wouldn't be particularly incompatible with that state's laws.... as the trip has ended.   Most allow all travel with secured firearms.. only a few require special rules (NY, pistols with license or confirmed attendance of a shooting competition) .. NFA items are another tier. 

 

 

[kris_adams]

52 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

Try here: https://www.usacarry.com/concealed_carry_permit_reciprocity_maps.html

My conceal carry is from GA.  I knew GA had a lot of reciprocity but this map is awesome!  Thanks!

[Rumblestrip]

9 hours ago, MIm20c said:

The past year has been busy getting used to the new plane. However, I’d like to get back into competitive shooting this fall. I’m aware of the TSA procedures for commercial airfare but I can’t say I’ve ever seen gun cases toted into the FBO’s I have frequented. 

Mainly looking at precision long rifle and USPSA matches (think large heavy rifles or lots of ammunition). 

Obviously planning on locking the cases and storing the ammo in a different case. 

Anyone else utilizing their plane for this?  Tricks to keep everyone else happy?

Come on over to the East Side, for some great USPSA matches.  1st Sunday is at Brooklyn, about 2 miles from the Speedway.  Second Sunday is Livingston Gun Club, about in the landing pattern for the Brighton airport, 3rd Sunday is at DSC in Rochester, and the 4th Sunday is at Raccoon Hunters right between Willow Run and Detroit Metro.

[Guest]

International borders will pose a problem as well.  It’s a standard question for returning residents and visitors alike.

Clarence

[FloridaMan]

Some FBOs have policies against firearms and supposedly FOPA doesn’t protect you against laws that restrict standard capacity (30rd) magazines. I would suggest that you pack your arms and supplies so they don’t look like rifle cases (Golf bags, tennis racket, musical instrument or unusually shaped rifle bags). I believe that the FBOs are wrong in a lot of areas, but there are much better things to argue with FBOs about and FBOs are pretty low on the list when it comes to violation of gun rights. Keep in mind that weather or mechanical issues might have you diverting. 

There are a lot of weird politics going on regarding modern sporting rifles. I watched thousands of shrieking teenagers march down the street in front of my house screaming “what do we want? Gun Control? When do we want it? Now!” And I live in Florida. I had no idea there was such a level of organization among ideologically possessed individuals.  

[rbridges]

8 hours ago, Kris_Adams said:

My conceal carry is from GA.  I knew GA had a lot of reciprocity but this map is awesome!  Thanks!

I looked at it before. You kind of see a pattern. Being from Georgia, you hardly think twice when you see someone carrying a gun. 

[Hank]

58 minutes ago, rbridges said:

Being from Georgia in the country, you I hardly think twice when you see notice someone carrying a gun. 

FTFY.

[N601RX]

1 hour ago, rbridges said:

I looked at it before. You kind of see a pattern. Being from Georgia, you hardly think twice when you see someone carrying a gun. 

Likewise next door in Alabama I think more people are carrying than not. Our permits are good for up to 5 years and with very few exceptions let’s you carry anywhere, even in private business and at your employment provided you leave it in the car. I was renewing my permit a few months ago and asked the sheriff how many permits he had out. He said there was currently 9000 issued for our county. A quick check of the census shows that our county has 24,000 residents with 1/3 of them under the age of 18 which is min min age to get a permit. That leaves 9000 residents with ccw permit out of 16000 who are eligible to have one, about 56%.  That doesn’t include the thugs or others who are carrying illegally.  

[chrisk]

My last trip to Fredricksburg Tx (T82) I watched 3 hunters with AR15's getting into a R44 helicopter.  Presumably they were out to hunt hogs. --And no, the guns were not in cases.  No one seemed to pay any attention to them.

[M016576]

I’d recommend mounting the guns in the wings, just outboard of the fuel tanks.  Any closer and you’d have to start thinking about a synchronism mechanism.  Load the belts through the inspection doors.  Convergence should be set to about 350 yards.  

 

Then an it’s just a mafter of finding a bonanza or Cessna to roll in on.

 

 

 

oh...... you meant in the cabin....

[aviatoreb]

5 hours ago, M016576 said:

I’d recommend mounting the guns in the wings, just outboard of the fuel tanks.  Any closer and you’d have to start thinking about a synchronism mechanism.  Load the belts through the inspection doors.  Convergence should be set to about 350 yards.  

 

Then an it’s just a mafter of finding a bonanza or Cessna to roll in on.

 

 

 

oh...... you meant in the cabin....

Why not a small glass dome above the back seats roof so the gunner can the pivot his mounted gun and shot at will in all directions?

[Hank]

27 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Why not a small glass dome above the back seats roof so the gunner can the pivot his mounted gun and shot at will in all directions?

Still need to worry about synchronization when firing forward and low. And requires a second person to ride in the back seat, not as spacious in my plane as in yours. 

Edited April 28, 2018 by Hank

[Jim Peace]

how do you fly with these?

[Yetti]

Yes sometimes when you are too close and can't get a lock you have to switch to guns.

[Bravoman]

On 4/27/2018 at 12:19 PM, N601RX said:

Unloaded long guns are much simpler to go from state to state. However if you are concealed carrying you can get yourself into trouble in a hurry when crossing state or even city lines. Just knowing that the state you are about to enter will accept your home state’s concealed carry permit isn’t enough. You also have to abide by all gun laws in the state you are about to enter. For example some states require you to immediately notify Leo you are carrying if approached by them for the permit or be valid.  My home state does not. Magazine capacity can also get you in trouble in a hurry. Some states only allow 10 rnds, my home state doesn’t care. Unfortunately the list goes on and on. Cities are also passing their own laws, google Deerfield, Indiana. 

Most if not all states have preemption doctrines in place where local governments cannot enact laws or ordinances which are more restrictive than state laws on the subject.