New Member - Need Trusted Advice

[Stephen]

On 4/8/2018 at 10:00 PM, gsxrpilot said:

 the nicest one for sale anywhere in the country. Which over the course of the first year, will likely turn out to be the best financial deal.

 

This is *very* good advice ...

Edited April 16, 2018 by Stephen

[M20F-1968]

I didn't read the whole thread, but must comment on some of the initial pictures.  It seems that this plane was stored in an area of humidity given the corrosion on the Johnson Bar and the questions raised in the area of the inspection panel.  Having rebuilt a 1968 F into a very nice airplane, I must say that I bought a plane that I knew needed everything stripped and rebuilt, but there was no corrosion, hail, or damage history.  It was all stripping and starting from a clean airframe.  I know how much work that was.  The pictures of the plane you are considering raise questions of corrosion which may be a deal breaker.  If you are serious, I would open it all up and look first hand, or walk away and look for a cleaner airframe.

John Breda

[rpcc]

On 4/9/2018 at 6:23 PM, ValkyrieRider said:

Wow, I almost feel like I should be paying for this advise.  THANK YOU, I understand and agree with all.

Yeah - these guys deserve your financial support.  Best aviation forum period.  

[thinwing]

I think after years of owner ship of not only Mooneys ,but c,b,a,p mfd products,my advice is  if50k is the budget and you need a reliable ,weekly 300 nm range bird ,his (gasp) CFI s advice was probably correct.At 130 kts vs maybe 145 for the c model with no gear linkages to maintain,55 more horsepower,better useful load ,better ground handling ,rough strip capability...blasphemy I know!!

[Victor_Asp]

Hello,  I am researching Mooney's as my next plane.  With the retractable gear and low prop clearance I am seeing several gear up landings and/or prop strikes in the damage histories.  My questions are 1) does a full engine overhaul (~2000 hr) erase a prior prop strike? 2) what would be the best thing to find when researching a gear up landing?

[carusoam]

Victor,

What you are mostly describing is engine issues that are more specific to the lycoming engine or Continental for that matter...

1) The prop clearance isn’t that low... prop strikes occur when the pilot runs into things, misplaced towing devices, or falls into a hole, or something runs into the prop...  I think MS has one or two holes in the pavement experiences... a very small number.

Prop Strikes in the Mooney can be a bucking bronco type riding affair.  Normal transition training is enough to learn how to keep this from happening to yout machine.... look up Transition Training. How to get some.... if you get the porpoise, follow the procedure... the third bounce is the memorable one... look it up.

2) a proper OH would cover it, but so might a typical tear down and inspection.  Back in the day, the rules allowed checking the run-out of the crank shaft...  maintenance logic doesn’t allow this anymore... too many cracked shafts didn’t show any run-out... depending on how old the OH is in hours, an OH may be preffered compared to the tear down...

3) The most important thing is who did the corrective work, with what parts, and how well it gets documented...

An M20 is designed and built to withstand a typical GU landing...

4) A PPI should put extra focus on these areas to know everything is back in place properly... get familiar with what a PPI is, where to get one, how much one should cost... not getting one can cost a lot more than getting one...

Gear up landings are not very popular. They happen less than once(?) to every retractable plane over their 50 + year lifespan... or discuss the proper pricing with the seller...

When they happen, the entire history of the repairs is written in the logs...

If there is physical evidence of a GU landing, and not enough detail in the logs to cover the repairs... move to the next opportunity....

Go Mooney, because the other planes aren’t as good...

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best rgeards,

-a-

[Victor_Asp]

Thanks carusoam,

It sounds like good log book entries are what is needed to understand how things were corrected. I wonder then, if a Mooney seems to have a pretty low asking price and GU landing it may be because the documentation is poor or non-existent?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gsxrpilot]

53 minutes ago, Victor_Asp said:

 I wonder then, if a Mooney seems to have a pretty low asking price and GU landing it may be because the documentation is poor or non-existent?

That might be a reason... but there are lots of other reasons for pricing as well. With vintage airplanes and many of them around 50 years old, so much has changed that no two of them are alike. This means values will vary quite a bit as well. The one thing to note is that a notably low price on an airplane is rarely if ever, a good deal. 

If shopping for an M20C or an M20E, you want to find the nicest one available for sale. It will be the best deal. 

I've owned two Mooneys and each came with three gear up landings. But with properly done repairs, both were/are great airplanes.

[bradp]

Couldn’t agree with Paul more. If you think you’re getting a deal - you’re probably not.  You’d just move the “deal” savings you think you’re getting to the next couple of maintenance cycles. The only exception to this is a true project plane (and you know you’re getting a project plane).  Even then I bet @Raptor05121 has put as much cash into his bird as if he bought a more turn key variety- he’s handy and it seems like he enjoys the effort - if that’s not your thing then downtime can take away from the enjoyment significantly.  If there’s deferred maintenance you’ll be fixing those items and wanting a period of maintenance stability before you start eyeing upgrades.  

 

An around the patch saturday breakfast C172 is a different type of plane from a traveler / commuter that must have a respectable uptime / dispatch reliability. 

[Raptor05121]

Yup. I paid $16k for my bird, and in the past two years I have probably put $15k into it. So far I'm at $31k and I have a "timed-out" engine" and basic panel.

If I would have done it all over again, I would've saved cash for a bigger deposit on something with a nicer panel

[gsxrpilot]

Alex, @Raptor05121, is one of the hero's on this forum as one of the youngest Mooney owners in the country and for bringing N6744U back from the brink. But it hasn't been especially cheap and I'm sure that $15K doesn't include his time spent wrenching on it. We all followed the year long saga while he brought it back into flying shape.

The typical "good deal" doesn't exist in this hobby. Unlike finding a Porsche 911 in a barn with 200 original miles on it, the best deal you'll find on a vintage Mooney will be the one where the owner is still flying it regularly, has never been out of annual, has been updating the avionics over the years, and has been periodically upgraded with speed mods, paint, and/or interior. This seller will be one who still flies weekly and is upgrading to a newer long body, a twin, or maybe a TBM or Pilatus. He'll be asking top dollar for his C/D/E/F, but it will still be much less than 50% of what he's "invested". So when you find this plane, buy it quick as deals like this don't last. 

[Marauder]

47 minutes ago, Raptor05121 said:

Yup. I paid $16k for my bird, and in the past two years I have probably put $15k into it. So far I'm at $31k and I have a "timed-out" engine" and basic panel.

If I would have done it all over again, I would've saved cash for a bigger deposit on something with a nicer panel

If I fly in any more JetProps, my baby could be your baby. Picture yourself in a sleek, fast F model with all the bells and whistles. 

[jaylw314]

On ‎4‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 7:26 AM, Victor_Asp said:

Thanks carusoam,

It sounds like good log book entries are what is needed to understand how things were corrected. I wonder then, if a Mooney seems to have a pretty low asking price and GU landing it may be because the documentation is poor or non-existent?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

These days, most sellers are or should be willing to send scanned copies of log entries or whole logbooks to a potential seller.  It's just kind of expected.  FWIW my M20J had a prop strike 10 years ago, and the logbook documented the teardown and inspection of the previous engine, which was since replaced.  There was no documented gear up repairs, nor is their any evidence on the plane, so I can assume it was not a gear up landing.

I did a PPI on another aircraft, and the mechanic commented that the exhaust looked shorter than normal.  Sure enough, in the logbooks, there was a prop strike with some additional repairs that were suggestive of a gear up landing.

[Skates97]

6 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Alex, @Raptor05121, is one of the hero's on this forum as one of the youngest Mooney owners in the country and for bringing N6744U back from the brink. But it hasn't been especially cheap and I'm sure that $15K doesn't include his time spent wrenching on it. We all followed the year long saga while he brought it back into flying shape.

The typical "good deal" doesn't exist in this hobby. Unlike finding a Porsche 911 in a barn with 200 original miles on it, the best deal you'll find on a vintage Mooney will be the one where the owner is still flying it regularly, has never been out of annual, has been updating the avionics over the years, and has been periodically upgraded with speed mods, paint, and/or interior. This seller will be one who still flies weekly and is upgrading to a newer long body, a twin, or maybe a TBM or Pilatus. He'll be asking top dollar for his C/D/E/F, but it will still be much less than 50% of what he's "invested". So when you find this plane, buy it quick as deals like this don't last. 

This was who I bought mine from. In the pics that he sent there was the tail of another Mooney in his hangar so I asked about it. That turned out to be the reason he was selling, his response was "My brother in law upgraded to a Meridian so I got his old throw away plane which happens to be a 2003 Ovation II, or an M20R." He had been flying the plane I bought on a regular basis. The paint was old but it was still in great shape as a result of living in a hangar since at least the late 80's which was when they had bought it. It had some mods done to it, tanks resealed recently by Wetwingologists (right tank does leak a little if I put over 20 gallons in it but they they would fix under warranty if I flew it to them), the panel had been updated some (although only VFR), the interior had been redone and was nice, etc... The engine had about 1,400 hours on it but was running regularly, not making metal, good compression. The price we agreed upon was more than what the bank valued it at so I had to put extra down on it above the 15% minimum that they required, but I felt it was worth what I was paying for it.

Since I bought it the only money I "had" to put into it was plugs/wires, a generator (123 hours after purchase), and the 500 hour mag inspection that I knew was coming due when I bought it (they were at 437 hours when I bought it). I've also done some other things to it but none of them were required to keep it in the air.

I should find some wood to knock on but 16 months later and a little over 170 hours I haven't had any major issues.