A few questions from a new Mooney owner

[AaronC]

Hey everyone. 

New Mooney owner here, and just have a few questions. I've searched the forum for all of these, and either haven't found an answer, or it didn't quite answer it fully. I will be doing my CFI checkride in the airplane next month, and since I've been practicing in an Arrow for a while, I'm trying to get the differences worked out. Some of these are knit-picky, but just trying to find questions the examiner may ask so I'm prepared with a good answer.

We have a 62 M20C with every speed mod put in they could have (we bought it like that).

1. When I put the gear down, the gear down light comes on. It's controlled by the Johnson bar being put in the up position and closing the switch. Is there another way to verify the gear is down from in the cockpit? Is there even a way you can have the johnson bar up, and the gear not actually be locked?

2. The previous owners replaced the generator with an alternator. I'm getting 14 volts while the engine is running from my volt meter, so I'm guessing It's a 14 volt system. Any idea how I can find out the amperage?  

3. Cant seem to find the glide range for the C model, but even if I did, I'm sure mine would be different since it's all modded up. Since the glide would be different with every wind scenario, what do you guys use for a base?

4. Anyone know if we have a KOEL (kinds of operations equipment list)? I have the Owners manual, and the AFM from Mooney, but haven't seen one.

5. Speaking of it being all modded up, do you think the examiner would expect some of the numbers to be different, and me not use the POH numbers for all of the Vspeeds. Vg would be different, and maybe even Vx and Vy. I may be over thinking this, I just want to be prepared. 

Any advice on the commercial maneuvers? I've practiced them a couple times, and I'm pretty much there, it is just definitely different than the Piper. The only thing I haven't practiced yet is the power-off 180. I'll probably start getting back into those in the next week.

Any other advice? 

Thanks so much.

[gsxrpilot]

29 minutes ago, AaronC said:

New Mooney owner here, and just have a few questions. I've searched the forum for all of these, and either haven't found an answer, or it didn't quite answer it fully. I will be doing my CFI checkride in the airplane next month, and since I've been practicing in an Arrow for a while, I'm trying to get the differences worked out. Some of these are knit-picky, but just trying to find questions the examiner may ask so I'm prepared with a good answer.

We have a 62 M20C with every speed mod put in they could have (we bought it like that).

1. When I put the gear down, the gear down light comes on. It's controlled by the Johnson bar being put in the up position and closing the switch. Is there another way to verify the gear is down from in the cockpit? Is there even a way you can have the johnson bar up, and the gear not actually be locked?

2. The previous owners replaced the generator with an alternator. I'm getting 14 volts while the engine is running from my volt meter, so I'm guessing It's a 14 volt system. Any idea how I can find out the amperage?  

3. Cant seem to find the glide range for the C model, but even if I did, I'm sure mine would be different since it's all modded up. Since the glide would be different with every wind scenario, what do you guys use for a base?

4. Anyone know if we have a KOEL (kinds of operations equipment list)? I have the Owners manual, and the AFM from Mooney, but haven't seen one.

5. Speaking of it being all modded up, do you think the examiner would expect some of the numbers to be different, and me not use the POH numbers for all of the Vspeeds. Vg would be different, and maybe even Vx and Vy. I may be over thinking this, I just want to be prepared. 

Any advice on the commercial maneuvers? I've practiced them a couple times, and I'm pretty much there, it is just definitely different than the Piper. The only thing I haven't practiced yet is the power-off 180. I'll probably start getting back into those in the next week.

Any other advice? 

Thanks so much.

We have a 62 M20C with every speed mod put in they could have (we bought it like that). - Well done. You'll love this airplane. A fully modded C can be a 150 knot machine on very little fuel.

1. When I put the gear down, the gear down light comes on. It's controlled by the Johnson bar being put in the up position and closing the switch. Is there another way to verify the gear is down from in the cockpit? Is there even a way you can have the johnson bar up, and the gear not actually be locked?
-- If you pull the throttle back without the gear down, you'll hear the horn. Even after seeing the green light, it's good to give the johnson bar a swift and sharp tug to ensure it's fully seated in the block. You can also check by trying to slide your thumbnail over the top of the Johnson bar between it and the block. If you can, it's not seated/locked. If you can't, it is.  Also, verify the function of the green/red light while flying with gear retracted, but sticking a finger up inside the block and depressing the switch. This way you ensure the green light is working and not burnt out before dropping the gear. If the Johnson bar is seated/locked in place, the gear is locked. It is a very simple and fool proof system that doesn't require any backup according to the FAA.

2. The previous owners replaced the generator with an alternator. I'm getting 14 volts while the engine is running from my volt meter, so I'm guessing It's a 14 volt system. Any idea how I can find out the amperage?  
-- Definitely a 14 volt system. All M20C's are 14 volts. If you don't have an amp meter, you won't be able to determine amps. 

3. Cant seem to find the glide range for the C model, but even if I did, I'm sure mine would be different since it's all modded up. Since the glide would be different with every wind scenario, what do you guys use for a base?
-- You should be able to calculate the glide range using the numbers given in the OM. There's a thread on here somewhere about how to calculate glide ration for the ForeFlight glide rings feature. The same procedure would apply. I wouldn't expect the speed mods to make too much of a difference at low speeds and personally wouldn't mention any modifications to the DPE.

4. Anyone know if we have a KOEL (kinds of operations equipment list)? I have the Owners manual, and the AFM from Mooney, but haven't seen one.
-- The Owners manual that comes with the C is VERY basic information and there was never a proper POH published. It's what we've got.

5. Speaking of it being all modded up, do you think the examiner would expect some of the numbers to be different, and me not use the POH numbers for all of the Vspeeds. Vg would be different, and maybe even Vx and Vy. I may be over thinking this, I just want to be prepared. 
-- Again, I wouldn't mention the speed mods to the examiner and would use the numbers in the book. Just my $0.02

Any other advice? -- Just enjoy it! It's a fantastic airplane.

[steingar]

48 minutes ago, AaronC said:

Hey everyone. 

New Mooney owner here, and just have a few questions. I've searched the forum for all of these, and either haven't found an answer, or it didn't quite answer it fully. I will be doing my CFI checkride in the airplane next month, and since I've been practicing in an Arrow for a while, I'm trying to get the differences worked out. Some of these are knit-picky, but just trying to find questions the examiner may ask so I'm prepared with a good answer.

We have a 62 M20C with every speed mod put in they could have (we bought it like that).

Lucky you.  It'll be a fast economical aircraft.

Quote

1. When I put the gear down, the gear down light comes on. It's controlled by the Johnson bar being put in the up position and closing the switch. Is there another way to verify the gear is down from in the cockpit? Is there even a way you can have the johnson bar up, and the gear not actually be locked?

What exactly are you looking for?  The J-bar is a direct mechanical linkage.  You can tug on it to make certain its in solid.  What else do you feel you need?

Quote

2. The previous owners replaced the generator with an alternator. I'm getting 14 volts while the engine is running from my volt meter, so I'm guessing It's a 14 volt system. Any idea how I can find out the amperage?  

3. Cant seem to find the glide range for the C model, but even if I did, I'm sure mine would be different since it's all modded up. Since the glide would be different with every wind scenario, what do you guys use for a base?

Glide ratio is right in  your POH.  Easy to find, since the POH is just a tiny little thing.  Don't worry about the mods, there's no way to account for them anyway.

Quote

4. Anyone know if we have a KOEL (kinds of operations equipment list)? I have the Owners manual, and the AFM from Mooney, but haven't seen one.

I've never seen one for my aircraft.  Heck, there's all sorts of things I've never sen for my aircraft.

Quote

5. Speaking of it being all modded up, do you think the examiner would expect some of the numbers to be different, and me not use the POH numbers for all of the Vspeeds. Vg would be different, and maybe even Vx and Vy. I may be over thinking this, I just want to be prepared. 

How would an examiner know if you didn't tell him or her?

 

[Yetti]

#2  Probably 60 or 70 amps.  I think my F from the factory is 70 amps

#3 

#4 My 75 F has a VFR equipment list listed

#5 You have to use the POH unless the POH was modified which it mostly likely was not.   The Examiner will use the PoH.   Don't start an unnecessary rabbit hole.

[pinerunner]

I give a downward tug on the Johnson bar after I put the gear down t make sure it's really locked in place. I also feel the button with my thumb to be sure it's clicked into the lock position. There have been some cases mentioned out there on the net where the gear seemed to be down but wasn't really locked and folded up right after touching down.

One response that I recall was that wear and tear on the J-bar could create a false ridge that handle could hang up on when lowering the gear, making it harder to lock it in and not as secure. I also recall a case where the spring-loaded handle came off when lifting the gear and shot into the rear seat area. The right seat passenger found it and they were able to put it back together well enough to land (my memory only). Bottom line: Johnson bars are simple and reliable BUT keep an eye on wear and tear issues where the handle and the two spots it seats into are concerned. If you don't let them sneak up on you and bite you you should be good to go. In the air you have a great opportunity to check this by slowing down, unlatching, and looking and feeling all these wear spots. Mention it to your mechanic at annual time. 

Edited December 18, 2017 by pinerunner

[MyNameIsNobody]

Just to be clear:  Pull down on the collar (without pressing the detention switch) when down and locked to confirm...Down and Locked.  I used to tug toward me.  THAT is No good.  Tug DOWN on J-Bar Collar.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Glide Ratio 10.3:1 for my M20E

[jaylw314]

10:1 is a good ballpark for all Mooney's (or 2 statue miles for every 1000')

[Oldguy]

2 hours ago, AaronC said:

 

1. When I put the gear down, the gear down light comes on. It's controlled by the Johnson bar being put in the up position and closing the switch. Is there another way to verify the gear is down from in the cockpit? Is there even a way you can have the johnson bar up, and the gear not actually be locked?

The only mention I recall of having it up with the wheels not down and locked was when a weld at the bottom of the bar broke. This is an area inspected at every annual, and with what sounds like a good maintenance program your new ride has enjoyed, it should not be a problem. Don Maxwell has a great article on the J-bar on his website. You can find it here:

http://www.donmaxwell.com/publications/MAPA_TEXT/Manual Gear Operation/LANDING_GEAR)OPERATION.HTM

Welcome aboard!

[Hank]

Welcome! Hope you get as much enjoyment and use from your C as we do with ours!

Look in the Downloads section, there are a couple of more modern C model Owners Manuals for your information and perusal. I wouldn't show them to the DPE, though, since they weren't written for your 62 model. They do have Equipment Lists, Glide Charts, etc.

Have fun!

[cctsurf]

4 hours ago, AaronC said:

1. When I put the gear down, the gear down light comes on. It's controlled by the Johnson bar being put in the up position and closing the switch. Is there another way to verify the gear is down from in the cockpit? Is there even a way you can have the johnson bar up, and the gear not actually be locked?

The lock is in the Johnson bar. The green light is the best way to verify that it is locked. The bar may even be in its holder and not be fully locked up. When the light lights up, it tells you that the gear is locked. I do not like to tug on the handle, but pushing it down without actuating the unlock could give you a physical indication that it is locked down. As has been noted, there have been a couple of incidents where the welds released from the mechanism, however, I would think that not feeling the springs and change in loading when extending the gear would indicate that something is awry.

4 hours ago, AaronC said:

2. The previous owners replaced the generator with an alternator. I'm getting 14 volts while the engine is running from my volt meter, so I'm guessing It's a 14 volt system. Any idea how I can find out the amperage? 

The easiest way of checking is to look at the system breaker. My alternator upgrade will produce 70 amps, however, because the wiring and breaker were not upgraded at the same time, I am limited to 50 amps IIRC. If you want to dig deeper, you can see what alternator conversion you have and then you should be able to look up the power available. However, the Circuit Breaker is really the final answer here.

4 hours ago, AaronC said:

3. Cant seem to find the glide range for the C model, but even if I did, I'm sure mine would be different since it's all modded up. Since the glide would be different with every wind scenario, what do you guys use for a base?

Some have quoted approximately 10:1, I believe this is gear down.  As you said, each plane is different with whatever mods have been installed. My memory is that with gear up, you can glide 13:1.  I would plan to glide gear up until I knew that I had whatever field I was aiming for within range, then drop the gear. I have not done this, however, I would be interested to do a test for my plane. I recently did a power-off 180 just to know the altitude loss for my plane.

I think there are two ways of thinking about giving the examiner information.  Extra knowledge is not going to hurt you.  Especially systems knowledge.  OTOH, you can also overload yourself and your examiner.  If your plane is modded, have there been changes to the POH or equivalent to change those numbers?  If so, then you should know those numbers, if not, then use the original numbers.  Your plane may perform better than specified...  I'd rather have some margin of error on my numbers than run to the edge and fall off  (as it were).

[tangogawd]

I am a CFII and do instruction in, and send to checkride with my E, it too has about every speed mod you can glue to it.   

The gear handle IS the mechanical indicator for where the gear is, just like that little red indicator in the elec. gear systems. I teach and have my students say 3 gear calls (downwind, base, final). I have them say "Green light, Handle up and locked, Gear is down", seems like a bit much to some, but it hasn't failed me yet. 

Your alternator will have a data tag on it that will say what its amp rating will be, easier yet, there is likely paperwork somewhere in the logs that will have info on that.

As far as V speeds and the such, stick to the POH (or associated supplements) numbers, those are the published numbers and that is what the examiner will expect you to teach and fly. 

Coming from the flying piano (Arrow) you will love the Mooney for power-off 180s, it will still fly with the power out, and the hydraulic flaps give incremental and instant feedback for speed control. I was always worried with the arrow if we would even make it to the runway, and with the mooney I wonder if the student can get it down before they run out of runway. 

Good luck, don't over think it, and have fun!

[Bob_Belville]

The airframe log book should include documentation for the alternator. E.g., I already had an alternator but when I replaced it this was the log entry:

"Removed Jasco alternator, mounting brackets and voltage regulator, installed Plane Power, Ltd alternator (70 amp) and voltage regulator in accordance with STC SA10682SC and master drawing list no. 14-5001 rev B dated 11-19-09. Weight and balance updated. Equipment list updated. AFMS placed in aircraft POH. Instructions for continued airworthiness placed in aircraft permanent records. Form 337 completed this date."

BTW, if you do not have digital ammeter and a digital voltmeter in your panel that would be a relatively inexpensive and useful add. Your VR should be adjusted so that the voltage matches the spec for the alternator. In the case of my Plane Power that's 13.9 V. Lower than spec'd voltage will affect starting performance. 

 

[Guitarmaster]

I . I also recall a case where the spring-loaded handle came off when lifting the gear and shot into the rear seat area. The right seat passenger found it and they were able to put it back together well enough to land (my memory only).

That would be quite the surprise!

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

[AaronC]

Great information everyone. Thanks so much.

And yes, I definitely wouldn't be volunteering information to my examiner, I just want to make sure I'm prepared if the questions comes up. Add to that, that I want to know my airplane like the back of my hand.

Thanks again. So pumped to have the C, and looking forward to many years!

[Albatros]

Good luck with exam and take care of your partner.

[Shiny moose]

Aaron, 

My 2ct. Know the numbers for YOUR airplane and if ASKED, be able to show where you got them. Get YOUR information from  your POH ,maintence manual, log books, or sups that have been added and included, do not use information that you heard online unless you can prove it in your particular airplane information. 

[mike_elliott]

Aaron, is your CFI ride with the FAA or with a DE? The ride itself is fairly easy, but your oral might last 6-8 hrs. You have to teach the maneuvers from the right seat, demonstrate stalls etc. (I had to do the dreaded cross controlled stall and recovery prior to entering a spin in my Mooney during my initial CFI checkride, but lets dont beat this horse up again. 

Maybe you will be able to teach Sasha how to fly that thing now

 

[luv737s]

My last student did his Commercial in my 62 C and the only comment from the DPE was raising the gear a bit to early.  Student than held the nose high to gain altitude and keep the speed down to 90MPH..DPE didn't like that either.  Student than challenged the DPE to try with nose low, runway no longer available and 100MPH..guess what..DPE couldn't raise the gear.  DPE  (never flew a Johnson Bar Before) told my student to keep doing it the way that works!!!    Also, if you only have brakes on one side (like mine) make sure DPE is comfortable with that. 

BTW I used about 100 mph glide gear up and 110 gear down.  There is also a link on the site to a POH that includes 62 models.

You are also not required to raise the gear after every takeoff, you only need to demonstrate it once on the check ride!! 

 

 

[Mooneymite]

58 minutes ago, luv737s said:

.....You are also not required to raise the gear after every takeoff, you only need to demonstrate it once on the check ride!! 

I'll try that technique on my next Sim PC.  I'll let you know how that goes for the engine failure after Vr.

  

[whiskytango]

+1 on giving the Johnson bar a tug.  My practice, when I owned a C model and an E model, was to do the tug on downwind, right after putting the gear down, and again on final.  On one occasion I discovered (on final) that the bar was not locked.  Problem avoided.

[AaronC]

The exam is with a DE. Yes, I plan to stick to the POH numbers. I will be ready for the oral part, just need a little more time to feel 100% confident in the new plane for the CFI checkride. I don't like leaving things to chance.