High FBO fees.

[Tom]

4 hours ago, jlunseth said:

Tom, you are saying what I am saying.  What do you think regulation does?  It sets barriers to competition.  This isn't just an aviation problem.  

-"They [FBOs] get "fee'd" and regulated up the wazoo by the local airport commission."
-"coercion of the FBOs"
-"inflicting excessive charges on the FBOs knowing the FBOs will pass those charges on to users"

With fairly rare exception, the three points mentioned are myths that need to be dispelled.  Most municipalities operate on some type of "percent of gross profits" capture for revenue from all operators on the field...not on special fees/charges/etc to specific FBOs.   The "they don't want GA" idea is a non-productive self-imposed victim stance that needs to be dispensed with.  The opposite is true...most municipalities do want what GA brings (i.e. increased local economy on and around the airport) and this is our strength.

I've been to two "airport commissions," FAA, and AOPA in trying to open a FBO.  The airport managers would like to help...but they have to apply the standards--they are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

A brief take of status quo cluster:
-Airport "Minimum Standards" are individual airport business rules developed by local municipalities with oversight from FAA
-FAA via mandate requires municipalities to provide a business environment on the airport that allows for competition, etc
-In the olden days, the Minimum Standard might have been "Office, a hangar, insurance," but this has morphed over time
-Modern Minimum Standards read like the blueprint and business plan of a Landmark Aviation operation (hangars, services, and all)
-FAA watched the Minimum Standards morph over time, basically acknowledging that the newer standards were bad for business, but did nothing
-New MegaFBOs were built complying with the expensive standards  (that they maybe helped develop???)
-MegaFBO prices are getting out of control

Where things will go:

-If FAA goes to the municipalities and requires them to change the Minimum Standards in a manner that will promote competition, consistent with the funding mandate, this will allow new guys (like me) to come in and open little FBO services, but we'll steal revenue from the resident MegaFBO.  Then MegaFBO will have a legitimate case against the municipality for changes in the business requirements, lost revenue, etc.  The city, in turn, can cry foul to FAA for not having said or done anything earlier, asking for relief.

For the time being FAA isn't motivated to take action against unreasonable minimum standards unless someone trying to open a business at one of these airports literally wants to make a federal case about it.  For now, this isn't me.

Whether the Feds take antitrust action against Landmark and friends for "supply side price fixation" I don't know.
 

4 hours ago, jlunseth said:

This isn't just an aviation problem.  

Certainly agree.

 

 

Edited April 1, 2017 by Tom

[peevee]

We have too many regulations so we need more regulations?

[N201MKTurbo]

Airports that want small GA will write their regulations to be friendly to small GA. Those that don't will write them that way. I can take a hint.

I needed to go to Manhatten once and looked into KLGA and KTEB. 

I got the hint and landed at KHPN. It worked out great.

Edited April 1, 2017 by N201MKTurbo

[NotarPilot]

18 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-delta-jetfuel-exclusive-idUSKCN10E0EZ

It looks like they pay closer to $1.00/gal

After reading this article I'm inspired to start a consortium of Mooney pilots that get together and pool funds together in order to buy a refinery so we could purchase our own fuel at less than $2 a gallon. Who's with me? Viva Che!

[Wayne Cease]

We're heading to Charleston next weekend. CHS has Signature and Atlantic. Didn't even bother checking Signature. Atlantic wanted a $60 handling fee, $30/night, and there's a $10 security fee; it's on the opposite side of the airport from the passenger terminal.

So, we're going to LRO, Mt Pleasant. $10/night parking, cheaper rental car rates and cheaper fuel. It's about 8 min longer drive to out hotel. Yeah, I think I can handle that to save $300.

[toto]

For what it's worth, I always read AirNav FBO comments before making a decision about where to park overnight. If an FBO has a tendency to charge hidden fees, this is usually obvious from the comments. And when something like an ownership change has produced significantly different prices or quality of service, people often write about it.

I really like hearing a first-hand account before I leave my a/c with a new FBO. And I also like to mention to the FBO that I read the online reviews, which implies the possibility of positive (or negative) feedback depending on my experience.

[tigers2007]

2 hours ago, NotarPilot said:

After reading this article I'm inspired to start a consortium of Mooney pilots that get together and pool funds together in order to buy a refinery so we could purchase our own fuel at less than $2 a gallon. Who's with me? Viva Che!

DAL's 2012 purchase of the refinery appeared to be a great concept but they also bought 4.1B gallons of fuel in hedge contracts back in 2013. They certainly didn't expect the price of crude to collapse like it did ($108 to 122 per barrel between 2011-2014 and $20's last year). The Reuters article you noted does hint that the Monroe refinery isn't doing that great but DAL saved $100M in Jet-A expenses. They seemed to hit the nail on the head by focusing on reducing the fuel expense (>30% of their total operating expenses in 2012).  

I say we just start buying FBO's and charge double prices for non-Mooney owners. That will drive up the value of our Mooney's and thus legitimize some of our trivial speed and/or avionic upgrades.

[FloridaMan]

On 3/31/2017 at 1:33 PM, peevee said:

Sure it is. You're free to go elsewhere.

Airports granting exclusive FBO access are in violation of the Civil Aviation Act of 1938 as well. https://www.faa.gov/airports/resources/publications/orders/compliance_5190_6/media/5190_6b_chap8.pdf

[Drew_Wagner]

We're heading to Charleston next weekend. CHS has Signature and Atlantic. Didn't even bother checking Signature. Atlantic wanted a $60 handling fee, $30/night, and there's a $10 security fee; it's on the opposite side of the airport from the passenger terminal.

So, we're going to LRO, Mt Pleasant. $10/night parking, cheaper rental car rates and cheaper fuel. It's about 8 min longer drive to out hotel. Yeah, I think I can handle that to save $300.

Be sure to call ahead going to LRO (my home field). Major ramp construction going on right now and you must call ahead to land.


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[FloridaMan]

Uber is a godsend in these situations as well. It's often cheaper to get around using Uber at your destination than it is to rent a car. 

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Antares said:

Uber is a godsend in these situations as well. It's often cheaper to get around using Uber at your destination than it is to rent a car. 

Uber is awesome.  Sometimes I'll call Uber after I shut down but before I get out of the airplane, and then its there as I am finished tying down.  Even at remote fields without services.

Edited April 2, 2017 by aviatoreb

[air cooled dad]

On 3/31/2017 at 3:43 PM, N201MKTurbo said:

I don't think Delta wants those little airplanes clogging up their taxiways and runways.

A couple guys I know flew their planes to the ATL.  Old biplane and something else that was more fun than an airliner.  Never went to Signature.  Taxied straight to an event at the TOC, mx facility.  They got a huge bill from the Atlanta airport.  Luckily our CEO intervened and told ATL to pound sand. We already pay enough in landing fees!!!  Back to the thread.....I avoid Signature like the plague. Just like I will never pay $5.00 for a bottle of water in my hotel room.  I need this money for Mooney upgrades!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Jason

 

[air cooled dad]

The Delta refinery purchase was all about lowering the crack spread.  It worked. The extra product that is refined is traded for lower fuel prices across the country.  Other airlines obviously benefit but the big wigs at the Big D are still pretty happy with the refinery purchase.  

[N201MKTurbo]

12 minutes ago, air cooled dad said:

The Delta refinery purchase was all about lowering the crack spread.  It worked. The extra product that is refined is traded for lower fuel prices across the country.  Other airlines obviously benefit but the big wigs at the Big D are still pretty happy with the refinery purchase.  

Most refinerys shoot for alkylate and take diesel and jet as they can get it. If you tune For jet I understand you can get a lot more.

[Wayne Cease]

14 hours ago, Drew_Wagner said:

Be sure to call ahead going to LRO (my home field). Major ramp construction going on right now and you must call ahead to land.


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Hmmm, I did call last week and they didn't mention that.  I'll call back again.

update: called.  Well crud.  I wish that they had said something last week when I called.

Thanks for letting me know.  I don't usually check NOTAMs until a day before.  It's there; I just checked.  Of course the guy on the phone there could have said something about it.

sigh

Edited April 2, 2017 by Wayne Cease

[Wayne Cease]

Atlantic has a $60 "facility" fee at JZI?  WTF?  And $30/night.  I'm currently flying a Baron.  Man I have to get back into a single.

Really bummed LRO is repaving right now.  I'm sure it will be nice once done.  Just bad timing for me.  Ugh.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

11 hours ago, air cooled dad said:

The Delta refinery purchase was all about lowering the crack spread.  It worked. The extra product that is refined is traded for lower fuel prices across the country.  Other airlines obviously benefit but the big wigs at the Big D are still pretty happy with the refinery purchase.  

https://www.eia.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/feature_articles/2010/distillateprod/distillateprod.pdf?src=email

how to make more jet fuel.

[Drew_Wagner]

Hmmm, I did call last week and they didn't mention that.  I'll call back again.

update: called.  Well crud.  I wish that they had said something last week when I called.

Thanks for letting me know.  I don't usually check NOTAMs until a day before.  It's there; I just checked.  Of course the guy on the phone there could have said something about it.

sigh

I just talked to the line guys when I flew home this morning and they said you can still come to LRO next weekend. You just have to schedule with them to make sure there is ramp space. This weekend was crazy with the Bridge Run and they filled up which is why they may have mistakenly told you there wasn't room. Hope you enjoy your trip. If you end up landing on 17 you have to back taxi if you don't make the middle turn because the taxi way is closed going to 35.

 

 

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[co2bruce]

Whenever you allow government to intervene with the free market this is what you get.......every time. I hate to start this conversation but if there is only one FBO allowed at the field then prices (hangers, fuel, etc) will be higher. In a free market seeing this ridiculous high profit margin others will open and bring the prices back into line. Supply and demand will still make hangers in south Florida more expensive (2-3 times more) than many other places but competition will keep the local market fair.  At my home field there was only one maintenance shop for quite a while and they charged top dollar. Sure you could go elsewhere but when free markets are allowed to exist you won't have to. Recently 2 or 3 new shops opened and everyones prices fell into line. 

[LevelWing]

We used to have have two large FBO's here and now we only have one because I believe one bought out the other at this location. The result is higher fees, especially higher fuel costs. They have no incentive to lower prices either because there's no competition.

[Bob - S50]

12 minutes ago, LevelWing said:

We used to have have two large FBO's here and now we only have one because I believe one bought out the other at this location. The result is higher fees, especially higher fuel costs. They have no incentive to lower prices either because there's no competition.

I don't know where you live, but don't buy fuel from them.  Nothing says you have to park the plane with a full tank.  We park our 64 gallon tank with 30 - 35 gallons on purpose.  I can almost always tanker enough fuel to get home with that much still left on board.  I always take that into consideration when I decide where to buy fuel.  I also consider how much extra gas I have to buy if I stop on the way home for fuel.

This week I'm flying an Angel Flight  from S50 (Auburn, WA) to KBLI (Bellingham, WA) then back to KBFI (Boeing Field), then home to S50.  Fuel at home is $5.01.  I have enough gas to fly the entire route with my starting 30 gallons.  My plan is to fly from KBFI to KRNT (Renton) on the way home.  It is a 5 mile flight and not out of the way to do that.  With the Angel Flight/Phillips 66 gas discount, I'll buy gas at a net $3.85.  I'll burn less than 1 gallon extra to do that.

[LevelWing]

Just now, Bob - S50 said:

I don't know where you live, but don't buy fuel from them.  Nothing says you have to park the plane with a full tank.  We park our 64 gallon tank with 30 - 35 gallons on purpose.  I can almost always tanker enough fuel to get home with that much still left on board.  I always take that into consideration when I decide where to buy fuel.  I also consider how much extra gas I have to buy if I stop on the way home for fuel.

This week I'm flying an Angel Flight  from S50 (Auburn, WA) to KBLI (Bellingham, WA) then back to KBFI (Boeing Field), then home to S50.  Fuel at home is $5.01.  I have enough gas to fly the entire route with my starting 30 gallons.  My plan is to fly from KBFI to KRNT (Renton) on the way home.  It is a 5 mile flight and not out of the way to do that.  With the Angel Flight/Phillips 66 gas discount, I'll buy gas at a net $3.85.  I'll burn less than 1 gallon extra to do that.

I'm in west Texas and the fuel here is $6.05/gal full serve and $4.99/self serve. The self serve price isn't the worst I've seen but it's also $0.50 cents cheaper right down the road in one direction and $4.95/gal for full serve in the other direction. I fully intend to not fill up here unless I absolutely need to.

[bonal]

So my question about signature FBO are they still privately owned like a franchise because our favorite FBO is Sonoma jet center and they are a Signature company. They do a majority of jet service but always treat us extremely well. The fuel is 5.25 full service but they have a self serve for a dollar less per gallon. I always get full service because they treat us so well.

[carusoam]

https://www.signatureflight.com/about/bba-aviation

signature is part of a public company.  The Parent is BBA-aviation.

http://www.bbaaviation.com/

Their share price is the first piece of data on their website.  One of the discussion points is about adding value.  Very much a public corporation.

Best regards,

-a–

Edited April 3, 2017 by carusoam

[Rmag]

3 hours ago, bonal said:

So my question about signature FBO are they still privately owned like a franchise because our favorite FBO is Sonoma jet center and they are a Signature company. They do a majority of jet service but always treat us extremely well. The fuel is 5.25 full service but they have a self serve for a dollar less per gallon. I always get full service because they treat us so well.

Sonoma is not owned by Signature, they are a Signature Select FBO.  So they are an independent FBO that sets their own prices and rules, but they can take part in some of Signature's network programs.  https://www.signatureflight.com/programs/signature-select