Mid-Air at non-towered airport

[cliffy]

The news media will never change. They have been the same for 200 years. I've watched it in aviation for 50+ years.

 It's all about readership and sales. Sensationalism sells newspapers (or what ever media).. No matter the prognostications about "reporting the news", editors always want the storyline "punched up" to grab attention. It will never change. Who can ask the most salacious question, who can use the Thesaurus the best. Just look to local "news" programs and the choice of their verbiage and tonal inflections every evening. 

You're beating a dead horse if you think it will ever change.

[freff]

11 hours ago, tony said:

I fly in and out of this airport all the time.  Falcon must have a big contract with the Chinese govt.  Falcon likes to send their students over to practice but their students cant speak English.  They get on the radio and you don't have a clue what they are saying.   If you can understand them through their broken English, their position reports are usually wrong.  

I am based at CCO where the flight school involved in this accident is based.    I agree that this issue of soft spoken foreign student pilots is a real problem.   The Falcon students too often speak softly, quickly, and with strong asian accents. 

I almost had my own incident caused by not being able to understand the student pilots.   Fortunately just before I turned to join the downwind an instructor who was apparently DUAL with one of the students broadcast a position report and clarified their position  That position report that I understood just before joining the pattern caused to me to turn away from the airport and avoid a close call.   Prior to the instructor speaking, I had no idea where the multiple students in the pattern were located even though they were making unintelligible position reports.  I was listening to and interacting on the CTAF at least 10-15 miles from the airport.  At least half of the radio transmissions from Falcon students are unintelligible to my ear.   

 

Edited September 9, 2016 by freff

[Wildhorsesracing]

I was practicing in the pattern this morning in my Biplane with an Aeronca Champ, we both had handheld radios and reported position, etc.  A Cirrus 22T decided to fly straight in and avoid the pattern altogether.  I was on crosswind, but the Champ has to extend his downwind to avoid the Cirrus. 

I asked the Champ pilot later if he could hear me, 'cause I could hear him clearly.  He said that he could hear and understand me, even above the wind noise.

It was a non-event, but it was pretty obvious that the high tech plane was busy in the cockpit and not looking out the window.

My instructor years ago beat into my head that "airports attract planes like flies to dog poop" and that anytime you get near an airport you need to be always looking out the window.

[Bravoman]

10 hours ago, freff said:

I am based at CCO where the flight school involved in this accident is based.    I agree that this issue of soft spoken foreign student pilots is a real problem.   The Falcon students too often speak softly, quickly, and with strong asian accents. 

I almost had my own incident caused by not being able to understand the student pilots.   Fortunately just before I turned to join the downwind an instructor who was apparently DUAL with one of the students broadcast a position report and clarified their position  That position report that I understood just before joining the pattern caused to me to turn away from the airport and avoid a close call.   Prior to the instructor speaking, I had no idea where the multiple students in the pattern were located even though they were making unintelligible position reports.  I was listening to and interacting on the CTAF at least 10-15 miles from the airport.  At least half of the radio transmissions from Falcon students are unintelligible to my ear.   

 

I  often fly into the fields frequented by this flight school, such as falcon field, Lagrange and where this happened, Carrollton. I agree with you. I have been told that this flight school has some type of arrangement with the Chinese air line to train pilots. Obviously too early to tell what the cause of this was.

[Brandontwalker]

I fly in and out of this airport all the time.  Falcon must have a big contract with the Chinese govt.  Falcon likes to send their students over to practice but their students cant speak English.  They get on the radio and you don't have a clue what they are saying.   If you can understand them through their broken English, their position reports are usually wrong.  

My home field is on 122.7 (Same as Newnan) and we have to hear the foreign students on the radio all the time. You can't understand 80% of what they say and they are horrible about stepping on other pilots. Glad they are 100 miles away because the communication gap has given me pause in the past regarding safety.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[flyboy0681]

On September 8, 2016 at 9:26 AM, Piloto said:

Not rare. It happens because the pilots do not report their position or use the wrong frequency. 

Or they just don't give a crap. A few weeks ago I was flying into an airport with Fantom to attend our monthly Mooney Florida luncheon at an uncontrolled airport. We were # 2 of 3 on final when some guy cut his downwind short just beyond the numbers, cutting right in front of us, forcing me to cutoff to the left and entering downwind again. 

Gary was ready to give him a knuckle sandwich but we didn't hear his numbers and he could have been one of a half dozen Mooney's parked on the ramp once we did get in. 

Be careful out there and keep your eyes peeled. 

[Tony Armour]

From another forum:

Directly from witnesses.
The Bonanza radio was not tuned to Carrollton CTAF but to Newnan. He was on final.
The student and instructor turned base to final into and below the bonanza.
The are giving the instructor credit for not looking.
But evidently neither was looking.

[Tony Armour]

Several folks I know have said that you can't understand a dang thing the Chinese students say. 

Doesnt really matter if you are on the wrong frequency.

[Bravoman]

6 hours ago, Tony Armour said:

Several folks I know have said that you can't understand a dang thing the Chinese students say. 

Doesnt really matter if you are on the wrong frequency.

When I came down south 37 years ago I had no idea what folks were saying. Now I'm totally fluent!

[Hank]

6 hours ago, Bravoman said:

When I came down south 37 years ago I had no idea what folks were saying. Now I'm totally fluent!

It's easier moving South, you just have to listen slower. When I went north, I had a hard time understanding everyone, they talk so durn fast! To say nothing of the funny accent . . .

[flyboy0681]

Just now, Hank said:

It's easier moving South, you just have to listen slower. When I went north, I had a hard time understanding everyone, they talk so durn fast! To say nothing of the funny accent . . .

When I flew in New Jersey it was called Teterboro Rapid Fire.

[Oscar Avalle]

This is a complicated issue and there are many small parts of a chain that may lead to an accident.

The other night I was returning to my home-field Gaithersburg KGAI. It was getting dark and I was on an IFR flight plan. In front of me (that was what I thought) was a 172 VFR returning to KGAI too. I could hear her because she was on a SFAR flight plan. She indicated that she was 7 miles from the field on a 45 for left downwind for runway 14.I was 10 miles out.  I looked at my TCAS and I could not see her. I thought strange...but it was clear... I cancelled IFR switched over to advisory and announced that I was on a 6 miles 45 for runway 14. I looked for the traffic and could not see the 172. I asked for a reference and the 172 announced that she was on a 3 mile 45 for 14. Now I was really getting nervous... where is she... my TCAS did not show her the range was at 6 miles!... I was high so I had to start descending... Not comfortable. I self announced myself and nothing... I looked around nothing. I asked about the traffic... nothing...

Well I trusted my TCAS and hoped that she was not below me. I rocked my wings... looked around..nothing!. I flew my downwind, base and final and landed. When I was turning final my TCAS starts identifying her and I finally see the landing lights of the 172 joining the downwind.

She had miscalculated the distances... 

Lesson learned don't trust what others announce on advisory. They may be wrong... make sure that you know your surroundings announce your distances (may be even altitude) and make sure you know what is going on around you. 

[rbuck]

5 hours ago, Hank said:

It's easier moving South, you just have to listen slower. When I went north, I had a hard time understanding everyone, they talk so durn fast! To say nothing of the funny accent . . .

It took me forever to get used to the Southern accents. By the time I got it down, I was back in the North!

[gsxrpilot]

Personally I think it's great that the Chinese are over here doing their training.  It provides needed work for our CFI's and makes it easier for our kids to build hours and realize their dream of an ATP job at some point. Second it brings $$ back and get's them spending dollars in this country.  Third, as someone who travels the world full time for work, I'm comforted to know when I'm on a Chinese carrier, the pilot was most likely trained in the US. Finally, it's pretty impressive that they speak as much English as they do.  I can't imagine trying to learn anything, much less how to fly, while speaking Mandarin.

Let's all be vigilant out there... "see and avoid!"

[Skates97]

On 9/13/2016 at 10:27 AM, Hank said:

It's easier moving South, you just have to listen slower. When I went north, I had a hard time understanding everyone, they talk so durn fast! To say nothing of the funny accent . . .

Off topic, but after I spent two years living in Alabama I went home and asked my parents if I had picked up any accent. My mom said "No, you just talk a lot slower than you used to..."

[tony]

back on topic

Preliminary report:

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20160907X21532&key=1

 

[peevee]

I feel like it needs to be reiterated, even at a class d towered field separation services are not being provided in the airspace. A VFR tower is ONLY responsible for that strip of concrete/asphalt. Everything else is an additional service and not guaranteed.

[MyNameIsNobody]

It is funny strange how often random events align.  I will be out walking the dogs on an empty road for several minutes and right when I am going to cross...traffic.  Can't count the number of times monitoring control frequency at non-towered airports as I approach and the frequency is quiet...Until I announce Ten southwest descending to pattern from ________in bound landing runway/airport.  Boom there is another guy coming back.  Always looking for other traffic....Re-assessing as "If quiet" I often call out 5 mile final runway/airport.  There is a grass strip (east west) crossing the N/S runway.  Some of those guys might be Nordo...

Probably need to join the pattern and quit doing the straight in thing...

Wonder why Beech pilot was not announcing?  Wrong Freq?  A couple diamonds, maybe thought he only had one and had visual on that one?  Sad.

Edited September 15, 2016 by MyNameIsNobody

[cliffy]

Happens all the time here (KPGA) We have a designated calm wind runway (31, in the AFD) but many use 15, NORDOs and all. 

Biggest issue is calling 5 mile final when 10 out  You don't think they are trying for priority do you? 

They use left traffic when it's a right pattern, no pattern or a modified straight in (meaning from any angle to the runway).

They use the cross runway when it is designated "high wind from the west" only (1700')

Many use a Boeing size pattern (downwind miles away from the airport going to a 5 mile final, in a 172!). Takes all day waiting for them.

We can get 200 operations on a busy weekend day with no tower.

As they used to say on "Hill Street Blues", "ya'll be careful out there!". 

[DaV8or]

On September 15, 2016 at 5:32 AM, peevee said:

I feel like it needs to be reiterated, even at a class d towered field separation services are not being provided in the airspace. A VFR tower is ONLY responsible for that strip of concrete/asphalt. Everything else is an additional service and not guaranteed.

Yep. And you know why that is? It is because they don't have radar and they only have their eyes to identify where traffic is. The FAA knows spotting little white airplanes in flight is damn hard sometimes, even with binoculars and so they let the controllers off the hook for responsibility.

If anybody thinks that super "see and avoid" skills is going to save them, they are sadly mistaken. This accident illustrates it. The Bonanza on his extended downwind, combined with his overtaking speed and the fact that there were several similar airplanes in the pattern, made it so that the ill fated Diamond was ahead and below all through downwind, base and final. The Bonanza is blind down and in front just like a Mooney. Of course the Diamond is blind to the rear and above, just like a Mooney.

There are rumors going around that the Bonanza had his radio tuned to the wrong frequency, but until the NTSB releases this, I consider it just a rumor. It does raise two questions though. Wouldn't the Bonanza pilot think something might be wrong with the radio if he were to see at least two out of the three training planes in the pattern and hear nothing? Pilot training nearly always announces on every leg and entry. The pilots that witnessed the collision from the air, couldn't they have broadcast to the other planes about the imminent collision? The Bonanza may never have heard it, but the Diamond would have and they might have been able to break off the approach.

Pointless musings at his point of course. I was involved with discussing this crash on another forum and after seven pages, the consensus by the majority was that flying can be dangerous, there really is nothing to be done about these kinds of crashes as things are as good as can be, when your number is up, it's up and if you really don't want to die in plane crash, don't get into a plane. It was a good reminder to me that after a time of reading these things, how pointless these "never again" crash threads become. Most crashes are the same ol', same ol' stupid pilot tricks and a few of them like this one, are just "Oh well, stuff happens beyond your control and you die." 

Every now and then I stupidly get sucked into them against my better judgement.

[gsengle]

What can be done is ADSB and traffic displays in cockpits. Not perfect but I bet it could prevent a lot of mid airs. Don't tell me about nordo/non electric aircraft, they are a very small part of the fleet.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mike_elliott]

On ‎9‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 11:56 PM, Tony Armour said:

From another forum:

Directly from witnesses.
The Bonanza radio was not tuned to Carrollton CTAF but to Newnan. He was on final.
The student and instructor turned base to final into and below the bonanza.
The are giving the instructor credit for not looking.
But evidently neither was looking.

THe instructor almost always gets "credit" for anything that goes wrong, mechanical included.

[Hank]

25 minutes ago, gsengle said:

What can be done is ADSB and traffic displays in cockpits. Not perfect but I bet it could prevent a lot of mid airs. Don't tell me about nordo/non electric aircraft, they are a very small part of the fleet.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Will your ADS-B pick up my Mode C transponder? I may not bother equipping with the magic heads-down-in-the-pattern box . . .

This event is a good reminder to be alert at non-towered fields, especially those with heavy training going on. I hope it's a wake up call for CFIs that no matter how intensively they are working with a student, no matter how many laps they do around the pattern, other planes are also using the airport and they need to keep a lookout when making non-standard turns (this trainer turned base sooner than normal, leading to a short final, while the Bo was on a normal-to-long final, and they ended up cutting under it).

Whenever others are near the field, I keep a sharp eye peeled and will orbit out of the way if I can't spot them. Radio calls don't always give the right position, distance or even runway. Just last month someone called inbound near my position, I couldn't spot them and did a 360; then they came past, they had been approaching from the opposite direction and called the wrong runway number. When I got down after them, they apologized for the confusion. But not seeing them, I stayed the hell out of their way! I have no desire to be dead right . . .

Edited September 18, 2016 by Hank

[kpaul]

How can an "eye witness" claim the radio was tuned to the wrong frequency?  Unless, they too were tuned to Newnan freq and could hear the Bonanza making calls.

Pretty good eyes if they could verify that the instructor never turned her head to look for traffic. 

Case in point where witnesses cause speculation based on perception not facts. 

[gsengle]

Yes it does. It picks it up.

Yes we have to be alert. But let's be honest, see and avoid is a bit of a myth.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk