Glide slope not coming in

[flyboy0681]

Well, the test result is in... BTW -- I have 5.0 on mine.

Proof that my database is (was) expired:

Proof that the glide slope does function with an expired database:

 

 

Like I said on an earlier post, I've done some training missions with an expired database and it worked just fine.

[Houman]

Yeah one thing that was different in my case was that the obstacle and safetaxi were expired for more than 12 months, the NAV had expired on april 30th as show in Maurauder's pictures, but the rest was expired for more than a year.

Anyway not sure why it was not working and why it is now, just don't like not knowing, my garmin dealer said that he will check a bit the connections after the software upgrade from 5.0 to 5.13.

BTW, 5.13 is supposed to get rid of the annoying trailing 0 at the end of frequencies, where with 5.0 if you are entering 126.7, you have to enter 126.70 befor enter becomes availble and obstacle is much improved according to the documentation.

[flyboy0681]

BTW, 5.13 is supposed to get rid of the annoying trailing 0 at the end of frequencies, where with 5.0 if you are entering 126.7, you have to enter 126.70 befor enter becomes availble and obstacle is much improved according to the documentation.

 

There are other good fixes in 5.13 such as altitude labels for the Class B & C airspace.

 

However, I am fairly disappointed with Garmin and how the software remains relatively unchanged since the first release. They have been very slow to introduce changes and features put forth by the GTN community. One suggestion that I had early on was some sort of audio signal, such as a brief beep, when a message displays on the lower right hand corner that a turn is coming up. I've caught myself behind the turn many times because I was focused on the instruments when it flashed for its short interval.

[Marauder]

Chris,

On the Aspen, does you GS & LOC show on the AI? I see green diamonds that look like GS and LOC on the AI and a like that looks like a CDI on the HSI but no GS on the HSI. Is this correct?

Dave

Hi Dave,

Yes, the glide slope and the localizer show up on the AI. The CDI on the HSI also shows the localizer signal. On the second HSI on the second Aspen, it will show the normally seen CDI and has the vertical on the side of the HSI.

[Marauder]

Yeah one thing that was different in my case was that the obstacle and safetaxi were expired for more than 12 months, the NAV had expired on april 30th as show in Maurauder's pictures, but the rest was expired for more than a year.

Anyway not sure why it was not working and why it is now, just don't like not knowing, my garmin dealer said that he will check a bit the connections after the software upgrade from 5.0 to 5.13.

BTW, 5.13 is supposed to get rid of the annoying trailing 0 at the end of frequencies, where with 5.0 if you are entering 126.7, you have to enter 126.70 befor enter becomes availble and obstacle is much improved according to the documentation.

The SafeTaxi and obstacle are optional databases. The navigation database information needs to be current but I think that you can verify the information as an acceptable means. Think I read that over on the PoA site.

[Marauder]

There are other good fixes in 5.13 such as altitude labels for the Class B & C airspace.

However, I am fairly disappointed with Garmin and how the software remains relatively unchanged since the first release. They have been very slow to introduce changes and features put forth by the GTN community. One suggestion that I had early on was some sort of audio signal, such as a brief beep, when a message displays on the lower right hand corner that a turn is coming up. I've caught myself behind the turn many times because I was focused on the instruments when it flashed for its short interval.

I agree the "enhancements" they put out are more like "tweaks". I do wish more audible stuff was available. I am fortunate that the Aspen does pick up the blinking message indicator on the Garmin and that the auto slew feature on the Aspen changes the course for me.

The one that does torque me was the flickering screen. Since it was not considered a safety item, I had to pay for the upgrade to fix it.

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[mike_elliott]

When you activated the approach, did in fact your gtn switch to VLOC or was it still annunciating GPS?

[Houman]

if the question is for me, VLOC and CDI was working on the HSI, but not GS on the same HSI.

[mike_elliott]

if the question is for me, VLOC and CDI was working on the HSI, but not GS on the same HSI.

Yes it was. Let me clarify my question further.. was it annunciated VLOC on the GTN? In GPS mode, you will see the LOC working fine on the HSI, no GS.  

[Houman]

Hi,

 

Continuing my IFR training and GS is now working ok, but my instructor is a bit surprised that even following the published approach altitude, the Glide Slope Is intermittent, it comes and then flag goes on, it helps a lot if I put takeoff flaps or even more to change the angle, but changes a bit my approach settings to be 4 or 5 miles out and put on flaps.

 

So what I have done in today's exercise is to start the approach as non-precision and not rely on the intermittent GS until approaching the FAF and slowing down, brining down the gear and flaps and the GS comes in and stays in no problem what to so ever.

 

So my question is how does other more IFR experiences pilots do with GS reception in a Mooney beside the Flaps. My CFI tells me this is the 1st time he has seen this, he usually gives IFR training in a Beech Twin.

 

Thanks !

[carusoam]

Inline with the earlier discussion...

Signal strength and the angle of the aircraft seem to be giving you a sign.

My old BK equipment is not that challenging to use. It will be working from miles and miles away from when I expect or need it to...

When talking to your radio shop ask about cleaning connections...?

The sooner the better. You are spending training time and money while trying to solve radio issues...

The Old BK stuff should show the ILS at the top of the gage as you approach from under the glide slope.

I'm no expert....

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

Hi,

Continuing my IFR training and GS is now working ok, but my instructor is a bit surprised that even following the published approach altitude, the Glide Slope Is intermittent, it comes and then flag goes on, it helps a lot if I put takeoff flaps or even more to change the angle, but changes a bit my approach settings to be 4 or 5 miles out and put on flaps.

So what I have done in today's exercise is to start the approach as non-precision and not rely on the intermittent GS until approaching the FAF and slowing down, brining down the gear and flaps and the GS comes in and stays in no problem what to so ever.

So my question is how does other more IFR experiences pilots do with GS reception in a Mooney beside the Flaps. My CFI tells me this is the 1st time he has seen this, he usually gives IFR training in a Beech Twin.

Thanks !

Are you flying the same ILS through all of this? If you are, I would suggest flying another one and see if this new ILS is doing the same thing. It really sounds like you have something strange going on with either this particular ILS or your GS hardware.

As for flying the approach, your K has some advantages that my F doesn't. Namely your gear speed is a lot higher than mine. And you may have speed brakes, which I don't.

Since I need to be at 104 KIAS to operate the gear and I don't have speed brakes, I slow my plane down to flap speed (109 KIAS) and fly all approaches at 100 KIAS. If I know that I may be doing a circle to land or flying to a shorter runway, I will slow to 90 KIAS. The MAPA guys have recommended power settings and configurations to fly approaches.

As for the need to fly a precision approach as non-precision -- you shouldn't need to. Even with my older NAV/COM, I would pick up the glide slope on most ILSs a few miles out. Not typically 4 or 5 out, but usually within 2 to 3, maybe a little more. The next time I fly one, I will try to note how far out I am from the GS intercept point. As well, I initially flew the approach I did above at a lot faster than 100 KIAS and slowed it down to deploy the flaps and I didn't have an issue picking up the glideslope before the flaps were extended.

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[mpg]

Well,,,

I have never heard of a Radio that wouldnt get the proper signal unless the plane was 

Tipped or pointed in just the Right WAY!!!

That GS should work even if youre flying upside down and back words,  Oh, and on FIRE!!!

 

You just gotta have a screwed up antenna!!!

[Houman]

Well,,,

I have never heard of a Radio that wouldnt get the proper signal unless the plane was 

Tipped or pointed in just the Right WAY!!!

That GS should work even if youre flying upside down and back words,  Oh, and on FIRE!!!

 

You just gotta have a screwed up antenna!!!

That is funny, GS actually works great when I'm heading out in the opposite direction of the track needed towards the runway, I guess it is the position of the antenna, it is just when following the GS from far inboud (5 miles out ), then signal is intermittent. I have tried the same runway on different directions ( i mean 6 and 24 ), so not sure if that is the same GS sender that is in use. I will try other airports in the near future and see if it is different.

Otherwise, I might have to find an STC for thrust reverses and land backwards, lol....

[Will W]

Hi,

 

Continuing my IFR training and GS is now working ok, but my instructor is a bit surprised that even following the published approach altitude, the Glide Slope Is intermittent, it comes and then flag goes on, it helps a lot if I put takeoff flaps or even more to change the angle, but changes a bit my approach settings to be 4 or 5 miles out and put on flaps.

 

So what I have done in today's exercise is to start the approach as non-precision and not rely on the intermittent GS until approaching the FAF and slowing down, brining down the gear and flaps and the GS comes in and stays in no problem what to so ever.

 

So my question is how does other more IFR experiences pilots do with GS reception in a Mooney beside the Flaps. My CFI tells me this is the 1st time he has seen this, he usually gives IFR training in a Beech Twin.

 

Thanks !

Flaps takeoff and gear down is how I teach all ILS approaches. It is very common in G36 Bonanza's and it happens in the ovation I fly. It's not an antenna issue, it's just blocked by the wing. Your aircraft is considered a long body in this case which is where this becomes prone to happening. Like I originally said, just use the flaps and gear and you'll be fine. Don't waste your money taking it to a shop. They will just suck you dry on testing that won't do anything.

Ask your instructor to point out to localizer antenna, the glideslope antenna, and your nav antenna. It will all make sense if you look at the plane from the side and see where the wing blocks the signal.

[Houman]

Flaps takeoff and gear down is how I teach all ILS approaches. It is very common in G36 Bonanza's and it happens in the ovation I fly. It's not an antenna issue, it's just blocked by the wing. Your aircraft is considered a long body in this case which is where this becomes prone to happening. Like I originally said, just use the flaps and gear and you'll be fine. Don't waste your money taking it to a shop. They will just suck you dry on testing that won't do anything.

Ask your instructor to point out to localizer antenna, the glideslope antenna, and your nav antenna. It will all make sense if you look at the plane from the side and see where the wing blocks the signal.

Thanks and I have tried your suggestions and they help, but how far away do you tell students to configure for landing. My instructor usually tells me to do that a bit before the FAF so that at FAF, I'm all configured and can call ATC and declare on final.

He also tells me that in IFR training, I'm not supposed to take any action that takes lift away, such as the speed break, because it hastens the descent rate... just wondering what are your thoughts about that one as well.

[PTK]

Houman, which autopilot do you have and when do you engage it on the approach?

[Houman]

Houman, which autopilot do you have and when do you engage it on the approach?

Hi Peter, I got a Century 41, 2 axes autopilot and as part of my IFR training, I'm doing it all by hand and feet flying, not using Autopilot at all, should I be ?

[PTK]

Hi Houman. The reason I asked is because it makes a difference whether or not the gs is captured depending on the ap you have.

I'm not familiar how yours does it but it's in your POH. I know mine (KFC150) will capture gs either from above or from below.

It may not be a bad idea to engage the autopilot to fly the approach a few times in a few different scenarios like above and below and see if and where it captures gs. Even if it's just an academic excercise.

Edit: also don't forget that with some ap's the gtn can be configured to switch the cdi from gps to vloc automatically when the final approach course is intercepted. Mine does so. Some others require you to manually switch to vloc. Again not sure what yours does. This is a question for your installer and/or Garmin.

[Houman]

Hi Houman. The reason I asked is because it makes a difference whether or not the gs is captured depending on the ap you have.

I'm not familiar how yours does it but it's in your POH. I know mine (KFC150) will capture gs either from above or from below.

It may not be a bad idea to engage the autopilot to fly the approach a few times in a few different scenarios like above and below and see if and where it captures gs. Even if it's just an academic excercise.

Edit: also don't forget that with some ap's the gtn can be configured to switch the cdi from gps to vloc automatically when the final approach course is intercepted. Mine does so. Some others require you to manually switch to vloc. Again not sure what yours does. This is a question for your installer and/or Garmin.

Ok, I do have the autopilot and the HSI manuel, I will take a look, and see.

From my understandinf of what you are saying, if it is capturing GS from Abouve, I should fly higher than published, but if capturing from below, I should fly at the minimum published ???

Just wondering since I don't have yet a proficient knowledge of all IFR stuff and my CFI dos'nt know my plane or AP, GS well. Maybe the MAPA guys this weekend can help !!!

[Hank]

Houman--

 

I've always been told to capture from below, as there can be false glideslopes above the real one. Ask your CFII or a radio person to explain how these occur.

 

For configuration, I always have Takeoff Flaps out and am on speed prior to capture, preferably by the procedure turn if making one. When the glideslope starts coming in and is about 1½ dots high, I drop the gear and that will generally center the needle in descent without making any power changes. See if this works for you, I had to experiment to find the 1½ dots, all of my books said drop gear when the glideslope needle centers, but that always left me way high.

 

P.S.--the instructors I've had at MAPA PPP are very good! I've been twice, once as a newby to learn things the right way, and again a few years later with Instrument Rating to see how many bad habits I had picked up and get rid of them.

[PTK]

Don't fly higher or lower. Fly the approach as published. If you find yourself a little higher you'll typically see the gs come in before the gs intercept point. If you dip a little lower fly level. If your ap captures from below it should capture but don't climb chasing it, just fly level. If you find yourself too low go missed.

Definitely practice this at the MAPA seminar. They are excellent. I've been to two of them and looking forward to the next one in September.

[Marauder]

Ok, I do have the autopilot and the HSI manuel, I will take a look, and see.

From my understandinf of what you are saying, if it is capturing GS from Abouve, I should fly higher than published, but if capturing from below, I should fly at the minimum published ???

Just wondering since I don't have yet a proficient knowledge of all IFR stuff and my CFI dos'nt know my plane or AP, GS well. Maybe the MAPA guys this weekend can help !!!

As Hank & Peter mentioned, you should the approach at the published altitude. Intercepting from above could have you flying the wrong slope.

As for CFIIs, you may be working with the wrong guy. Many of the Doogie Howsers don't know Mooneys well enough. I have flown with CFIIs in my Mooney and it was clear they did not know how to fly my particular plane correctly. There are differences in Mooney models. For those of us who own older models, we have significant speed restrictions on gear deployment. I need to plan my approaches to be below VLo in order to be stable for the approach.

The MAPA instructors are well versed in the requirements for each model type. Hopefully the instructor you are working with has helped you figured out power settings to give you the correct settings to fly IFR. That is a good portion of the process.

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[drapo]

If I understand your graphic, you would need to be at 9000', 9nm final to get the false capture! That's way above GS!

[jlunseth]

On your question about when to configure for landing, that is done at the FAF with Time Gear Power Tower Lights (Gear lights) Lights (Landing Lights) Lights (Runway Lights turned on). In my turbo aircraft I fly the approach before the FAF at about 24.5 inches which gives me 120 knots and is within my gear speed. At the FAF I drop the gear first, then reduce power to about 18 and when the speed is within flaps range I drop one notch of flaps. That combination gives me 90 knots down the glideslope and I am configured for landing.

One of the most important things you can do for yourself in learning to fly instrument, is to get your procedures down, and mnemonics like Time Gear Power Tower Lights Lights Lights helps you do that every time.

Generally, if you fail to get the gear down at the FAF you will not be able to maintain your desired approach speed because of the lack of drag, and that is your warning that you screwed up on the gear.