IFR question

[HRM]

I have been doing a lot of IFR studying on my own and have a question that I hope someone can answer.

 

When you TO into an IFR flight plan, are you in contact with ATC and do they have you on radar via your transponder?

 

In other words, is it just like flight following but under IMC?

 

If you miss a fix or are unable to figure out where you are via VOR, do they just tell you? Do they vector you back where you need to be if you get lost?

[John Pleisse]

Glad you are getting your instrument ticket. You will be proud of yourself and be a great pilot.

 

You will take off in controlled air space or be given a void time clearance. Your transponder will be tagged at about 1,600 msl and then you need to stay on that code unless otherwise instructed. You will follow IFR rules from the second you get a clearance or release.

 

If you blow through a fix, cough it up and ask for help. Many times fixes are for traffic flows and you could be stumbling into oncoming traffic. If ATC figures it out first and queries you, give it up...comply..... and get back on track. They are all usually helpful and PP's themselves.

 

My quick $.02.

[wishboneash]

Lots of possible answers depending on where you take off from (controlled/uncontrolled airport), airspace you take off from etc. 

But simply, after take off, you will switch over to the approach/departure frequency and report your position. You may or may not be in radar coverage. Assuming you are in radar coverage, they may ask you to ident (or may not) on your transponder once they see you on their scope. You will then follow the flight plan or receive amended instructions, vectors etc. If you "miss" the fix, you may get a query from the controller about your position/intentions and may get a vector to the next fix. It depends on the workload and airspace. Try to avoid getting lost in IMC in the first place and admit to your situation! I am sure others can chime in and provide more answers, but you will need to get good instruction if you are planning on taking on this rating. It will definitely make you better pilot.

[BKlott]

If you depart from a controlled airport, the Control Tower will coordinate your release with Departure Control. If the airport you are departing from has a Terminal Radar feature, you will be visible on radar right off the bat. Once you take-off the Control Tower will tell you when to contact Departure Control. You will have been given the frequency in your clearance before taxi.

If you depart from an uncontrolled field, it can be handled in several different ways. Your airport may have a Remote Communications feature that will put you in touch ATC. You may use this feature to obtain your clearance while you are on the ground, in run-up area and ready to go. I forget what the official name was but I'm thinking GCO for Ground Communications Outlet? You would obtain your clearance from this remote Clearance Delivery function, then switch to the Common Traffic Advisory frequency to announce your departure and then contact Departure Control once airborne.

If your airport did not have the GCO feature, then you would need to contact ATC via telephone (thank goodness for cell phones nowadays) obtain your departure clearance which would come with a void time. You needed to be airborne and in touch with Departure Control prior to your void time. You can imagine standing in the office or at a pay phone, obtaining your clearance and then running to the airplane, firing up and running through your checklists, run-up etc. and trying to get off before your void time expired! Not the best situation.

Suggest you obtain a book entitled Instrument Flying Refresher by Richard Collins and Patrick Bradley. I think it would be a big help to you. Good luck with your Instrument Rating. Flying IFR well is very personally rewarding.

[HRM]

Lots of possible answers depending on where you take off from (controlled/uncontrolled airport), airspace you take off from etc. 

But simply, after take off, you will switch over to the approach/departure frequency and report your position. You may or may not be in radar coverage. Assuming you are in radar coverage, they may ask you to ident (or may not) on your transponder once they see you on their scope. You will then follow the flight plan or receive amended instructions, vectors etc. If you "miss" the fix, you may get a query from the controller about your position/intentions and may get a vector to the next fix. 

 

Thanks, this answers my questions. I fly out of KBPT and it is towered and serves as the eastern ATC center for Houston Approach--or I think it does. Before I take off I call Clearance Delivery and just say Mooney 5976Q is VFR to KEDC at 4500' (or something like that). They then give me my squawk code. When I call tower to take off they give me an initial altitude and heading. Once airborne I am told to contact Houston Approach and then they give further instructions after they say "radar contact". In fact, I pretty much get instructions all the way to where I am going.

 

So, I am now seeing that IFR flight is pretty much the same, except that now you cannot see outside and the enroute and landing phases are a bit ( ) more complicated. I am guessing that pilots on IFR plans do not get traffic advisories, but other than that are pretty much the same. I used to think that all the IFR flights were on a different frequency or something from the VFR flights, but I hear the controllers giving vectors and other "IFR-like" instructions to other planes.

 

I am really not in a rush to get my IFR rating and my workload (not cockpit, real life) is so jumpy that I've decided to fly "VFR-IFR"; i.e., flight following, when I do get a chance to fly and to study up for when I can take the plunge. A buddy of mine, shortly after he became a judge, got his rating in his 60's so there is still hope.

[ArtVandelay]

Suggest you obtain a book entitled Instrument Flying Refresher by Richard Collins and Patrick Bradley. I think it would be a big help to you. Good luck with your Instrument Rating. Flying IFR well is very personally rewarding.

That book doesn't get good reviews, more of a collection of stories, I would recommend "flying IFR" by Richard Collins

[Danb]

Actually flying you do get traffic advisories, one of the main duties of atc is to keep metal from hitting metal or plastic planes...

[Cruiser]

the communications you describe is the same for IFR departure.The BIG difference will be the route (flight plan) you are cleared to follow.

IFR flights do get traffic advisories since separation is the PRIMARY purpose. You are expected to see and avoid if possible.

Getting your IFR endorsement will make you a better pilot. 

Your insurance company may even reward you for doing so.

[201er]

The biggest difference between IFR and flight following is that under IFR you are obligated to follow instructions whereas under VFR they are merely advisory. VFR flight following is basically fake, non-mandatory IFR in VMC. Thats why you see a lot of similarity.

As for the missing a fix question, that could be a borderline emergency. This is why you are required to receive so much training for an instrument rating. By the time you do, you will be quite skilled and this shouldn't happen short of a major problem. Keep in mind that it is up to you as PIC to maintain situational awareness. ATC may lose you on radar or not notice something. Although having another set of eyes monitoring you under IFR is a great thing for safety, you really cannot count on it. You are in control of your own safety.

For example on an instrument approach into a remote uncontrolled field, ATC may cut you lose before the final approach fix. You are ln your own there. Only you can determine proper navigation without that extra help. This is why you must train to the level that you are in full awareness and capability. Great that you are thinking about these things. Some instrument training will not only clear it up but make you a better VFR pilot as well.

[BKlott]

There may be some vague similarities between flying VFR with flight following and the enroute phase of IFR flight if it was being conducted in VFR conditions. Beyond that, there is a world of difference.

IFR flight is a "thinking mans game". You must be able to fly the airplane with a great deal of precision with regards to maintaining heading and altitude. That part must be "second nature" because you are going to be very busy navigating, monitoring ATC communications and visualizing where you are and what is likely to come next. Of course, all of this while you are maintaining your instrument scan and monitoring the airplane as well.

Of course, if you do not have any on-board weather displays, when you are "in the soup" you really don't know what is coming up ahead. Listening for clues on the air in addition to your pre-flight weather analysis takes on new importance in your life. A timely query to ATC may keep you from inadvertently penetrating a nasty active cell that you could otherwise see coming if you were flying along in VFR conditions.

The airline pros have the benefit of flying in the system on a daily basis. It is the norm or routine for them. When I did it, it was mainly for the one flying summer vacation that I might or might not take every year. That is what contributes to making IFR flying in instrument conditions for recreational pilots a very big challenge to do well. We just don't do it very often.

I would begin practicing 4 to 6 months in advance of an IFR vacation trip just to get my flying skills and thinking process sharp. Just being "current" was never good enough. You want to be "sharp". It is challenging enough as it is when you are sharp so you don't want to make it more difficult for yourself trying to hold a heading and altitude while you're trying to figure out what you're supposed to do next.

I found that for me, when I was on top of my game, that I could do two IFR legs in one day and that was it. I was mentally drained and exhausted. Time to get something to eat, hit the motel and go to bed. The never ending thought process that you go through while flying IFR in the weather when all of the pressure and responsibility is on your shoulders and yours alone is very demanding.

Please don't think that VFR with flight following is the same or really, anything like IFR flying. There is a WORLD of difference between the two.

[Hank]

For example on an instrument approach into a remote uncontrolled field, ATC may cut you lose before the final approach fix. You are ln your own there. Only you can determine proper navigation without that extra help. This is why you must train to the level that you are in full awareness and capability. Great that you are thinking about these things. Some instrument training will not only clear it up but make you a better VFR pilot as well.

This is especially noticeable away from flat country. Fly some approaches without foggles and look around. Doing the VOR 28 approach into KGAS was an eye opener! It's on the banks of the Ohio River, with ridges on both sides less than a mile apart. And some towers. Over the River and town. Really brought home the need to keep the needles centered!

[thinwing]

going back to your original question...After Ifr training you wont be missing fixes...also you will be maintaining altitude and airspeed very precisely and precise course ,with little or no deviations.This kind of flying is very mechanical and after so many hours becomes tiring and stressful.Add to the additional decision making regarding weather (that is creating the IFR conditions)and after enough time ,task overload sets in.This is why single pilot IFR is so challenging....the pros,ie airlines do not allow it,they require two pilots plus very. Good autopilots so typically very little handflying is done.For us pvt ,part 91 ,guys we are allowed to fly single pilot but I have come to believe that other than short legs or climbs thru stratus layers to visual conditions ,long (600 nm) frontal crossing solid IMC requires either a second rated pilot or a good autopilot.That being said ,there is really no subsitute for actually training and flying in IMC..you can study and read about it but its like reading about sex...you have to be there!!...good luck with your training..

[carusoam]

On the other side of the coin...

Ordinary human beings are capable of safe IFR flight.

It does take a fair amount of effort to stay current.

It helps to be part of a community to share experience and flights.

For some people, multitasking is not that challenging.

For others, the cognitive challenge of doing one thing and paying attention to other things is too much.

Some parts of the country are more difficult to fly in the system.

Other parts, are pretty easy.

The only way to know how hard it is for you is get some training.

Go get started...

Find some ATC recordings or Internet broadcasts and listen. Try to develop a picture in your mind of what is going on.

Somebody recently posted a video of their Mooney flight on an IFR flight plan in and out of an airport.

Approach control has the most complex communications to get used to.

The challenge is to identify each time they are talking to you and comply. They use your tail number.

If you get cognitively overloaded, you start missing your tail number... Nobody is happy with that...

They won't like you very much for going through an altitude or miss a heading change.

It is that serious.

It is really challenging at first.

It really is possible for ordinary people to do it really well.

There is some really good equipment available to help you fly the plane while you manage the IFR portion.

Some ordinary people can get really good at the IFR system.

You won't know how good you are and where you need some work until you get started...

Find a Mooney CFII in your neighborhood...

So many possibilities,

-a-

[rbridges]

Write everything down.  May not be necessary, but I even write down altitude changes.  It will be hard to miss a fix, but I guess it can happen.  Sometimes they will give a fix that I can't understand, so don't be shy about asking them to spell it.  

[Robert C.]

 

I am really not in a rush to get my IFR rating and my workload (not cockpit, real life) is so jumpy that I've decided to fly "VFR-IFR"; i.e., flight following, when I do get a chance to fly and to study up for when I can take the plunge. A buddy of mine, shortly after he became a judge, got his rating in his 60's so there is still hope.

 

For that reason I signed up for one of those 10-day accelerated programs. You really can get your IR in 10 days. The only catch is that you need to have passed the written before starting the 10 day program. I just got myself the King School online program and spent as many evenings as I could for 2 months practicing the test until I knew I could pass with a high score.

 

The whole process works like a charm.

 

Just do it

 

[201er]

There may be some vague similarities between flying VFR with flight following and the enroute phase of IFR flight if it was being conducted in VFR conditions. Beyond that, there is a world of difference.

...

Please don't think that VFR with flight following is the same or really, anything like IFR flying. There is a WORLD of difference between the two.

I think you are confusing instrument flying with instrument flight rules. You can fly IFR (instrument flight rules) in VMC (visual meteorological conditions) all you want. In that case, you don't have to maintain instrument scan, worry about weather (that much),

 

In less busy places, you can take off VFR, pickup IFR in the air, file and fly direct to your destination, cancel, and land VFR... and there would be no difference between that or flying VFR with traffic advisories. Flying instrument flight rules is no big deal... it's precise instrument flying that is the real challenge. You need an instrument rating and to meet a few currency requirements to FILE IFR. But to fly instruments, you need a certain level of proficiency and capability (relative to the conditions) that goes beyond that.

 

Just my four half-pennies.

[Marauder]

I have been doing a lot of IFR studying on my own and have a question that I hope someone can answer.

 

When you TO into an IFR flight plan, are you in contact with ATC and do they have you on radar via your transponder?

 

In other words, is it just like flight following but under IMC?

 

If you miss a fix or are unable to figure out where you are via VOR, do they just tell you? Do they vector you back where you need to be if you get lost?

 

I would suggest rather than trying to study on your own, get an organized course from one of the providers (Sporty's, King, etc.) or attend an official ground school for IFR to learn this. The IFR world is less forgiving of mistakes as you describe. It is a world of rules and less tolerant of "mistakes".

[N201MKTurbo]

When you depart IFR you will always have a clearance. The clearance will specify what you will do on departure. The clearance is generally the worst case scenario. It assumes that you will have a comm failure just after takeoff and will fly to your destination NORDO.

your departure clearance will normally be amended as soon as you contact departure. They will generally simplify if and give you something more direct then the original clearance.

You must be ready to fly the departure clearance when you take the runway. But in almost all cases you will be given better vectors, altitudes and times then the original clearance very soon after departure.

Don't worry about when you will be in radar contact or when you will be in radio contact with ATC, that is all taken into account in the departure clearance. ATC knows when they will be able to see and talk to you. If you fly the clearance you are guaranteed to be OK.

[HRM]

Actually flying you do get traffic advisories, one of the main duties of atc is to keep metal from hitting metal or plastic planes...

 

You've got me. How do you see traffic if you are deep in the soup?

[ArtVandelay]

You've got me. How do you see traffic if you are deep in the soup?

They don't know what your conditions are, sometimes they ask...

[AndyFromCB]

For those of us flying IFR in the midwest, what's a fix 

[RocketAviator]

For those of us flying IFR in the midwest, what's a fix 

In aviation, an intersection is a virtual navigational fix that helps aircraft maintain their flight plan. It is usually defined as the intersection (in the geometrical sense) of two VOR radials.

[AndyFromCB]

In aviation, an intersection is a virtual navigational fix that helps aircraft maintain their flight plan. It is usually defined as the intersection (in the geometrical sense) of two VOR radials.

Yeah, we don't do them fancy things here. All I ever hear is cleared direct as filed, climb and maintain FLXXX

[Hank]

ATC's job is traffic separation of IFR traffic regardless of weather and visibility. If they give a traffic call and I'm IMC, I respond "no joy, 4DJ is IMC" to let them know that I do not and cannot see traffic. Separation is provided via radar and vectors; that's the job of the people in soft chairs down on the ground, to keep other planes away from me when I can't see them.

[gsxrpilot]

My experience has been that most IFR flying is NOT in "the soup".  Typically you might take off and climb through the clouds up to the clear air and be VMC for most of the flight before descending back through the clouds and shooting the approach to landing. Most of us non-comercial IFR pilots have to do regular hood time each year because we can't seem to find enough time in the soup to stay current.