Starting a New Arguement

[Bob - S50]

Since there has been a lively discussion on another thread about bank angle and the base turn, I found myself tempted to stray off the thread but have resisted.  Instead I'll start a new one.  Here are the questions:

 

What do you use to control airspeed?

What do you use to control altitude?

How do you control your flight path in the base turn?

 

I'm in the throttle controls airspeed, pitch controls altitude camp.  If I run out of one, the other has to control both (ie full power climb or idle descent).

 

I am fully aware that a change in one will almost always require a change in the other, depending on what you are trying to do.

 

For the base turn I look for a sight picture.  If I'm high I put the nose down to maintain my desired flight path.  If I'm fast or slow I use the throttle to fix it.  And along that line, if I'm high but on speed, I know that when I lower the nose to get back on the path, I'm going to have to reduce power to avoid getting fast and vice versa.

 

Let the mud slinging begin.

 

Bob

[yvesg]

For me it is this:

To control airspeed I use pitch

To control altitude (during an approach) I use throttle

Actually the opposite of you Bob!

Yves

[triple8s]

Pitch to control airspeed

Power to control altitude

Improper use of either to fix being at the wrong place with too much or too little energy is the root cause of the smoking hole

Altitude should be considered stored energy with the idea if it being used up just passed the numbers, not before not after. Bob Hoover had it mastered.

[FloridaMan]

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/9175-stall-turn-or-hammerhead-turn/page-2

[Blackhawk]

I've been in the camp that this is a silly argument that results in poor flying habits and that it depends on the situation. Pitch and power usually go hand in hand.

 

As an example, student gets sloppy with pitch control on approach and pulls back slightly on the yoke- a common situation while turning duringg an approach if they are flying with a death grip on  the yoke. They will now be high and slow. A pilot who has been taught "either/or" may look at their high approach path and pull back power to correct this without fixing their pitch. This will then translate into getting even slower.

My response as an instructor in this scenario is to ask, "Do you have a pitch problem or a power problem?" They have a pitch problem that needs to be corrected. In the process they may need to initially reduce power as they lower pitch to keep from getting too fast (depending on how slow they got), but then adjust power and pitch once glide path is reestablished.

 

Another scenario. Pilot is doing everything correctly, but an "updraft" causes the airplane to balloon. Airspeed is still fine. Again, the "either/or" pilot may think "power controls altitude" or "pitch controls altitude" and try to correct this with either pitch or power. The proper response to correct this is a reduction of power and a reduction of pitch. When glidepath is reestablished power must be added and pitch increased.

[John Pleisse]

Pitch, if VFR pattern work. On instruments or short fields ops, it would be the oposite, pitch for path-power for performance, in that case. Flying the pattern, though? Pitch.

[Hank]

Me, too, in the pattern:

- Pitch for airspeed

- Power for altitude

Ever since primary flight training.

[midlifeflyer]

What makes you think it's a "new argument"?  It's an old and stupid one.

 

Really. I once told a story about landing an M20C in serious windshear - I ended up carrying full power all the way to touchdown - and was told in no uncertain terms I was no longer alive because I described my use of power "incorrectly."

 

Imagine all that fuss about a beginning teaching technique.

[timpercarpio]

Just think about a coupled approach. The autopilot stays on glideslope with pitch adjustments and the pilot controls airspeed with throttle. It's the same when you hand fly an approach.

[Danb]

Very interesting topic..those of us who subscribe to the IFR Refresher magazine...in July 2014 issue contemplated this issue..based in the real world not just our stock answer's

 

theres were mainly aimed at Missed approaches MISS with power or MISS with pitch first.

 

A poll  of 30 flight instructors were taken from senior airline captions, military pilots and all in between plus a few who worked at respected training companies

 

12 of the instructors said power then pitch.........8 said pitch then power........4 said simultaneous application of power and pitch (which I basically subscribe to)...3 said level off, then power then pitch was correct ....

 

When the author pushed for more definitive answers the majority stated simultaneous application is warranted 

 

An earlier article based on Bob question also resulted in the simultaneous power and pitch..

 

So when I actually thought about Bob's question..it depends on the situation where you are(altitude and going)

 

Wx wind conditions etc

 

my stock answer would have been pitch.>airspeed.....power>altitude.....but in reality I believe it depends on the situation and the need at times to do both simultaneously..

 

 

great topic

[Glenn]

Just think about a coupled approach. The autopilot stays on glideslope with pitch adjustments and the pilot controls airspeed with throttle. It's the same when you hand fly an approach.

The autopilots in our planes use pitch to stay on glide-slope, because they do not have access to power.  

 

When hand-flying an approach use power to control rate of decent and trim for desired airspeed adding small pitch adjustments as needed and your workload becomes much easier. 

[kmyfm20s]

On approach, above 80 knots its power to control airspeed and my pitch attitude with be the same even after flap aplication. Below 80 knots I back to the basics, pitch is airspeed power is altitude. It's the nature of our wings on the Mooney. Once your behind the power curve you need a lot power than brand C or B to maintain altitude.

[aviatoreb]

Since there has been a lively discussion on another thread about bank angle and the base turn, I found myself tempted to stray off the thread but have resisted.  Instead I'll start a new one.  Here are the questions:

 

What do you use to control airspeed?

What do you use to control altitude?

How do you control your flight path in the base turn?

 

I'm in the throttle controls airspeed, pitch controls altitude camp.  If I run out of one, the other has to control both (ie full power climb or idle descent).

 

I am fully aware that a change in one will almost always require a change in the other, depending on what you are trying to do.

 

For the base turn I look for a sight picture.  If I'm high I put the nose down to maintain my desired flight path.  If I'm fast or slow I use the throttle to fix it.  And along that line, if I'm high but on speed, I know that when I lower the nose to get back on the path, I'm going to have to reduce power to avoid getting fast and vice versa.

 

Let the mud slinging begin.

 

Bob

 

I skip control - I just buy an AoA and let it figure it out for me until I can find the money I blew to hire a CFI train me on what to do.  :-O

[wishboneash]

Short term, you can do what you want;  pitch for airspeed or altitude (sloppy flying). Long term, pitch always for airspeed and power for altitude. Read Stick and Rudder - all you wanted to know about basic aerodynamics of flying!

[Immelman]

I use the elevator to control angle of attack. That's really the most important thing at the end of the day.

 

Beyond that, a combination of pitch and power to produce the desired combination of airspeed and climb or descent rate.

[Danb]

Erik I have an aoa but still need to find the ground..

[aviatoreb]

Erik I have an aoa but still need to find the ground..

 

I cant help you.  You need to tell me which ground.  Electrical ground or terra firma ground. :-)

[Robert C.]

Oh boy, here we go again

 

Highly recommend you all go to Don Kaye's website and buy a copy of his DVD on how to land a Mooney.

 

Robert

[Openwheeler3]

I prefer a simultaneous adjustment of pitch and power to change the aircraft's flight profile to my desired state. Clear as mud?

[aviatoreb]

Oh boy, here we go again

 

Highly recommend you all go to Don Kaye's website and buy a copy of his DVD on how to land a Mooney.

 

Robert

 

+1 that.  First thing I did 4 years ago when I was in late process of purchasing N10933 before I even had it to do to start Mooney transition training - I purchased Don Kaye's video on landing. Its wonderful esp for me in repeatedly over many days to develop the correct sight picture.  It really helped ease my transition smoothly.  I never actually met you Don but I feel like at one point you sat to my right during my transition.  Thank you!

Well spent few bucks on his video folks!

[Andy95W]

Easily proven: set 23", 2400 rpm. Trim for level flight. (Trim = pitch)

Reduce power 2". Don't touch anything else.

Airplane descends, airspeed stays the same.

Therefore power = altitude

And pitch = airspeed.

[duke]

CORRECT.  if aircraft is trimmed to fly at whateaver airspeed you pick, it will remain there regardless of power setting. So on final at say 80knts, and are a bit short--add power, don't toutch elevator, speed will remain at 80knts.

[aviatoreb]

Therefore power = altitude

And pitch = airspeed.

 

Pitch for speed used to bother me when I very first started before I even did solo - I always instinctively wanted to pull on the yoke to fix altitude - meaning pitch for altitude but that is not the correct way - I knew better but my intuition was cross wired backwards so it was a problen - until I thought of the followng.  Think of the airplane like a horse.  On a hurse you pull the reigns to slow it down.  And you push (sort of) to get the horse to speed up.  Same with the airplane - pull on the yoke to slow the horse- I mean airplane - down.  That instantly fixed my intuition henceafter.

[Blackhawk]

Easily proven: set 23", 2400 rpm. Trim for level flight. (Trim = pitch)

Reduce power 2". Don't touch anything else.

Airplane descends, airspeed stays the same.

Therefore power = altitude

And pitch = airspeed.

Pull onto the runway.  Push and pull the yoke. Nothing happens. Airspeed does not increase.

[Hank]

Pull onto the runway.  Push and pull the yoke. Nothing happens. Airspeed does not increase.

 

That's because you haven't added any throttle for altitude. We are discussing control use in flight.

 

Crank your airplane and pull away from parking. Turn yoke to taxi to runway. Hit FBO building instead. How about some common sense?