Best $200k(ish) Airplane?

[Pinecone]

I am still trying to figure out how a NA Mooney is a lot faster for the same fuel flow than a NA Cardinal.  But a TN Cardinal is as fast as a Turbo Mooney at the same fuel flow.

[KLRDMD]

22 hours ago, bigmo said:

I would also not shy away from a later gen SR20. $220K seems to be about the entry point for an SR20 that's pretty turn-key.

I recently paid less than that for a very nice SR20 G2. I'm an LOP guy and see 145 KTAS on 8.5-9.0 GPH which falls a bit short of his 160 kt requirement.

[Jetter2]

2 hours ago, 201Steve said:

 

I recently had a (non rg) cardinal chase me down to drop off my airplane about 250 miles away. He departed as I was opening my hangar door. I took off prob 20 mins later.  I caught him halfway along the trip and landed 15 mins prior. Same horsepower and engine

Stiff-legged Cardinals have a 180hp motor - the RGs have the 200hp engine. 

Most the Cardinal RG folks I talk to are averaging 145-150 KTAS.   Nobody denies how slippy the Mooney's and Commanches are -  but the Cardinal is only 1 of 2 strutless models they made - I think it surprises people. 

There is a STC to put a IO-390 in the Cardinal but I'm not sure its really worth it. 

"Mr Cardinal" has a video here showing ~ 153KTAS @ 70% power. 
His mods = Powerflow, Champion air filter, Hartzell prop (and a cool day).

 

 
 

The next guy is doing 147 KTAS @ 9GPH @ 50deg LOP / 66% Power @ 4500ft  - he was having obvious Tach issues in this video.   

Here is the same guy doing 157 KTAS @ 11.5k 

Edited 9 hours ago by Jetter2

[Marc_B]

@Jetter2 Don’t think you’ll find your Cardinal faster than most well trimmed Mooneys and certainly not compared to turbo Mooneys. The M20K 252 & Encore strikes the sweet spot with fuel efficiency and speed per HP. The long bodies have larger engines and are faster but with higher fuel flow and weight.

If a Cardinal RG is your jam, just go with it. No need to justify a decision that has big personal and some emotional aspects.  Owning any aircraft is WAY better than owning none!!

But don’t come to a Mooney fan website expecting to validate the conclusion you had when you first joined.  We love our Mooneys here! 

[Jetter2]

5 minutes ago, Marc_B said:

 But don’t come to a Mooney fan website expecting to validate the conclusion you had when you first joined.  We love our Mooneys here! 

I love the team pride - I feel like I am at Medieval Times! 

I was just curious what you guys were seeing.  I have always been eyeballing Mooneys and this place is a WEALTH of knowledge - I just wanted to hear the drum beats

FWIW - I give the Cardinals folks a rash of hell as well with the "Well the Mooney is faster.." stuff  

Edited 9 hours ago by Jetter2

[Slick Nick]

It depends what you're after. If it's speed and efficiency, the Mooney will spank the Cardinal 7 days a week. If things like big doors, top mounted wings, and tiny cargo compartments are important to you, the Cardinal is the way to go.

[Echo]

19 hours ago, Jetter2 said:

I just keep coming back to them no matter what else I look at.    

Any of the older folks in here ever tire of getting in and out of a low wing? 

No.  Enjoy that Cardinal's gear pack issues and the first time the wind grabs that sail of a door and flings it forward.  They are pretty though.

[Jetter2]

7 minutes ago, Echo said:

No.  Enjoy that Cardinal's gear pack issues and the first time the wind grabs that sail of a door and flings it forward.  They are pretty though.

Gear door?  The 177RG has no main gear doors.

 

9 minutes ago, Slick Nick said:

It depends what you're after. If it's speed and efficiency, the Mooney will spank the Cardinal 7 days a week. If things like big doors, top mounted wings, and tiny cargo compartments are important to you, the Cardinal is the way to go.

I do really like the big doors and how low it sits to the ground so you don't need to jump up into it like a 172/182. 

My first 100hrs post PPL was spent flying an Archer around - I never like crawling around on the ground for sumping fuel or tie-downs - YMMV.

[ArtVandelay]

Stiff-legged Cardinals have a 180hp motor - the RGs have the 200hp engine. 

Most the Cardinal RG folks I talk to are averaging 145-150 KTAS.   Nobody denies how slippy the Mooney's and Commanches are -  but the Cardinal is only 1 of 2 strutless models they made - I think it surprises people. 

There is a STC to put a IO-390 in the Cardinal but I'm not sure its really worth it. 

"Mr Cardinal" has a video here showing ~ 153KTAS @ 70% power. 
His mods = Powerflow, Champion air filter, Hartzell prop (and a cool day).
[/url]  
 
 

The next guy is doing 147 KTAS @ 9GPH @ 50deg LOP / 66% Power @ 4500ft  - he was having obvious Tach issues in this video.   

Here is the same guy doing 157 KTAS @ 11.5k 

There’s many variables when it comes to speed and engine power. My top speed varies 7 knots just on weather conditions (hot, humid =slow, cold,dry = fast). Us Floridian pilots are always at a disadvantage when it comes to bragging rights.
Then there are mods like powerflow exhaust, propellers, etc.
Then there is instrumentation errors, and pilot errors (intentional or not).
Using what’s posted on the internet is like rummaging through the garbage, you’re not going to get anything worthwhile.

[Ibra]

1 hour ago, Jetter2 said:

I think it surprises people

I am definetly surprised, I would pay cash if I see 175kts at 10gph (seems like Risen rather than Cardinal) 

160kts at 10gph seems plausible (some Mooneys, Comanches) 

Edited 8 hours ago by Ibra

[Jetter2]

5 minutes ago, ArtVandelay said:

There’s many variables when it comes to speed and engine power. My top speed varies 7 knots just on weather conditions (hot, humid =slow, cold,dry = fast). Us Floridian pilots are always at a disadvantage when it comes to bragging rights.
Then there are mods like powerflow exhaust, propellers, etc.
Then there is instrumentation errors, and pilot errors (intentional or not).
Using what’s posted on the internet is like rummaging through the garbage, you’re not going to get anything worthwhile.

Got it.  Everyone saying their M20s do 155kts (all over these forums) is fake news I guess. 

 

C'mon man 

 

2 minutes ago, Ibra said:

I am definetly surprised, I would pay cash if I see 175kts at 10gph (these seems like Risen figures) 

Here is the TN folks doing  177kts @ 17.5k on 11gph 
https://taturbo.com/177features.html

[toto]

Cardinals are definitely pretty, as are (imo) the later 210s with the cantilever wing.

But I always think the Cessna single-engine gear swing looks like an insect molting

[Jetter2]

1 minute ago, toto said:

But I always think the Cessna single-engine gear swing looks like an insect molting

It is very hard to watch - "Rube Goldberg Machine" comes to mind 

[EricJ]

It seems like all of the cantilever-wing single-engine cessnas have ADs on the carry-through spars that are potentially very nasty and instrusive.

All of the single-engine RG Cessnas have trouble with the gear power packs, but Mooneys arent especially problem-free in this area as well, although I'd argue better from a general maintenance perspective.

We are blessed with relatively problem-free basic airframes compared to many.    Everybody deals with corrosion, but so many other airframes have difficult ADs addressing basic things like carry-through spars, elevator hinges, elevator spars, wing attachment issues, etc., etc.   

It doesn't take a very thorough perusement of mooneyspace to discover that Mooneys are not especially problem-free, either, but there are an awful lot of common problems that we don't have.

[Jetter2]

25 minutes ago, EricJ said:

It seems like all of the cantilever-wing single-engine cessnas have ADs on the carry-through spars that are potentially very nasty and instrusive.

All of the single-engine RG Cessnas have trouble with the gear power packs, but Mooneys arent especially problem-free in this area as well, although I'd argue better from a general maintenance perspective.

We are blessed with relatively problem-free basic airframes compared to many.    Everybody deals with corrosion, but so many other airframes have difficult ADs addressing basic things like carry-through spars, elevator hinges, elevator spars, wing attachment issues, etc., etc.   

It doesn't take a very thorough perusement of mooneyspace to discover that Mooneys are not especially problem-free, either, but there are an awful lot of common problems that we don't have.

The Carry-Through Spar has been already addressed pretty much fleet wide - it started with the 210 crash in Australia. 

To your other point though - a low wing frame like a Mooney or Arrow are about as simple as they come - and everyone knows how to work on them. 

If you walk into ownership with the same lens as owning a classic car - I think it makes the MX checks such less 

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, Jetter2 said:

It is very hard to watch - "Rube Goldberg Machine" comes to mind 

For sure! I have to avert my eyes

It's like it's powered by two teams of hamsters with ropes and pulleys competing to see which side can get the gear leg up the fastest...and they aren't very well fed

[exM20K]

14 hours ago, Shiroyuki said:

Yikes.. But clear ice like that doesn't affect performance as bad as some fluffy rime ice i suppose.

Wrong. Clear is most often produced by SuperCooled Large Droplet (SLD) moisture in the air. SLD is no bueno, FIKI, No-hazard, or naked. Turbine or piston, too.

-dan

[LANCECASPER]

2 hours ago, toto said:

Cardinals are definitely pretty, as are (imo) the later 210s with the cantilever wing.

But I always think the Cessna single-engine gear swing looks like an insect molting

I had a 172RG for a year, over 30 years ago, and I always thought the gear swing looked like a giraffe getting up from a long nap.

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Jetter2 said:

To your other point though - a low wing frame like a Mooney or Arrow are about as simple as they come - and everyone knows how to work on them. 

Lots of low-wing airplanes have wing issues, e.g., they fall off of Arrows and other PA-28s, so there's a potentially expensive AD to address the attachments.    I remember when Beech 18s were pretty much all grounded until they got the spars x-rayed.   T-34s have spar issues, etc., etc.

Other than corrosion, which everybody deals with, Mooney wings and airframes are pretty easy to own.    The metal ones, anyway. 

[AJ88V]

11 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Other than corrosion, which everybody deals with, Mooney wings and airframes are pretty easy to own.    The metal ones, anyway. 

Surprised nobody mentioned over-speeding on descent and the tails falling off so you end up UWOF.  Very common Mooney problem. OP wisely wants a Cardinal RG.

[201Steve]

4 hours ago, Jetter2 said:

I feel like I am at Medieval Times! 

Hahahah. Love that reference 

[201Steve]

33 minutes ago, AJ88V said:

Surprised nobody mentioned over-speeding on descent and the tails falling off so you end up UWOF.  Very common Mooney problem.

Lollll. Show me a single example of this very common problem. “An old timer once told me” does not count. I’ll be waiting but I suspect the troll goes back under the bridge!!!

 

alright back to the prime topic. Anyone with a Cardinal RG, you are hereby challenged to a race. Apples to apples. I will travel 200nm to meet.  We pick an airport and a GPS waypoint. Takeoff 1 minute after the other. Time to the waypoint. Let’s go!!!! 

[exM20K]

59 minutes ago, AJ88V said:

Surprised nobody mentioned over-speeding on descent and the tails falling off so you end up UWOF.  Very common Mooney problem. OP wisely wants a Cardinal RG.

AJ with the S&C Bob reference from the wayback machine: FTW!  Just stay out of the Trubulence!

-dan

[hubcap]

Wow, I really never considered the Cardinal as a competitor to the Mooney. I can get 170kts TAS any day of the week on 10 gal/hr of gas with Myrtle (M20K 231). I just need to get up in the teens to do it, which is not typically a problem with the type of traveling we do. If we stay low enough we don't need cannulas we get 150-155 kts on 10 gal/hr.

 

[aviatoreb]

8 minutes ago, hubcap said:

Wow, I really never considered the Cardinal as a competitor to the Mooney. I can get 170kts TAS any day of the week on 10 gal/hr of gas with Myrtle (M20K 231). I just need to get up in the teens to do it, which is not typically a problem with the type of traveling we do. If we stay low enough we don't need cannulas we get 150-155 kts on 10 gal/hr.

 

Well I prefer Mooney - which is why it is what I have.  But the Cardinal is a very nice airplane.  Best looking Cessna and especially easy regress probably compared to any other small GA airplane I can think of.