Mooney 201 lands on high power lines in MD

[Fly Boomer]

12 minutes ago, ilovecornfields said:

You are correct. Hemoglobin has a much higher affinity for carbon monoxide (CO) than oxygen (O2) so if even a small amount of CO is present it will alter the affinity of hemoglobin for oxygen essentially making hemoglobin grab all the oxygen around it but not let it go, thereby impairing oxygen delivery to the tissues and causing what is termed “anemic hypoxia” because there is plenty of oxygen around, but it’s not getting delivered to the tissues.

Carbon dioxide (CO2), the molecule responsible for bubbles in beer, does not have this property so in order for CO2 to cause hypoxia the concentration would have to be so high as to displace the oxygen in the room. The memory aid was to recall that hemoglobin has a high affinity for carbon MONOXIDE only and does not involve CO2.

For further reading:

Pathophysiology

CO toxicity causes impaired oxygen delivery and utilization at the cellular level. CO affects several different sites within the body but has its most profound impact on the organs (eg, brain, heart) with the highest oxygen requirement.

 

Cellular hypoxia from CO toxicity is caused by impedance of oxygen delivery. CO reversibly binds hemoglobin, resulting in relative functional anemia. Because it binds hemoglobin 230-270 times more avidly than oxygen, even small concentrations can result in significant levels of carboxyhemoglobin (HbCO).

 

An ambient CO level of 100 ppm produces an HbCO of 16% at equilibration, which is enough to produce clinical symptoms. Binding of CO to hemoglobin causes an increased binding of oxygen molecules at the three other oxygen-binding sites, resulting in a leftward shift in the oxyhemoglobin dissociation curve and decreasing the availability of oxygen to the already hypoxic tissues.

 

CO binds to cardiac myoglobin with an even greater affinity than to hemoglobin; the resulting myocardial depression and hypotension exacerbates the tissue hypoxia. Decrease in oxygen delivery is insufficient, however, to explain the extent of the CO toxicity. Clinical status often does not correlate well with HbCO level, leading some to postulate an additional impairment of cellular respiration.
 

https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/819987-overview#a5

I usually read these things from top to bottom, but that one needs a TL;DR.

[flyboy0681]

46 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

That makes sense now.

I meant CO but auto correct inserted the dos.

[PT20J]

I had a need to go to KPAE last winter. It was above the LPV minimums for the RNAV Y 16R approach when I took off, but as I was getting vectored ATIS advertised 200-1/2. A Boeing Co. jet ahead went missed. At 200’ DH all I could see was the inside of a cloud. Power, TOGA, get the heck out of there.

Next day, I shot the same approach to 500 overcast. I took note of the environment at 200’. That’s low. Gotta be on your game there.

When I used to do a lot of IPCs, I observed that often pilots not used to missing would put in power, but not pitch positively to climb attitude and instead continue a descent. Apparently the fact that the engine was making a lot of noise caused them to think they were climbing.

One feature I really like with the GFC 500 is that TOGA does not disconnect the autopilot but commands a straight ahead climb.

Skip

 

[A64Pilot]

We had acronyms for everything in the Army, we could legally fly VFR at 300 & 1/2 day 500 & 1 night so inadvertent IMC was possible if not likely

Acronym for that was ATHA, attitude, torque, heading, airspeed. works for airplanes too.

Always expect to go missed, it’s just a go-around.

‘I don’t trust automation as much as you guys do 

[jaylw314]

51 minutes ago, PT20J said:

I had a need to go to KPAE last winter. It was above the LPV minimums for the RNAV Y 16R approach when I took off, but as I was getting vectored ATIS advertised 200-1/2. A Boeing Co. jet ahead went missed. At 200’ DH all I could see was the inside of a cloud. Power, TOGA, get the heck out of there.

Next day, I shot the same approach to 500 overcast. I took note of the environment at 200’. That’s low. Gotta be on your game there.

When I used to do a lot of IPCs, I observed that often pilots not used to missing would put in power, but not pitch positively to climb attitude and instead continue a descent. Apparently the fact that the engine was making a lot of noise caused them to think they were climbing.

One feature I really like with the GFC 500 is that TOGA does not disconnect the autopilot but commands a straight ahead climb.

Skip

200' minimums are pretty comfortable IF you have approach lighting.  The approach lights do a great job keeping you oriented and pointing out where you should be looking for the runway start.  Our runway has an LPV from the other direction without the approach lights with minimums at 250'.  I had to do that once to minimums and THAT caused much more butt-clenching 

I'm pretty sure the GAI approach in question has no approach lights, right?

Edited November 30, 2022 by jaylw314

[jaylw314]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

I usually read these things from top to bottom, but that one needs a TL;DR.

Don't huff car exhaust? 

[Fly Boomer]

43 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

Don't huff car exhaust? 

That's what I needed!

[rbp]

8 hours ago, M20F said:

getting direct to a point to start procedure that was not listed on my GPS as IAF or transition

were you getting vectors-to-final?  on some garmin models on older software, enabling VTF would delete all approach waypoints except the FAF 

[aviatoreb]

5 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

Just wondering who's going to pay for al the mess he did. Insurance goes so far for liability. I doubt that his insurance had a limit so high to cover all the expenses out of this. Has to be multimillion dollar damage we're are talking about here.

How this works out?

How does this work?  Does the public utility pick up the cost of fixing the power stations?  Who pays?  Who pays for the rescue mission with all those fire, power, and medical personnel?  Who pays for the lost power to all the businesses and houses?  200,000 users?  Who pays for the lost business at restaurants, etc?  Does all that come back to the insurance company and the pilot?  I honesty don't know - this is a question.  Is there a lawyer in the house?

[ZuluZulu]

Gotta love a guy actively seeking out media praise for being so calm cool and collected after nearly killing himself, his passenger, and more innocents on the ground. One reporter even compared him to Captain Sully. *eye starts twitching involuntarily*

[rbp]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

Does the public utility pick up the cost of fixing the power stations?  

when i was 17, I couldn't afford new tires, so I had balding bias-plys and managed to spin the car in light rain on the garden state parkway, terminating in a broken utility pole and a bashed in trunk. IIRC, it was about $1800 to fix the pole

[aviatoreb]

4 minutes ago, rbp said:

when i was 17, I couldn't afford new tires, so I had balding bias-plys and managed to spin the car in light rain on the garden state parkway, terminating in a broken utility pole and a bashed in trunk. IIRC, it was about $1800 to fix the pole

Scary.

I wonder if that was because you were negligently culpable vs an act of God/bad luck - or is it your fault and so financial responsibility because it was your car no matter what?

[Ibra]

From the video it seems that approach called him for "low alert" on procedure and he did not reply, maybe as he went into tower frequency? or was too low to receive ATC?

A useful takeaway is to also keep monitoring radar approach frequency on COM2 when switching to untowred airports on COM1, the approach may keep monitoring the procedure on radar, if something was wrong if terms of situational awarness he could have caught it, gone missed and climbed to 3500ft !

 

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Ibra

[MooneyMitch]

28 minutes ago, ZuluZulu said:

One reporter even compared him to Captain Sully.

Now that’s most unfortunate 

[EricJ]

4 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

Exactly.  Any utility will tell you that the at-fault party that damages utility property is responsible for all repairs and damages.  It is no different than you or a contractor severing known and marked underground water, gas and telecom lines or overhead lines - you or the contractor are liable for all damages as well as consequential.  

This is why it's a good idea to maintain at least liability-only if/when it gets difficult to get hull insurance.

It appears that these guys had the airplane in corporate ownership, so if they had liability insurance they should be reasonably protected.   Their insurance is likely gonna get hit hard, and I wouldn't be too surprised if there was a max payout if there were significant power outages caused by the crash (which I haven't heard was the case or not).

 

[midlifeflyer]

51 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

How does this work?  Does the public utility pick up the cost of fixing the power stations?  Who pays?  Who pays for the rescue mission with all those fire, power, and medical personnel?  Who pays for the lost power to all the businesses and houses?  200,000 users?  Who pays for the lost business at restaurants, etc?  Does all that come back to the insurance company and the pilot?  I honesty don't know - this is a question.  Is there a lawyer in the house?

Really no different than with most any damage claim. The utility or whoever owns the power stations or their insurer will pay for the repair. That's pretty basic, regardless of who causes the damage. No one is going to wait for the results of a lawsuit to restore power. Pretty much same for claims for lost business, etc, although those tend to be more difficult due to legal principles of what is called "proximate" or "legal" cause.  The lawyers here may recall the 1968 Kinsman cases from 1st year law school. Keeping it simple, some losses are just considered too remote to allow recovery despite a provable chain of causation.

What happens next depends. If the party paying for the repair thinks there's basis for attaching responsibility to and receiving payment from the pilot or the airframe or the engine or the avionics manufacturer, a claim may be made against them.. Settlement (full or partial) and/or litigation with them and their insurers. In terms of a pilot with limited insurance, part of the calculation is, as in any lawsuit, realistic possibility of actual payment if found liable.

The cost of rescue operations. Some states have statutes permitting recovery. Some don't. Some require only simple negligence, others require more culpability - gross negligence or reckless conduct. 

I know that's not particularly helpful other than as a description of the ballpark. 

 

[201er]

 

[toto]

1 hour ago, midlifeflyer said:

 The lawyers here may recall the 1968 Kinsman cases from 1st year law school. Keeping it simple, some losses are just considered too remote to allow recovery despite a provable chain of causation.

When I read this, an ancient 1L synapse fired that said “Palsgraf”

 

[Echo]

7 hours ago, ilovecornfields said:

You are correct. Hemoglobin has a much higher affinity for carbon monoxide (CO) than oxygen (O2) so if even a small amount of CO is present it will alter the affinity of hemoglobin for oxygen essentially making hemoglobin grab all the oxygen around it but not let it go, thereby impairing oxygen delivery to the tissues and causing what is termed “anemic hypoxia” because there is plenty of oxygen around, but it’s not getting delivered to the tissues.

Carbon dioxide (CO2), the molecule responsible for bubbles in beer, does not have this property so in order for CO2 to cause hypoxia the concentration would have to be so high as to displace the oxygen in the room. The memory aid was to recall that hemoglobin has a high affinity for carbon MONOXIDE only and does not involve CO2.

For further reading:

Pathophysiology

CO toxicity causes impaired oxygen delivery and utilization at the cellular level. CO affects several different sites within the body but has its most profound impact on the organs (eg, brain, heart) with the highest oxygen requirement.

 

Cellular hypoxia from CO toxicity is caused by impedance of oxygen delivery. CO reversibly binds hemoglobin, resulting in relative functional anemia. Because it binds hemoglobin 230-270 times more avidly than oxygen, even small concentrations can result in significant levels of carboxyhemoglobin (HbCO).

 

An ambient CO level of 100 ppm produces an HbCO of 16% at equilibration, which is enough to produce clinical symptoms. Binding of CO to hemoglobin causes an increased binding of oxygen molecules at the three other oxygen-binding sites, resulting in a leftward shift in the oxyhemoglobin dissociation curve and decreasing the availability of oxygen to the already hypoxic tissues.

 

CO binds to cardiac myoglobin with an even greater affinity than to hemoglobin; the resulting myocardial depression and hypotension exacerbates the tissue hypoxia. Decrease in oxygen delivery is insufficient, however, to explain the extent of the CO toxicity. Clinical status often does not correlate well with HbCO level, leading some to postulate an additional impairment of cellular respiration.
 

https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/819987-overview#a5

Textbook on how CO2 Fire Extinguishers work so well.  

[Marauder]

 

Since he was originally planning on the RNAV-A, I wonder if he treated the RNAV 14’s DA as an MDA. Could explain the sudden altitude movement.


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[kortopates]

Since he was originally planning on the RNAV-A, I wonder if he treated the RNAV 14’s DA as an MDA. Could explain the sudden altitude movement.


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Or selecting full flaps early could also explain the sudden drop in altitude.


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[Ibra]

11 hours ago, rbp said:

were you getting vectors-to-final?  on some garmin models on older software, enabling VTF would delete all approach waypoints except the FAF 

That is a good point, it also removes IAF ROUAN from the flight plan and it's not in VTF straight line, so you can't just "eyeball it" when ATC ask you to go direct there, you have to intercept earlier and fly IF or FAF

If you intercept tight or 2nm near FAF on VTF GPS approach is toasted: you don't get get glideslope and missed get removed, all you are flying is FAF-RWY leg with "approach not active" flashing 

As always, getting shortcuts in unfamiliar places and bad conditions give a headache while there is zero room for error or catch a falling knife, it does not hurt to take sometime to setup things...

Edited December 1, 2022 by Ibra

[midlifeflyer]

9 hours ago, toto said:

When I read this, an ancient 1L synapse fired that said “Palsgraf”

 

 Kinsman is kind of relevant to our discussion because it was a case about shipping negligence that took out a bridge which, in turn, damned the Buffalo River causing flooding and all sorts of related havoc. But the cases always stuck in my mind (it's almost 50 years since I was 1L) because I found it funny (yes, I'm weird).  There were two of them. Same defendants, different plaintiffs. Both dealt with proximate cause for different types if claims. In Kinsman I, the court said there was legal causation but warned that at some point, the link would be too tenuous. In Kinsman II, the court said, remember what we said in Kinsman I? Well...

[bradp]

I’m having some difficulty but looking at this 

again, it appeared as though the pilot is diving and driving on an LPV mins approach. 

[M20F]

17 hours ago, rbp said:

were you getting vectors-to-final?  on some garmin models on older software, enabling VTF would delete all approach waypoints except the FAF 

Your question is for @Ibra