Traffic Pattern Conflict With Warrior

[jaylw314]

3 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

There's several weird things in that picture.  And this isn't even all of them: he is pushing by the spinner and the cowl one hand on each.  Both places you don't want to push.  But he doesn't seem to be leaning into it enough to actually be moving the plane.  I am not sure I have ever seen someone sitting in the plane - the pilot - while expecting someone else to be doing the pushing. The person looks older and less strong than I would guess I would expect to see someone pushing an airplane by themselves, without needing to lean into it and especially with the extra weight of an extra person in the plane, who need not bother to help.  There are other weird things, but we leave it at that.

I suppose it's possible they had heard a weird noise from the front and he is checking for something loose?  Might explain their ignoring the radio if so?

No, never mind, @201er said they had gone on to do a number of circuits

[aviatoreb]

10 minutes ago, jaylw314 said:

I suppose it's possible they had heard a weird noise from the front and he is checking for something loose?  Might explain their ignoring the radio if so?

No, never mind, @201er said they had gone on to do a number of circuits

And stopped blocking the taxi way.  Several weird things.  Maybe there is a simple common thread.

[Bartman]

As usual I am late to the discussion. It sucks to work all the damn time but that’s another story.  
 

Anyway, I read the first page and got the drift of what happened. Good communication is something I try to do and I appreciate it when others do, but it doesn’t always happen that way. One thing I can say is someone training in a Warrior may not understand the capabilities of the M20J. Since in calm air I may be descending at 170 Kts and beginning the announcement 10 Miles out may sound reasonable to me, it may not register to those who have the knowledge base obtained in a trainer aircraft. That’s basically one trip around the pattern for the trainer aircraft and may create an embarrassing situation for a new pilot. What was incoming traffic “way out there” is now they suddenly pattern traffic right beside me. 
 

Also, my CFI demanded tight patterns, much tighter than what I do today. It might be a factor. 
 

Just sayin…

[ilovecornfields]

Not sure a control tower solves this problem entirely. Went into Livermore (LVK) and tower turned a Skycatcher right into me as I was on the ILS 25R. I was tracking the glide slope and had to stop my descent so I wouldn’t smash into him. Fortunately my son saw him and I was able to avoid a collision. Tower asked that guy “Did you see that Mooney?!” to which he replied “I have him on my scope.”

I guess even with a control tower if you’re not looking out the window bad things can happen.

[Guest]

Something about “A superior pilot uses his superior judgment to avoid using his superior skills” comes to mind.

Clarence

[MikeOH]

3 hours ago, 201er said:

Where exactly do you fault me? I listened, I saw, I avoided, I communicated, I yielded… is it so wrong to be irritated at having to burden the entire responsibility to execute all of these on behalf of both parties?

Well, since you asked...

While I occasionally make extended downwind entries I do so with full knowledge that I'm the one 'barging into' the pattern; not part of it.  Consequently, I put the burden on myself to see and avoid, and get the hell out of the other guy's way since I'm the intruder.  If the situation looks at all busy I'll swing wide and enter on a 45.

IMHO, at non-towered fields I don't expect radio calls from others but am happy to have them, but don't consider them 100% accurate, either!  I don't get irritated either way; it's see and avoid and anything more is a bonus.  But, that's just me

[carusoam]

Traffic patterns are known for their ability to overload a person’s cognitive skills….

A subtle sign of cog overload… is the inability to get position reports out on time, and in the expected places…

This happens to students often…

It probably happens to Rusty pilots as well…

 

Once the ‘rusty’ pilot falls behind the plane… I bet 50% of the radio communications, either in or out, are fuzzy…

and their ability to track their own plane in the pattern is barely good… never mind tracking three other planes nicely spread out, all announcing Cessna Nxxxx…

 

PP thoughts only, not a cognitive therapist…

Best regards,

-a-

[FloridaMan]

On 11/1/2021 at 1:47 PM, jaylw314 said:

Yes, I was thinking to myself the poor guy could have just been having radio problems until the end, then I joined in on the facepalm.

In fairness, I accidentally cut off a helicopter on an instrument approach last month to a non-towered airport because they seem to not use their tail numbers around here.  "Guard copter" called leaving the area and said he was coming back around for the practice approach, and I missed the second helicopter coming in using the "helicopter" name without tail number.

I was asked to call the tower at a local airport because I caused an airliner to go several miles out of his way while I flew under the bravo at just under 200kts without talking to anyone. I didn’t violate any regs, but they informed me of the inconvenience and I apologized. Even if legal, I don’t want to piss off anyone lest I do something wrong and then find the book thrown at me. 

[GeeBee]

If you did not do anything wrong, there is no book to throw

[Ragsf15e]

21 minutes ago, FloridaMan said:

I was asked to call the tower at a local airport because I caused an airliner to go several miles out of his way while I flew under the bravo at just under 200kts without talking to anyone. I didn’t violate any regs, but they informed me of the inconvenience and I apologized. Even if legal, I don’t want to piss off anyone lest I do something wrong and then find the book thrown at me. 

You have just as much right to not go out of your way as they do.  If you were legally transitioning I would actually be kinda miffed at the tower people for calling you out.  

[RLCarter]

I fly out of a non-towered field, this happened just over a year ago….. I make my calls starting 10 miles out, I also have everyone in the plane looking for aircraft right after my initial call. We have Piper Cubs to Citations that fly regularly….. keep your eyes looking outside. Look close at the photo, there are 2 Cubs in the photo, I saw the surveillance video, they hit twice in the air, after the 2nd midair one rolled over and hit the ground, the other Cub followed and hit on top of the other…..3 times they collided and both walked away, back injuries for both one requiring surgery. Keep your head on a swivel and live to fly another day

[201er]

7 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

But what possessed you to stalk down what you consider be to the "offending plane", to take a purported picture of the older hard working CFI and student/pilot, to post it here on MS, to belittle him/them as "clueless" and unsafe and them try to shame him about something so petty as putting his hand on the spinner?

Yes… I stalked the Warrior by having him park across the taxiway back to my tiedown.

[Marauder]

I took care of all these problems with a mod. Works great. It’s amazing how the pattern clears out now when they hear me announce on CTAF.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[midlifeflyer]

On 11/6/2021 at 12:32 PM, 1980Mooney said:

There are always two sides to any story. And there are usually multiple actions/events that contribute to airport pattern flow, interruptions and close-calls,

Point taken. I really haven't followed this thread (I got curious when I saw how long it was) and try to avoid forming opinions on events like this based on only part of a story, but when I saw the title, I was tempted to go to a Piper forum and see if there was one called, "Traffic Pattern Conflict with Mooney." 

Edited November 8, 2021 by midlifeflyer

[steingar]

On 11/3/2021 at 3:35 PM, Shadrach said:

Performing T&Gs is pilot dependent not airframe dependent.

While true, I'm not doing repeated T&Gs in a retractable gear aircraft of any stripe.  Too easy to think you lowered the gear but didn't, as many have discovered to their dismay.  Moreover, if I'm doing the sort of flying where I'm aiming for currency, I prefer to do all the stuff I need to for landing, such as close the cowl flaps for cruise and open them again for landing, leaning, managing descent and other stuff.  Harder to do with repeated landing cycles.  I fly a Mooney, so it really doesn't take very long to get somewhere else to do a landing, which may well be a T&G.  Good to shake it up now and again.

 

[Shadrach]

On 11/8/2021 at 12:39 PM, steingar said:

While true, I'm not doing repeated T&Gs in a retractable gear aircraft of any stripe.  Too easy to think you lowered the gear but didn't, as many have discovered to their dismay.  Moreover, if I'm doing the sort of flying where I'm aiming for currency, I prefer to do all the stuff I need to for landing, such as close the cowl flaps for cruise and open them again for landing, leaning, managing descent and other stuff.  Harder to do with repeated landing cycles.  I fly a Mooney, so it really doesn't take very long to get somewhere else to do a landing, which may well be a T&G.  Good to shake it up now and again.

 

I take no issue with any of the above. It’s a well thought out position. It sort of reinforces my earlier point though. It’s pilot dependent, not airframe dependent. That’s not a dig on those that don’t.  People have good reasons for such a position.  I have never suggested that anyone should do T&Gs, only that they can be done safely. I think the “No T&G crowd” has stronger opinions about those of us that “do” than the “T&G crowd” has about those of us that don’t.

Edited November 10, 2021 by Shadrach

[jaylw314]

24 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I take no issue with any of the above. It’s a well thought out position. It sort of reinforces my earlier point though. It’s pilot dependent, not airframe dependent. That’s not a dig on those that don’t.  People have good reasons for such a position.  I have never suggested that anyone should do T&Gs only that they can be done safely. I think the “No T&G crowd” has stronger opinions about those of us that “do” than the “T&G crowd” has about those of us that don’t.

No, I do T&G's and I still have very strong opinions about others 

[RLCarter]

Personally I do stop n goes and generally depart the pattern and re enter in the Mooney, 172 is a different story….. a few months back I was doing a night CrossCountry and was at 3000 just east of Kingsville NAS, 3 King Airs in the pattern at NAS doing Touch-N-Goes…. Pretty cool to watch as we flew over

[Shadrach]

9 hours ago, RLCarter said:

Personally I do stop n goes and generally depart the pattern and re enter in the Mooney, 172 is a different story….. a few months back I was doing a night CrossCountry and was at 3000 just east of Kingsville NAS, 3 King Airs in the pattern at NAS doing Touch-N-Goes…. Pretty cool to watch as we flew over

At my home drome it’s common to see visiting C-130s and C-17s doing T&Gs. 

[Guest]

15 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

At my home drome it’s common to see visiting C-130s and C-17s doing T&Gs. 

Obviously those airforce pilots should visit and read these pages to learn the dangers performing T&G’s

Clarence

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Obviously those airforce pilots should visit and read these pages to learn the dangers performing T&G’s

Clarence

I tried yelling and shaking my fist but I don’t think they noticed me over the turbine noise...

[Guest]

Awesome analysis @1980Mooney

Clarence

[Pete M]

Boy, this threads been going on for awhile. I've been teaching in the airspace over NJ for the last two years out of Princeton. I've also taught in FL and CO. I fly 7 days a week, 4 to 6 hours a day. I've been flying for 20 years with 3000 hours in light airplanes and about 7000 landings, which gives you some idea of how much time I spend in traffic patterns. The op's perspective concerns me because it is completely misguided and I run into it all too frequently. I would refer anyone who's interested in the following FAA AC: AC 90-66B -Non-Towered Airport Flight Operations (faa.gov)

When the Warrior called take off the op should have known that his plan to enter the pattern was increasingly unlikely to work out and he should have adjusted his plan with a right turn to enter on the 45 after a 360 for spacing or whatever manuever within reason to provide the needed seperation. 

I grew up here. I've also lived and flown all over the country. We're diffferent here:) No doubt:) Do not carry the NJ/NY way of driving a car into the air with you. At worst it will get you killed, in the least it will just piss off everyone around you. I get it. Sometimes it's hard. If you make a mistake, if you get too close to someone while entering the pattern, it's your fault. Period. I don't care what the other guy did or didnt do. Unless he reversed direction on down wind and came straight at you, it's your fault. Apologize, say you're sorry, and then, respectfully, STFU. No amount of rationalization will you make in the right.  

Do not expect a cfi to stop teaching to coordinate your entry into the traffic pattern. If you can't figure out how to do it without radio communication you shouldn't be flying without obtaining more training. You must have the ability to form a picture in your mind of where the other airplanes are going to be when you get there and be aware there may be some not talking on the radio at all. Ever been to Vansant, just over the river in PA? You should be listening to the radio from at least 10 min out. If you're doing 180kt's that's 30 miles for those of us who are math challenged:) Do not expect anyone to respond to an "any traffic please advise" call when you're 3 nm from the airport. Seriously, don't do it. It makes you sound completely incompetent and I promise you, everyone will look for your arrival, but no one will respond. 

When you make your initial call, distance, direction, and altitude. That's it. We don't need a long winded diatribe on your future plans. The radio here on a nice day is super congested. 

It's an unctrolled field. Enter any way you like. That's half the fun of it. I like high speed overhead breaks:) But keep certain things in mind. Don't desend on to the downwind. Be at tpa before entry to dw. You can't see down and they can't see up. If you do the tear drop thing, be aware, it can be a very congested area with lots of aircraft desending in the same space. When you cross the field be 1000ft above. Aim says 500ft min but from time to time it may not be enough for various reasons we are all aware of. I was almost hit in the right rear the other day by a very large commuter heli headed into NY that was transiting too low. It was very close, 25ft maybe. 

Expect another pilot to be doing the dumbest thing you can possibly think of. I can't tell you how many times I've come nose to nose with someone going opposite direction on downwind even though they knew what direction we were landing in. People get disoriented all of the time. The biggest thing are pilots entering opposite the cross wind leg. They're usually trying to enter on the 45 but they miss mid field and enter going the wrong direction on the crosswind. Aircraft on dw ahead of you are extremely hard to see. They can literally disappear if there is any haze or on a grey day. Don't enter dw doing 160kts. You're asking for trouble. I had a bonanza pilot screaming at me over the radio one day because he almost ran into the back of me while entering dw. Said I wasn't making frequent enough radio calls. I made all the leg calls, but apparently they weren't enough for him. Thats how far people take this radio non-sense. Don't be that guy. 

I realize most of us who've been flying for awhile know these things well but given how often I see these errors in "experienced" pilots I figured they may be worth repeating here. If you've never read the AC, it's a good read. 

Good luck, be safe, and don't stalk or take pictures of the CFI's. It weirds us out:)

Pete

[201er]

1 hour ago, Pete M said:

I would refer anyone who's interested in the following FAA AC: AC 90-66B -Non-Towered Airport Flight Operations (faa.gov)

Thanks for the reminder. Sounds like everything was handled by the book then.

[Guest]

If you fly to other countries, procedures are different.  In Canada, straight entries to the down wind leg(no 45 entries) or from the upwind side overhead the field for a mid down wing entry.

Clarence