Trying to fill portable O2 losing my mind

[Yetti]

Take the barney reflectors off the bike.

[Marauder]

Take the barney reflectors off the bike.

They how else will they find my body at the bottom of the ravine I drove off? My shiny bald head?


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[Marauder]

[mention=9886]Marauder[/mention]  Thank you sir

 

You’re welcome. Just look closely at the adapters. You’ll want a CGA 540 if you’re filling a standard portable aviation bottle. Other adapters may be required if you’re using it to fill an onboard tank or if you picked up a portable medical bottle (that will require the CGA 870 adapter).

 

 

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[Oldguy]

4 hours ago, Yetti said:

I think your supplier is ripping you off.  I had two of the medium bottles welding cylinders exchanged for 45 bucks and both of them were out of date.    Apparently dad had a big bottle so I am good for life at this point.  And it is only a 20 minute round trip at this point.     And you want to fill the bottles slowly.   Technically they should be placed in a large steel pipe.  Just in case. 

When I was filling SCUBA tanks at my dive shop, we placed them in a drum of water covering up to the shoulder of the bottle being filled. The water fulfilled two purposes: 

1. It helped keep the temperature of the bottle being filled lower as the tank will heat up as the increase in pressure generates heat. This also tends to make the filled bottle closer to the filled pressure when taken out of the water. Otherwise, the cooling of the bottle will drop the pressure and your final pressure will not be as high as you thought it was.
2. Should a bottle ever rupture, the water will absorb much of the force. It will still make a mess, but you will probably come away with all of your original parts.

And thinking about this, do our oxygen tanks have rupture discs the same as SCUBA tanks? Tank valves for diving have calibrated copper discs which will rupture when the internal pressure exceeds a certain percentage of the maximum allowed pressure in the cylinder. These were built into the valve to avoid a tank explosion solely from a tank being over pressurized.

[neilpilot]

4 hours ago, bradp said:

That’s the waterfall system like I used to fill D tanks on the ambulance.

Actually it's a cascade system.  Often someone who doesn't know what their doing will operate this incorrectly, either equalize the cylinders or starting a fill from the highest pressure cylinder.  Sort of defeats the purpose.

[bradp]

That’s right Neil.  Cascade not waterfall.  .  

[Hank]

1 hour ago, bradp said:

That’s right Neil.  Cascade not waterfall.  .  

Don't many waterfalls cascade?

[M20F-1968]

On 7/2/2020 at 12:40 PM, Marauder said:

 

Time to build your own...

I would always answer the “is it for medical use?” with a no answer. The last time before I built my transfill system, they tore off all of the Aerox labels and put their labels on. I suspect to make it look like a baby welding bottle.


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I purchased four 300 cubic foot bottles for  $100.00 each. (I bought 4 because shipping was exactly the same for 1 or 4).  The lines, valves, gauges, etc... were bought online from a welding supplier (1/2 the cost of an aviation oxygen supplier) and the Scott adapter from an aviation supplier.  $20 fills a bottle.  I have enough in 4 transfill bottles for a long time.

John Breda

[Richard Bronson]

I have two bottles of welding Oxygen that I used before selling my Mooney. I have an adapter that lets me fill the portable O2 from the welding bottles.  Did it for 20+ years, never a problem.

[TTaylor]

Get a bottle with the correct valve and regulator,  you need a CGA540 valve. Cost is a little over $100 for the bottle.  Now you can go get Welders Oxygen for a few bucks a refill.  NEVER tell them it is for aviation. With the CGA 540 you can also go to a FBO, but they are usually a ripoff.  Most FBO's have a fixed price for refills, like filling a Prius tank and a Suburban for the same price.

https://lifemedicalsupplier.com/product/jumbo-d-oxygen-cylinder-with-cga-540-valve/

[N201MKTurbo]

This is the tank valve you want:

https://www.sherwoodvalve.com/sites/default/files/yvba-vertical-outlet-oxygen-valve-datasheet.pdf

 

[Ross Taylor]

So, after smugly sharing that my local medical supply place will (would...) exchange cylinders for pilots, they're getting out of the medical equipment business and will just sell uniforms and such.  So, I just bought a transfill setup and swapped one of my no-longer-needed helium tanks for oxygen.  More than anything, I was curious about the fill/exchange price.  It was $31.24 for a 230 cubic foot tank.  I've got quite a few tanks from my metal biz, so I'll use those to set up a proper cascade system.

On a related note, they're selling off all their medical oxygen cylinders for $10 each.    I'm going to visit them later today to get a few.  I don't really want to hassle with shipping these, even empty, but if anyone thinks they'll be passing through Flagstaff or Williams in the next few months (no hurry!) I'm happy to pick up extra cylinders for you.  If I've got my fill setup ready by the time you visit, I can fill them too.

[EricJ]

1 minute ago, Ross Taylor said:

So, after smugly sharing that my local medical supply place will (would...) exchange cylinders for pilots, they're getting out of the medical equipment business and will just sell uniforms and such.  So, I just bought a transfill setup and swapped one of my no-longer-needed helium tanks for oxygen.  More than anything, I was curious about the fill/exchange price.  It was $31.24 for a 230 cubic foot tank.  I've got quite a few tanks from my metal biz, so I'll use those to set up a proper cascade system.

On a related note, they're selling off all their medical oxygen cylinders for $10 each.    I'm going to visit them later today to get a few.  I don't really want to hassle with shipping these, even empty, but if anyone thinks they'll be passing through Flagstaff or Williams in the next few months (no hurry!) I'm happy to pick up extra cylinders for you.  If I've got my fill setup ready by the time you visit, I can fill them too.

I'm in!  I'm guessing they'd have the medical fittings rather than a CGA 540?    The fittings aren't that expensive, though, so if they have some D size tanks or similar I'd take a few!   Let me know and I'll order regulators and pop up there.

[Ross Taylor]

4 hours ago, EricJ said:

I'm in!  I'm guessing they'd have the medical fittings rather than a CGA 540?    The fittings aren't that expensive, though, so if they have some D size tanks or similar I'd take a few!   Let me know and I'll order regulators and pop up there.

Yes, they have the 870 medical valves.  I'll grab some extras for you. 

As far as regulators go, this is the best deal I found.  I wanted a second regulator and found these - this is a quality regulator and the seller has a bunch...it seems like he/she bought out a vendor or something.  At the price, I got 2 and they're very nice...especially for $22.50 each.  These particular regulators are the 0-15 L/min version

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Precision-Medical-Oxygen-Regulator-Hi-Flo-168715D/153933666020?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

EDIT - I just picked up 9 cylinders at my local place.  I got some Ds, for myself and EricJ, a couple of shorter C (M9), and one tiny B (M6) as an extremely portable back-up.  All were $10 each.  They must have 100 left, so if anyone else needs me to pick up a few just let me know.

[carusoam]

Nice work, Ross!

Best regards,

-a-

[MooneyDreamer]

That's awesome! Good on you for offering this to everyone. I'm new to the realm of portable oxygen and this looks like a great opportunity to get started at a super low cost.

Brandon

[Cody Stallings]

On 7/8/2020 at 5:45 AM, Yetti said:

I think your supplier is ripping you off.  I had two of the medium bottles welding cylinders exchanged for 45 bucks and both of them were out of date.    Apparently dad had a big bottle so I am good for life at this point.  And it is only a 20 minute round trip at this point.     And you want to fill the bottles slowly.   Technically they should be placed in a large steel pipe.  Just in case. 

He’s getting Hosed. I have two of the 277cf Cylinders.

Costs me $17 each to exchange them

Edited August 20, 2020 by Cody Stallings

[Yetti]

6 hours ago, Cody Stallings said:

He’s getting Hosed. I have two of the 277cf Cylinders.

 

ha ha I see what you did there.

[Seth]

On 7/6/2020 at 10:40 AM, The Other Red Baron said:

Finally found a place that will do it for $40.  Not a "deal" but I doubt I'll get it filled often enough to care too much.  If I do find myself using it a lot I'm definitely just making my own transfill setup as suggested. 

That’s a typical flat rate amount. It’s not about the O2 cubic volume, it’s about a flat time it takes to hook up the tanks, watch, make sure everything is safe, etc. FBO’s/A&P’s/Aviation shops Here on the east coast around major cities charge $50-$90 flat rate for portable bottles.

Depending on your brand, at Oshkosh many fill up for free.

I have not yet found a dive shop that will fill around me. I do have a dive shop near FDK that will do the hydro test.

-Seth

 

[jlunseth]

On 7/3/2020 at 4:03 PM, squeaky.stow said:

I hope nobody is actually doing this. Scuba tanks are not filled with Oxygen. They are filled with plain old compressed air, which is about 21% oxygen. If you put on a mask at altitude from a tank filled with compressed air, you will get exactly the same air coming out of the mask as the air in the cabin. At the same pressure. 
The reason we breath pure 02 in a non pressurized airplane is that there is not enough atmospheric pressure up there to force 21% 02 into our bloodstream so we make up for that by increasing the concentration to 100%. This only works up to about 30,000’. After that we need pressure breathing. 
Conversely, if you breath 100% O2 while scuba diving, you will die.

No, technical diving involves gas mixes with higher than the O2 percentages in normal air. Up to and including 100% O2. You need to get a certification for 32-36% mixes, called Nitrox, and a different one for up to 100%. Not every scuba shop will carry 100% O2, but the one’s that teach and do technical diving will have it. They use it to create the “enhanced percentage” gases as well as to fill bottles with 100%. 

High O2 percentages at depth where you are breathing compressed gases can lead to O2 toxicity, convulsions, and death, yes. But there is a concentration component and a duration component. It is safe if you know the parameters.  One relatively common use of pure O2 is in the final safety stop from a technical dive where decompression safety stops are used, usually at 15 feet, although a lot of divers choose 40% for that purpose.  Another is to fill O2 tanks for use in administering emergency first aid on the dive boat if a diver has Decompression Sickness.  A third is that rebreathers use a tank filled with pure O2 and have a computerized system to inject O2 into the “cleansed” gas - gas that gets the CO2 removed in the rebreather - so that the O2 level comes back up to the desired level.

So they have it, it can cause problems if you don’t know what you are doing, but it is fairly common. Needs to be a tech diving shop though and they will want your certification for the O2 level you are asking for. Also, connections are different from one tank type, say a medical tank, to another, say a scuba tank with a standard J valve, so you have to check that. Helps if you have a standing relationship with a shop, they know you, and once they see your card they won’t ask again every time.

Why not just go to an FBO that provides “O2 service.” If you taxi up in your aircraft and have them fill the tank on the tarmac I don;t think they will blink. Fittings will be an issue. Most of them charge around $80 regardless of how much O2 you put on board. 

Edited September 7, 2020 by jlunseth

[jlunseth]

PS you are not going to get into trouble breathing pure O2 in a nonpressurized aircraft. For one thing, if you are using the standard free flow system with a cannula or even a mask you are not breathing pure O2. But more importantly, the toxicity level is 1.6 ATM (atmospheres) of partial pressure. Divers commonly use 1.2-1.4 ATM to provide a safety buffer, and you have to be careful if you are at these higher levels for long periods (hours). However, the partial pressure of O2 at sea level is .21 (rounded off), and the partial pressure of pure O2 at sea level is only 1.0 ATM. If you go up higher, say to 18k, the partial pressure of pure O2 would only be .5 ATM. So even if you were breathing pure O2 it would be safe. Breathing the supplemented O2 levels we breath in our aircraft is just not an issue, or to put it another way, you want to make sure you get enough.

[McMooney]

Woot, just found a welding supply shop close to me that not only has "Industrial" oxygen but also "Medical" And "Aviation", cost me 15$ to refill

 

[squeaky.stow]

4 hours ago, jlunseth said:

No, technical diving involves gas mixes with higher than the O2 percentages in normal air. Up to and including 100% O2. You need to get a certification for 32-36% mixes, called Nitrox, and a different one for up to 100%. Not every scuba shop will carry 100% O2, but the one’s that teach and do technical diving will have it. They use it to create the “enhanced percentage” gases as well as to fill bottles with 100%. 

High O2 percentages at depth where you are breathing compressed gases can lead to O2 toxicity, convulsions, and death, yes. But there is a concentration component and a duration component. It is safe if you know the parameters.  One relatively common use of pure O2 is in the final safety stop from a technical dive where compression safety stops are used, usually at 15 feet, although a lot of divers choose 40% for that purpose.  Another is to fill O2 tanks for use in administering emergency first aid on the dive boat if a diver has Decompression Sickness.  A third is that rebreathers use a tank filled with pure O2 and have a computerized system to inject O2 into the “cleansed” gas - gas that gets the CO2 removed in the rebreather - so that the O2 level comes back up to the desired level.

So they have it, it can cause problems if you don’t know what you are doing, but it is fairly common. Needs to be a tech diving shop though and they will want your certification for the O2 level you are asking for. Also, connections are different from one tank type, say a medical tank, to another, say a scuba tank with a standard J valve, so you have to check that. Helps if you have a standing relationship with a shop, they know you, and once they see your card they won’t ask again every time.

Why not just go to an FBO that provides “O2 service.” If you taxi up in your aircraft and have them fill the tank on the tarmac I don;t think they will blink. Fittings will be an issue. Most of them charge around $80 regardless of how much O2 you put on board. 

I guess it is time I deleted that post. Or maybe I should leave it to remind me of the dangers of blathering about a topic which I don’t know that much about. I have learned a great deal about scuba diving on Mooneyspace in the past couple of months! 

 

[jlunseth]

Oh, no, not at all. I do the same thing sometimes, everyone does. That is the great thing about this forum, we all talk and sooner or later get to the right answer. You were right that pure O2 has a toxicity level. Most people never get that far.

[JoeM]

On 7/17/2020 at 9:52 AM, Ross Taylor said:

So, after smugly sharing that my local medical supply place will (would...) exchange cylinders for pilots, they're getting out of the medical equipment business and will just sell uniforms and such.  So, I just bought a transfill setup and swapped one of my no-longer-needed helium tanks for oxygen.  More than anything, I was curious about the fill/exchange price.  It was $31.24 for a 230 cubic foot tank.  I've got quite a few tanks from my metal biz, so I'll use those to set up a proper cascade system.

On a related note, they're selling off all their medical oxygen cylinders for $10 each.    I'm going to visit them later today to get a few.  I don't really want to hassle with shipping these, even empty, but if anyone thinks they'll be passing through Flagstaff or Williams in the next few months (no hurry!) I'm happy to pick up extra cylinders for you.  If I've got my fill setup ready by the time you visit, I can fill them too.

Thanks for offering to buy these, Ross. I would like one of the largest size they have. Will be in Flag later this fall.