RUMOR: Mooney Purchased

[RobertGary1]

In my experience far more young student pilots today are career oriented. Likely because that's how they'll pay off the debt. 

 

-Robert

[Huitt3106]

In my experience far more young student pilots today are career oriented. Likely because that's how they'll pay off the debt. 

 

-Robert

That’s a very good point as well. When I was getting my license most people were surprised I was only doing it recreationally.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tim Jodice]

1 hour ago, Huitt3106 said:

I’d like to get in here a bit as a millennial pilot (32 years old) and with experience having been previously prescribed Ritalin for ADD and also having spent a lot of time playing video games. First off, having been prescribed Ritalin in the past and then failing my medical because of it was a ridiculous headache. I had to take a neuropsychological test to show that I had an acceptable attention span (by whatever antiquated standard the FAA uses). That was quite expensive and I had to drive to Washington DC to do it. The only reason I went that far was my drive to get my license. It eventually worked out but took months to get my approval after the $2000 test the took 5 hours.

I find any argument about video games removing “today’s kids” from reality to be kind of far fetched. I also spent a lot of time outdoors but socialized a lot playing video games online (really teaches you how vulgar all cultures are). I’m not saying some kids can’t get addicted or lose touch with reality, but the vast majority of kids are/ were like me. They were fun to play with our buddies. I may come off more adversarial here than I mean to but I’ve heard blame placed on video games throughout my life.

I think the biggest issue I see when it comes to new pilots/ potential pilots has already been stated a couple times. It’s really really expensive. The only reason I was initially able to get my license was due to a grandparent passing away and leaving me $10,000. I could have afforded to do it, I just was too cautious to jump into something that expensive. I think a lot of this mindset of our generation can be tied into coming of adult age in the middle of the Great Recession. It took me over a year after college to get an entry level position that payed what my part time job was paying at small restaurant. Since I got the initial boost of funding and absolutely fell in love with flying I have committed much more of my extra cash into aviation. I have read similar comparisons to those already mentioned in the affordability of aviation today verses the 60s, 70s, and maybe early 80s. People have a lot more resources today (distractions if you will) but normal social culture allows less disposable income.

Just my thoughts.


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I love this post and agree 100%.

I just turned 40 this year I have been flying for 14 years and airplane owner for 8. After renting for years and having so much fun flying I wanted my own airplane bad.

At 32 I sat down with a pen and paper and wrote down everything I spent money on. I realized that I was living a typical but in my opinion now wasteful lifestyle. In the coming months I stopped eating out all the time, having a new car and just buying crap I really didn't need.

A penny saved is a penny earned right? Eliminating all of the wasteful spending allowed me to buy my first airplane, a $38K 1955 Bonanza. 

 

Then and now I don't have any other hobbies or activities that I do so all of my disposable income is/was flying. Fortunately now I get to fly to work.

When I bought my first airplane I was an auto mechanic working for someone else making $55-60K. You don't need to make a lot of money IF it is important to you. 

I have told and shown people that owning an airplane is not out of reach.

Stop the daily 5 dollar coffee 20 dollar lunch and maybe skip a phone generation or two and drive a 10 year old car. It is amazing what it cost to live a normal social life today. iPhone 18 anyone?

For the price of a new F150. 

https://www.controller.com/listings/aircraft/for-sale/30079661/1963-mooney-m20c

Nice way to start flying!

[Hank]

43 minutes ago, Huitt3106 said:

That’s a very good point as well. When I was getting my license most people were surprised I was only doing it recreationally.

I just shocked a friend of a friend (like me, mid-50s or so) because I own an airplane just for recreation! So I know where you're coming from, and it's not just millenials . . . . .

[markgrue]

6 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

There is another elephant in the room as to why there may be fewer young (teens and twenties) and mid-young (30's and 40's) pilots coming into the pilot population and then the buyers markets.

Rather than blame the twenty-somethings... let's remember - 

Its EXPENSIVE!  Seems like it is much more expensive than it may have been in the 60s and 70s?  Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems as if either a person is independently wealthy, or this activity takes a larger fraction of a typical young professional's cash than it would have in the 70s era.  I mean compared to buying a house, having some kids, not on a brain surgeon's salary but maybe on a starter IT-department specialist, for example - is it do-able?  No matter how much desire, will there is not enough cash, then it becomes a choice for many - save up to buy a house or spend it on a hundred hours a year?

At first glance I would agree with you but consider this:  When I started to learn to fly a Cessna 150 cost $11 an hour.  Seems cheap?  well I made .95 an hour.  It took about 12 hours for me to pay for an hour of flight time plus about $5 an hour for instructor.  Now it costs about $120 an hour for the same Cessna 150.  I make a bit over $30 an hour.  4 hours for the same hour of flight time.  Not really as expensive.  Even at minimum wage it is roughly the same cost.

 

Mark

[gsxrpilot]

Just now, markgrue said:

At first glance I would agree with you but consider this:  When I started to learn to fly a Cessna 150 cost $11 an hour.  Seems cheap?  well I made .95 an hour.  It took about 12 hours for me to pay for an hour of flight time plus about $5 an hour for instructor.  Now it costs about $120 an hour for the same Cessna 150.  I make a bit over $30 an hour.  4 hours for the same hour of flight time.  Not really as expensive.  Even at minimum wage it is roughly the same cost.

But everything else, the cost of living, has outpaced wages to the point that very few have really any disposable income to allocate to something like flying. I've talked to many who would love to fly but have to pay off student loans worth more than my Mooney. The economics are very different today than back when I was in High School and College.

[rbridges]

4 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

You guys need to get out more often. The FBO's are overflowing with young student pilots. Examiners are booked out 3 months right now on the coasts.

-Robert 

Are they buying planes afterwards?  Serious question.  I know a few that got PPL and either went military or pretty much stopped flying 

[aviatoreb]

52 minutes ago, markgrue said:

At first glance I would agree with you but consider this:  When I started to learn to fly a Cessna 150 cost $11 an hour.  Seems cheap?  well I made .95 an hour.  It took about 12 hours for me to pay for an hour of flight time plus about $5 an hour for instructor.  Now it costs about $120 an hour for the same Cessna 150.  I make a bit over $30 an hour.  4 hours for the same hour of flight time.  Not really as expensive.  Even at minimum wage it is roughly the same cost.

 

Mark

I make more than when I was 18 too, like you do too.

but to your point how much is an hour of 150 time relative to min wage - that’s a good measure.  
 

I agree with gxsrpilot that other costs are rising faster than pay scales.  See this graph from the nytimes about 2 yrs ago.  https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/08/07/opinion/leonhardt-income-inequality.html

 

[MikeOH]

I learned to fly in 1977, in California. C-150 was $10.50/hr wet; instructor $5/hr; Call it $16/hr total.  California minimum wage was $2.65.  So, about 6 hours work = 1 hour flying.

Today, in California, that same C-150 (and, quite possible that it is the SAME plane!) is $100/hr, instructor is $60/hr; $160/hr total.  Minimum wage is now $12/hr. Thus, 13 hours work = 1 hour flying.  DOUBLE the work.

To me, that is a SIGNIFICANT difference.

Not to mention that, IMHO, it takes MORE hours today.  Whether that's due to more FAA regs before solo, or litigation concerns, or whatever.

[carusoam]

With the cost to fly what it was...

I went flying twice each month...

about half the skill rusted away before the next flight lesson...

Learned very quickly... if you want to Learn flying... With the least amount of wasted cash... it has to happen faster than your personal rust rate....

 

Taking my rust rate into consideration... I got good at using the flight sim to review what I was doing before the next flight lesson...

 

Training for the IR... flew every day for 10days or so... no time for rust... or sleep... or work... or anything else...   

Just Read and memorize... and fly.

 Best regards,

-a-

[larryb]

Flying is expensive, no doubt. But it is not significantly more expensive than many other upper middle class expenses in this country. When people ask me what it costs to fly I respond that to purchase a nice used airplane costs about the same as a new luxury car. The all-in cost to fly that plane for a year is in the same ballpark as a private school tuition for 1 child. Or 1 year college at a local school. These are expenses that millions of folks pay every single year. There is plenty of money out there, it is just a matter of priority. 

For me it is a lifestyle. The airplane allows us to do trips and adventures not practical in a car or airlines. And because I have an airplane, I don't need that expensive RV.

Larry

[RLCarter]

Like everything, prices have gone up, put to me its all proportionate. As a kid I could walk up and into the CAF hangars at Harlingen, today there is no way you could walk on a towered field. Most CFI/I's today are just building time to move up in their career, while they are passionate about flying, instructing  is just a stepping stone. A few years back I went up the a very low time (253hrs) and young CFII (20yrs old) and we spent an hour flying around talking about his career goals, luckily I wasn't getting charged for his time. A good friend of mine went against the odds as black female, she had over 80hrs and hadn't soloed, she handled the aircraft and radios just fine but was getting milked by the Flight School, after getting her to an instructor that wanted her to succeed she soloed with in a few flights, and is now a CFI/I SEL & MEL building hours flying aerial mapping. As Pilots WE have to get the youth and adults interested by exposing them to aviation as often as we can. At 59 I still go look out the hangar door when I hear someone talking off. Enough rambling, not sure why I still have most of my receipts from 40+years ago but I do
 

1979 Prices: $28.00 for the aircraft (Brand New Piper Tomahawk), $7.00 for the instructor
40hrs@$28.00 = $1120.00, 20hrs@$7.00 =$140-----$1260.00

2020 Prices: $115.00 (older Cessna 172) for the aircraft, $50.00 for the instructor
40hrs@$115.00 = $4600.00, 20hrs@$50.00 =$1000-----$4600.00

[RobertGary1]

2 hours ago, rbridges said:

Are they buying planes afterwards?  Serious question.  I know a few that got PPL and either went military or pretty much stopped flying 

Most are airline bound. There are a lot of commercial opportunities that past decades have not afforded. 
 

-Robert

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, larryb said:

Flying is expensive, no doubt. But it is not significantly more expensive than many other upper middle class expenses in this country. When people ask me what it costs to fly I respond that to purchase a nice used airplane costs about the same as a new luxury car. The all-in cost to fly that plane for a year is in the same ballpark as a private school tuition for 1 child. Or 1 year college at a local school. These are expenses that millions of folks pay every single year. There is plenty of money out there, it is just a matter of priority. 

For me it is a lifestyle. The airplane allows us to do trips and adventures not practical in a car or airlines. And because I have an airplane, I don't need that expensive RV.

Larry

My car is 17 years old - had it since new.  Only 100k on it now In part because I live 1 mi from work (ok 1.5) and when we drive a longer way either it’s in my wife’s car - which used to be a minivan w the kids - or if I’m solo I’m usually in my other vehicle / which is a Mooney!

[Davidv]

6 hours ago, RLCarter said:

Like everything, prices have gone up, put to me its all proportionate. As a kid I could walk up and into the CAF hangars at Harlingen, today there is no way you could walk on a towered field. Most CFI/I's today are just building time to move up in their career, while they are passionate about flying, instructing  is just a stepping stone. A few years back I went up the a very low time (253hrs) and young CFII (20yrs old) and we spent an hour flying around talking about his career goals, luckily I wasn't getting charged for his time. A good friend of mine went against the odds as black female, she had over 80hrs and hadn't soloed, she handled the aircraft and radios just fine but was getting milked by the Flight School, after getting her to an instructor that wanted her to succeed she soloed with in a few flights, and is now a CFI/I SEL & MEL building hours flying aerial mapping. As Pilots WE have to get the youth and adults interested by exposing them to aviation as often as we can. At 59 I still go look out the hangar door when I hear someone talking off. Enough rambling, not sure why I still have most of my receipts from 40+years ago but I do
 

1979 Prices: $28.00 for the aircraft (Brand New Piper Tomahawk), $7.00 for the instructor
40hrs@$28.00 = $1120.00, 20hrs@$7.00 =$140-----$1260.00

2020 Prices: $115.00 (older Cessna 172) for the aircraft, $50.00 for the instructor
40hrs@$115.00 = $4600.00, 20hrs@$50.00 =$1000-----$4600.00

When adjusted for inflation $1260 is roughly $4500 in today's dollars.  When we add in the changes in liability and regulation which aren't accounted for in the pure CPI calculation, the cost today is probably a little lower than in 1979.  This is partly offset by fuel prices lagging inflation which normalizes things. 

There's no doubt that the price of new aircraft has also outpaced inflation (The price of a 201 went from $59K in 1980 to $124K in 1984).  However, if we compare real values of the aircraft flown now and then they are also pretty similar.  The 172 that we pay around $115/hr for is probably worth $60-100K depending on the avionics.  The piper tomahawk new in 1979 was about $20K. 

None of this is exact and things are probably a little worse today for a variety of factors, but the differences are only marginal.  It feels like a lot of the differences in today vs. back then are either driven by personal preferences on spending disposable income OR compensation in certain professions lagging inflation.  There's no doubt that the salaries for many middle class jobs have not increased at near the rate of other jobs and wealth creation in this country.  I think that has a bigger effect than the price of aviation going up...

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Davidv said:

When adjusted for inflation $1260 is roughly $4500 in today's dollars. . .

There's no doubt that the salaries for many middle class jobs have not increased at near the rate of other jobs and wealth creation in this country. 

I thought this is what several others have already said, but you disagree with--the cost to fly has risen faster than income levels . . . .

A useful comparison that someone made was the hours of entry-level job work required to pay for an hour of plane rental with CFI. Comparing that against a mid-career salary is null, unless also comparing it to mid-career salary years ago. At least no one disagrees that airplane costs have risen at a multiple of the inflation rate.

[Cruiser]

52 minutes ago, Hank said:

snip................. At least no one disagrees that airplane costs have risen at a multiple of the inflation rate.

Legal system.

[mike_elliott]

At the Mooney Summit VIII this year, Bob Kromer will host a topic of "Mooney Direction" where each of your input will be received. Everyone has an opinion of what Mooney should do, and now will be their chance to voice it with a value proposition for Mooney and customer. We will make all attempts to get this in front of Mooney. On another note, millennial airplane owners are rare, but not extinct. I have personally trained 2 in the last year with new Ultras. They are exceptions for sure, as they realize their future is in their hands and no one else's'. They are not looking for the path of least resistance, but the path of best existance. 

[Yooper Rocketman]

I saw three pages on this topic and thought ....... hey, what news do we have about Mooney.  By the second and third page I was asking myself....... what's the topic again?

Tom

[Davidv]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

I thought this is what several others have already said, but you disagree with--the cost to fly has risen faster than income levels . . . .

A useful comparison that someone made was the hours of entry-level job work required to pay for an hour of plane rental with CFI. Comparing that against a mid-career salary is null, unless also comparing it to mid-career salary years ago. At least no one disagrees that airplane costs have risen at a multiple of the inflation rate.

That's right but given the cost of flying hasn't increased over the last 40 years significantly the issue of the entry level job wage growth is not related to just aviation.  There are many things that are relatively more expensive for the entry level worker now than there was 40 years ago.

[Nick Pilotte]

31 minutes ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

I saw three pages on this topic and thought ....... hey, what news do we have about Mooney.  By the second and third page I was asking myself....... what's the topic again?

Tom

Same here.  I am refraining from commenting further on the OT discussion here.  
 

I see Mooney as a boutique brand.  Honestly similar to Bentley when they were broken off from Rolls and bought by VW.  They were a brand that struggled to sell, had hand built products that looked nice but were sooooo expensive that sales were limited.  That is partly by choice and partly due to the manufacturing processes they used.  It took the design and manufacturing influence of a huge corporation to realize they needed a “stepping stone” vehicle platform like the Continental GT to revolutionize/demystify the brand.  Their flagship is still a low production model but their profits have increased due to manufacturing streamlining.  I still see Mooney’s buyer to be a large conglomerate that has money for a pet project that may eventually turn into a money maker with an entry level product. 
 

 

[aviatoreb]

4 hours ago, Davidv said:

When adjusted for inflation $1260 is roughly $4500 in today's dollars.  When we add in the changes in liability and regulation which aren't accounted for in the pure CPI calculation, the cost today is probably a little lower than in 1979.  This is partly offset by fuel prices lagging inflation which normalizes things. 

There's no doubt that the price of new aircraft has also outpaced inflation (The price of a 201 went from $59K in 1980 to $124K in 1984).  However, if we compare real values of the aircraft flown now and then they are also pretty similar.  The 172 that we pay around $115/hr for is probably worth $60-100K depending on the avionics.  The piper tomahawk new in 1979 was about $20K. 

None of this is exact and things are probably a little worse today for a variety of factors, but the differences are only marginal.  It feels like a lot of the differences in today vs. back then are either driven by personal preferences on spending disposable income OR compensation in certain professions lagging inflation.  There's no doubt that the salaries for many middle class jobs have not increased at near the rate of other jobs and wealth creation in this country.  I think that has a bigger effect than the price of aviation going up...

This is very interesting.

But apples - to - apples is it fair to price cost of training in 1979 in a brand new airplane vs today in a 40 year old airplane?  Did they have 40 year old airplanes available in 1979 for training, and if so surely it was cheaper to rent those per hour.  Certainly today, it is more expensive to rent an hour in a brand new airplane than a 40 year old airplane.

Just like it is cheaper to buy a 40 year old airplane than to buy a brand new airplane.

[Stephen]

On 3/1/2020 at 8:10 PM, Brian E. said:

I truly don't understand why in today's economy why demand is so low--where has the adventure gone? Experimental?  LSA?  Regardless--driving sucks!

Video games / virtualized experience ate the inclination of large swaths of the younger generations to get out and engage real-life adventure. Many more of them  would prefer to be an entertainment superstar (youtube/sports) than aspire to be the next Chuck Yeager, and almost none would even know who he is. 

[aviatoreb]

10 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Video games / virtualized experience ate the inclination of large swaths of the younger generations to get out and engage real-life adventure. Many more of them  would prefer to be an entertainment superstar (youtube/sports) than aspire to be the next Chuck Yeager, and almost none would even know who he is. 

Wasn't Chuck Yeager that guy who played for the Celtics?

Edited March 3, 2020 by aviatoreb

[Stephen]

Just now, aviatoreb said:

Wasn't Chuck Yeager that guy who played for the Celtics?

Yeah...I think so...