Was I wrong? Refused to taxi or park on grass at Sun n Fun

[carusoam]

We are going to need an invention... like a taxi light and GoPro camera mounted right on the nose gear... and an IR lens... and...

-a-

[xcrmckenna]

Beautiful machine but the pic does not tell much about prop clearance.

Other than he said it’s less than a hand spread in an earlier post. I would say an average mans hand is about 8-10 inches. At least that’s what I tell my better half.....


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[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, xcrmckenna said:

Other than he said it’s less than a hand spread in an earlier post. I would say an average mans hand is about 8-10 inches. At least that’s what I tell my better half.....


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He also said 4” less than his F which Would mean it has 12-14 inches of clearance (way out of spec). I was merely pointing out that if the image was posted to show ground clearance (which was my impression), it didn’t do that. 

[steingar]

Can't blame the OP even a little bit. Always gives me massive heebie jeebies taxiing on the grass at Osh.  If I felt that strongly I'd use the hard parking alternatives.  Isn't up to the volunteers who uses them, nor is it up to the volunteers which airplane is "heavy".  

One does have to go easy anthem though.  They are, after all, volunteers.

[Yooper Rocketman]

20 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

If you know you're going to an event like SnF or OSH, you have to know that parking is on the grass. It is a bit precious when other Rockets are parked on the grass, to think that yours can't. It's certainly within your right to not want to park on the grass. But then don't fly to an event where parking is on the grass. 

Mooney nose gear actually do better protecting their prop than some other types. Those pucks can only compress so much. So unless your nose wheel falls in a hole, or plows a trench deeper than the axel, there's no chance you'll touch the prop to the ground.

Paul,

Glad I didn't take that advice last year at Oshkosh, I wouldn't have been there and gotten my award.  I shut down on black top and we hand pushed my Lancair to the parking spot (as did every other Lancair in the show area).

I don't see any Rocket owners disagreeing with @FloridaMan .  Hum, must be a reason.  I had a prop strike on MY Rocket on blacktop.  Talked with Darwin at Rocket Engineering after that incident and was given many tips to avoid it again, and I've shared that info many time on this forum to new Rocket owners.  You've got over 100 pounds extra on the nose of the plane, with some of it extended out past the nose wheel.  It's a wonderfully fast airplane, and some of the newer Mooney models, with more engine HP and speed, were developed as a result of Mooney losing sales to Rocket Engineering upgrading existing air frames.  But taxiing this plane needs to be done very carefully.

Asking to be parked where he did was not his idea, it was one given to him by other attendees.  His second trip in he did with his "F" model.  Sure doesn't seem to me he was being ignorant.  And some of the comments being made by posters with no Rocket knowledge.....wow.

Maybe it's time for this ex-Mooney guy to move on.........

Tom

[Marauder]

Paul,
Glad I didn't take that advice last year at Oshkosh, I wouldn't have been there and gotten my award.  I shut down on black top and we hand pushed my Lancair to the parking spot (as did every other Lancair in the show area).
I don't see any Rocket owners disagreeing with [mention=8198]FloridaMan[/mention] .  Hum, must be a reason.  I had a prop strike on MY Rocket on blacktop.  Talked with Darwin at Rocket Engineering after that incident and was given many tips to avoid it again, and I've shared that info many time on this forum to new Rocket owners.  You've got over 100 pounds extra on the nose of the plane, with some of it extended out past the nose wheel.  It's a wonderfully fast airplane, and some of the newer Mooney models, with more engine HP and speed, were developed as a result of Mooney losing sales to Rocket Engineering upgrading existing air frames.  But taxiing this plane needs to be done very carefully.
Asking to be parked where he did was not his idea, it was one given to him by other attendees.  His second trip in he did with his "F" model.  Sure doesn't seem to me he was being ignorant.  And some of the comments being made by posters with no Rocket knowledge.....wow.
Maybe it's time for this ex-Mooney guy to move on.........
Tom

Well, my opinion is simple. Anyone who takes extra caution to avoid driving up insurance costs for the rest of us gets an A+ from me.

I saw the drainage ditch dip Bob hit at Minuteman Airport. If I didn’t know he dinged his prop on it, I would have taxied over it.


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[aviatoreb]

3 hours ago, Marauder said:

 

Well, my opinion is simple. Anyone who takes extra caution to avoid driving up insurance costs for the rest of us gets an A+ from me.

I saw the drainage ditch dip Bob hit at Minuteman Airport. If I didn’t know he dinged his prop on it, I would have taxied over it.


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About a dozen years ago, I had a prop strike in my then Diamond DA40, during exactly such a taxi at a pancake fly-in event.  Expensive pancakes, eh?  I was marshaled off the pavement at what turned out to be a rather not so smooth transition from pavement to grass with enough drop that it gave a big bounce, and zing.  Subtle enough that I wasn't 100% sure it touched, but I shut down and got out and looked at the prop which had a tiny ding at the tip.  Ugh!  Two months, tear down inspection, and I was on my way....

I am VERY sensitive to your caution.

BTW a major concern when I got my new prop for my rocket, my 4 blade, is that it is significantly shorter than that massive 3 blade that comes with the usual rocket, that McCauley that was designed for the Cessna 340/414.  Plus it is a lot lighter so a bit less stress on the front shock.

Edited April 8, 2019 by aviatoreb

[Jeff_S]

I flew down for the day on Thursday, specifically because I knew that Friday was going to be wet and I didn't want to taxi and park on wet grass.  I've been out in the "East 40" where they used to put the "GAP" (General Aircraft Parking) planes, and the ground there is loose sandy soil so even on a dry day the Ovation required a ton of throttle to get moving.  My point is, with this in mind, while I agree that the PIC has the ultimate responsibility for the safety of the airplane, I also think that some advance thinking and preparation could have spared everyone all the angst. Specifically at SnF, you can call the FBO and get slot, or as others have said, park at one of the outlying airports.  I wasn't aware of the "heavy" option but I do see how your typical volunteer lineman would look at a Mooney asking for "heavy" and scratch his head.

That said, the *new* GAP parking is so superior as to be unbelievable!  It is right next to show center, which requires a bit of a taxi on landing but then means you are just steps away from the exhibits, and the departure (which is almost ALWAYS on the 9's) was very quick.  And I found the turf there to be quite compact and the grass well mowed, so the throttle responsiveness was much better for getting going.  There was one slight hump we had to negotiate to transition from the grass to the taxiway, but I just took it slowly and there was never any risk of prop strike.  The only downside is that once the airshow starts, you can't get out to your plane since it's in the protected area, so if you have purchased any bulky items you have to figure out where to put them until you can leave.

[gsxrpilot]

4 hours ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

Asking to be parked where he did was not his idea, it was one given to him by other attendees.  His second trip in he did with his "F" model.  Sure doesn't seem to me he was being ignorant.  And some of the comments being made by posters with no Rocket knowledge.....wow.

Maybe it's time for this ex-Mooney guy to move on.........

Tom

The point is well taken. But please don't go anywhere. You've still got more Mooney knowledge than most of us.

[MIm20c]

I have absolutely zero problem with the choices made. I guess the part that took me back originally was extending the hand out the window and giving the volunteer a salute. I’m not sure what that means in this case...?

[FloridaMan]

6 hours ago, MIm20c said:

I have absolutely zero problem with the choices made. I guess the part that took me back originally was extending the hand out the window and giving the volunteer a salute. I’m not sure what that means in this case...?

Most people will not see an attitude from me. Lots of members here have known me personally for years and I think could vouch for that. You generally won't see me getting pissed off at someone working in a customer service job, even if I'm upset over circumstances. I usually overtip insolent bartenders if I like the establishment to try and win their support. And, in general, when it comes to dealing with others, I weigh as if I were directed as the jury in the basis of the appeal of Vaughan v. Menlove (Jan. 23, 1837): 

• "A verdict having been found for the Plaintiff, a rule nisi for a new trial was obtained, on the ground that the jury should have been directed to consider, not, whether the Defendant had been guilty of gross negligence with reference to the standard of ordinary prudence, a standard too uncertain to afford any criterion; but whether he had acted bona fide to the best of his judgment; if he had, he ought not to be responsible for the misfortune of not possessing the highest order of intelligence. The action under such circumstances, was of the first impression."

However, in such events where I'm in disagreement with someone who insists on me acting in a way that puts me or an innocent third party at significant risk when they carry none of it, and then doubles down, attempts to pull rank or lies in a manner that could potentially cause injury, that I will respond with contempt. I have an absolute disdain for those types; you'll find a good number of them as helicopter parents in schools, assistant coaches or marching instructors, youth pastors, on HOA boards, working low level security jobs, college town law enforcement officers, members of city councils or working as "small business association" leadership, union reps, and as marshals at Sun n Fun. 

[Guest]

On 4/7/2019 at 3:44 PM, FloridaMan said:

Is shut down in the feathered position normal?  If so how well does it start in feather?

Clarence

[FloridaMan]

12 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Is shut down in the feathered position normal?  If so how well does it start in feather?

Clarence

No. I check it every now and then just to make sure it works. It starts fine and comes out of feather pretty quickly. 

[Austin305Rocket]

Hate resurrecting a somewhat dead thread...but I'm probably one of the newer Rocket owners on the forum (I know one of my Partner's frequents here as well).

I'm considering flying our 305 Rocket to OSH this year and this topic has been on my mind for sure.  I like the "HEAVY" option and I'm also considering an "Mooney unable...low prop clearance need a taxiway..." if requested by ATC to divert off the runway and into the grass after landing.  At that point - just shut it down if I see anything that gives me pause (hopefully being able to taxi behind someone).  Perhaps even asking to slot into wherever I can close to an actual taxiway to minimize any issues getting out there if it happens to get a little soggy while we're there.

I don't want to the FBO option - didn't even know that was available as it's our intent to camp with the airplane so parking there and having to lug all of our stuff somewhere else would be a real pain.

[carusoam]

Start working on your...

Plan A:

Plan B:

Plan C:

 

If you haven’t been to KOSH before... bring somebody that has...

Read the Notam thoroughly...

Recognize the signs for communicating in the packet... are pretty limited...

The people you will try to communicate with are volunteers...  and may have never sat in a GA plane before...

Shouting out through the tiny window has its limitations...

Whenever departing a paved surface... proceed at a creeping pace...

Do not go into a puddle...  the bottom of the puddle may be marked ‘China’...  which is pretty much on the other end of the world....

If you don’t have a plan... one will be assigned to you...  and you may not know until it is too late...

To most volunteers, all Mooneys will look alike...

To most volunteers, all pilots will be asking for special treatment...

Following another plane has its limitation...   If you are trying to miss a pothole... surrounded by a lot of grass...    how good are you at following the yellow line? When there isn’t one...

 

 

what is the ground clearance of your prop? (Not prop diameter)
 

PP thoughts only, lots of care to be taken...

Best regards,

-a-

[Austin305Rocket]

About 8 inches of clearance from the tip to the ground...so not much...

[carusoam]

8” on a solid surface is enough to not have to worry about it...

Other Mooneys have about 10” of clearance...

We are all trying to avoid the same unknown, depth of all holes...

Where the six cylinder Mooneys have a small extra challenge...  the compression of the front donuts on the nose gear...

The transition from paved surface to unpaved... often has a two inch step.

If you follow in the same exact foot steps of everyone else... that step gets a bit worn, deeper...

 

 Proceed slowly and cautiously so you don’t build momentum, that compresses the front donuts even more...

There is a lot of environmental pressure to keep moving at a walking pace...  when what you need is a creeping pace...

Pressure builds between your ears, while you are balancing keeping moving, with not going too fast...  and it’s a long way to go...

Kind of a stressful way to go... to get to a place of great relaxation....  

 

If you are any good at geometry... you can figure out the exact depth of a hole that is safe to fall in...

Roughly, distance from mains to nose gear, and then prop...  Most Mooneys will have difficulty with a five inch hole... Missiles and Rockets will be sensitive to a four inch hole...

Things get more complex when coming off a 2” step...  the clearance narrows while the mains are up on the pavement, and the nose is on the gravel...

makes you want to walk one wheel off the ledge at a time... 

On dry days, the holes and ruts are mostly very visible... and pretty stable... with days of rain, the ground softens... heavy planes can leave a mess to follow...

Overall...  99% of all Mooneys will get through the rough patch unscathed...

Know your geometry... don’t accidentally become the 1%er....

A lot of math involved... statistics and geometry and percentages and chances...

Avoid the same things going back on the pavement...

It would be great to have a camera mounted on the nose gear...

Who knew flying was a game of inches...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Austin305Rocket]

Good info.  And yes, the transition from grass to pavement is what worries me the most.  You get the uneven edge and the bounce and not really a good way to judge what's going to happen there.

The tentative plan is to make it a day trip out there so we'll have a good idea by the time we leave what the weather is expected to do in 4-5 hours which is our flight time and obviously the existing ground conditions given any weather that's passed through.

 

 

[Ragsf15e]

If you see anything that even makes you think twice, shut down and drag it.  It’s OSH, you’ll instantly have about 10 people helping move it.  Even if you move it another 1/2 mile on grass it won’t be hard with airshow friends!  No shame, no worries.  Nobody will question you.  

[RJBrown]

Prop strikes are bitch in the Rocket.

I went to an air show at BJC in Denver. I trusted the ground crew to keep me safe. Not, they guided me into a hole I could not see.

Now the plane was stuck for weeks. My fault my insurance my problem. They were pissy to me because I was still in their way.

any trip off the hard surface in a Rocket, shut down then walk and the course. If you accept the risk go for it. If they don’t like it tough. There is a reason the STC requires 10ply rated nose wheel. 
 

the one time I took the Rocket to OSH I noticed grass stains on the prop. This was before my experience at BJC. I thought nothing of it. In retrospect I Probably had, by the legal definition anyway, a prop strike that day.

like Nancy said “just say no”

 

[N201MKTurbo]

Rocket 231JV had 3 prop strikes. Wasn’t me...

But apparently, if you get into a PIO porpoise, you can smack that prop on a paved runway.  

[exM20K]

So.... bringing this back to S&F.... how convenient and workable is plant city as an alternative landing spot?  Are there reasonably frequent shuttles as at OSH?  I’d like to attend next week for a day trip but disinterested in the grass experience.

-Dan

[Hector]

Good info.  And yes, the transition from grass to pavement is what worries me the most.  You get the uneven edge and the bounce and not really a good way to judge what's going to happen there.

The tentative plan is to make it a day trip out there so we'll have a good idea by the time we leave what the weather is expected to do in 4-5 hours which is our flight time and obviously the existing ground conditions given any weather that's passed through.

 

 

When I transition from pavement to grass or vice versa as OSH I never do so at 90 degrees or anywhere near that. I ease into it by getting one main on the grass (or pavement) and then slowly transitioning the other main (parallel entry). Yoke back as far as it will go and go SLOW. Remember rolling on grass is going to take a lot more more throttle (specially if wet) so the elevator will be more effective so keep the yoke on your chest the hole time you are taxing.

 

 

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[A64Pilot]

I’m late to this conversation, but years ago the Marshallers were kids and they do as they are told. There was parking in GAC much closer but they wouldn’t let me through in my Maule on 29” tires, which of course it could do easily, but we went with the flow and just got used to the walk.

‘If you look in this Pic, you’ll see a Mooney just behind me, I’m not sure which model you guys would likely know, but the Mooney guys showed up, looked at it and flew it I assume to Kerville for a new prop as it had a prop strike. I assume it was a new aircraft, didn’t talk to the owner. Maybe they are here?

‘But of course your the PIC and responsible for you aircraft, you did right. In crew coordination training we called it the most conservative response, sure you probably could have made it, but the costs of not making it grossly outweigh the benefits of making it.

to date the pic, my Son in the pic is 27 now

 

 

Edited April 10, 2021 by A64Pilot

[Seth]

You made the right call and it’s what I should have done. Pull the mixture. Stop the aircraft.

at Oshkosh 2019 I was marshaled into a muddy area. I asked three times (one pointing, once attempting to taxi by, and once talking/yelling) over the engine I was worried about taxing through that patch. They said it would be fine and I had a prop strike in the mud on my Missile.

EAA’s insurance paid the claim as I was marshalled into the bad area. But I still had numerous out of pocket expenses. They paid a ton in insurance.

Next time I’ll shut down like you did.

Good job.

 

-Seth