First Year Cost of Ownership

[base698]

Goals for this thread are two-fold:  Cautionary tale for perspective buyers and wondering out loud how bad luck we've had.

Picked up a 1986 M20J August 14th 2018 for $110K, 12 years and 1200 hours SMO.  A couple of notes, the below is for two pilots getting their IFR ticket and about 140 hours total flight time on the plane.

Maintenance Costs in first year: $45,000

AvGas: $8500

IFR Checkride/Prep (2 pilots) other flying related expenses (memberships etc): $7400

Total: ~$60,000 first year costs (not including the plane itself).

Maintenance:
$3800 Pre-buy/Annual at pickup
$1100 Seat started to fail to lock -- Seat frame was broken.
$6200 Backup attitude indicator (turn coordinator replacement) started to fail, replaced with a G5, which when the pitot-static was tested failed the VSI, requiring an overhaul of the VSI.
$250 Battery died, stranding me (long distance uber required to get to where I was going not included)
$7200 VOR started failing, couldn't track down the problem, sent 530W to Garmin to debug, not issue found, ended up needing to overhaul the HSI and VOR #2.  GDL88 had a failure where N number wasn't present in the FAA reports when filing IFR.  New tire (my fault).
$9000 Stuck oil ring due to overheating issue, likely when we bought it appeared to have spark plugs that were not for the engine.  #4 went offline in flight, EGT/CHTs were low, but quickly lost oil pressure.  Landed without issue, but plane was not flyable, got 4 new cylinders from Lycoming and had the plugs replaced.
$8000 Install of new cylinders, Annual: broken compass bracket requiring remount, brakes were stuck on 1 side and didn't work, 2 new tires.  Gas cap seal hadn't been replaced at last annual, but stated in log book as replaced, I state this only because I feel a lot of stuff was probably missed, or not looked at on a typical annual.
Other miscellaneous expenses not stated: Oil changes and minor issues

TL;DR: Planes are expensive or maybe we just have bad luck or we have been taken for a ride, check the spark plugs on the engine to make sure they match in the prebuy, if they don't assume they are using them to cover up a problem--good compressions won't mean you're in the clear for engine work.

 

[ShuRugal]

Reading posts like this makes me really appreciate how well taken care of my bird was when I got it last year.  I was just over at the previous owner's shop yesterday for some paperwork, and he had 3 other mooneys in the hangar for work ranging from an engine teardown to annual and panel upgrades.  The shop is practically an unlisted MSC.

[Marauder]

Goals for this thread are two-fold:  Cautionary tale for perspective buyers and wondering out loud how bad luck we've had.
Picked up a 1986 M20J August 14th 2018 for $110K, 12 years and 1200 hours SMO.  A couple of notes, the below is for two pilots getting their IFR ticket and about 140 hours total flight time on the plane.
Maintenance Costs in first year: $45,000
AvGas: $8500
IFR Checkride/Prep (2 pilots) other flying related expenses (memberships etc): $7400
Total: ~$60,000 first year costs (not including the plane itself).
Maintenance:
$3800 Pre-buy/Annual at pickup
$1100 Seat started to fail to lock -- Seat frame was broken.
$6200 Backup attitude indicator (turn coordinator replacement) started to fail, replaced with a G5, which when the pitot-static was tested failed the VSI, requiring an overhaul of the VSI.
$250 Battery died, stranding me (long distance uber required to get to where I was going not included)
$7200 VOR started failing, couldn't track down the problem, sent 530W to Garmin to debug, not issue found, ended up needing to overhaul the HSI and VOR #2.  GDL88 had a failure where N number wasn't present in the FAA reports when filing IFR.  New tire (my fault).
$9000 Stuck oil ring due to overheating issue, likely when we bought it appeared to have spark plugs that were not for the engine.  #4 went offline in flight, EGT/CHTs were low, but quickly lost oil pressure.  Landed without issue, but plane was not flyable, got 4 new cylinders from Lycoming and had the plugs replaced.
$8000 Install of new cylinders, Annual: broken compass bracket requiring remount, brakes were stuck on 1 side and didn't work, 2 new tires.  Gas cap seal hadn't been replaced at last annual, but stated in log book as replaced, I state this only because I feel a lot of stuff was probably missed, or not looked at on a typical annual.
Other miscellaneous expenses not stated: Oil changes and minor issues

TL;DR: Planes are expensive or maybe we just have bad luck or we have been taken for a ride, check the spark plugs on the engine to make sure they match in the prebuy, if they don't assume they are using them to cover up a problem--good compressions won't mean you're in the clear for engine work.
 

Look on the bright side, after 28 years of owning the same plane, I can safely say your operating costs will be roughly half of what you paid in the first year.

[fantom]

I hope the previous owner is on MooneySpace 

[Yetti]

Part of getting a 40 year old mechanical device is bringing her up to airworthy standards.   You sir are well on your way.  Tecnically you should have an upgrade column and a Maintenance column. since you have improved your situation in several areas.   Wrong spark plugs....   SMH  How freaking hard is it to look something up, it's like 2 google clicks.   Budget now for some new hoses and accessories (Alternator and such) and other since your engine has a new lease on life.  What I have found doing three owner assist annuals is we can focus on different areas to be specific on each year.   Trying to do the whole plane at one time is going to miss lots of stuff. 

[flight2000]

And who did that pre-buy/annual?  How do you miss having incorrect spark plugs installed?  I know no one is perfect, but that's ridiculous....

If it'll make you feel better, I'm spending $38 AMU to have Western Skyway's do a complete IO520 overhaul during this annual....earlier than anticipated. 

Hopefully, the worst is behind you now.  How much flying was the aircraft doing before you got it?  Sounds like you've exercised the ghosts that were lingering from non-use.

Cheers,

Brian

[ArtVandelay]

Mine was $55K:

Required maintenance: muffler O/H, gear motor & donuts, plugs (were correct ones in engine but engine log was wrong), all 3 tires, clogged fuel injector away from home, battery at home (died on a hot start), flap switch, landing light switch, new oil/brake hoses, mags were serviced, 1100 hours since last inspection plus assorted small items during annual:$15000

Optional maintenance (upgrades): LEDs, all new radio stack avionics: 28000

Hangar, fuel, insurance, training, and databases for the rest.

 

 

I fly almost 200 hrs/year, first year was about 7 months and came out to wet rate of $483/hr not including upgrades or engine reserve, after that it runs $117/hr or less. The rental if I could find one would be $175/hr. My engine 2200 SNEW, so at some point I’ll have a big bill to pay.

 

Edit: in 5 years of ownership I’ve spent twice what I paid for the plane, with upgrades accounting for 1/3 of expenses.

[Yetti]

Oh my first year things were:

 

The Cylinder is still in the box.   #4 is kind of oily, so we may replace next annual.  Depends on timing and such. At the third annual all cylinders were a 79.  Buying 40 year old equipment is a crapshoot.

[MikeBlackburn]

Crikey. For someone looking at an 81 J, this makes frightening reading.

[steingar]

My first ever year f ownership I decided to total up all my costs.  After seeing the results I assiduously vowed never to do such a thing again.

[Oldguy]

I bought my J in early 2013, and I can say the maintenance done on it prior to my purchase was nothing less than superb. I have spoken with one of its prior pilots when it was owned by BFG Aerospace/L-3, and he validated all the work shown in the log books actually took place. It now has over 5,200 TTAF and nearly 1,600 TSFOH. While I do not have the numbers in front of me, here is a list of what I have either done or plan to do to the plane in the next 12 months:

REQUIRED (already completed)

Attitude Indicator overhaul

New tires/tubes (3)

Vernatherm replacement

Ignition harness & mag cap

Alternator brushes

Fuel drain plug

IRAN ignition and master switch

Repair alternator field wire

Mag 500 hour overhaul

New Tempest massive plugs

Baggage door hold-open arm

PLANNED

Refresh/repair/repaint interior plastic (2018)

Exhaust system rebuild (2019)

Landing gear pucks - all (2019)

New carpet & sidewalls (2019)

Recover and re-foam seats (2019)

OPTIONAL (already done)

KT 74 (ADS-B Out)

LED landing light

Portable oxygen tank and cannulas

JPI 830

Sandia Quattro 340

KAS 297B

Aspen 1000 PFD Pro

KEA 346 Altimeter

New 406 ELT

MX 20 replacement

All of the costs are in a spreadsheet at the house, but, like @steingar, I doubt I will ever total them up. I do know I hear 5-digit annual expenses, and I have been fortunate to avoid those up to now. But those optional items did sorta bust that limit. 

[ShuRugal]

43 minutes ago, MikeBlackburn said:

Crikey. For someone looking at an 81 J, this makes frightening reading.

well, take stock of all the "gotchas" people are listing here, and make sure that they are checked on PreBuy inspection.

[Hank]

I've never added up everything since I started flight lessons in '06, and I'm not starting now!

That said, all I had my first couple of years was owner-assisted annuals. Half price for the assist, another half for my partner, the first one cost me $288. Nothing but up from there, but only two have run multiple AMUs (one included a surprise new muffler, there was a hole in the bottom I could put my fist in . . . . .

[1964-M20E]

Well I do owner assisted maintenance and annuals and I've had an E and an F for the past 8 years and I think the most expensive year was with the E model when I replaced the exhaust system, control rod ends ect. and that was about 7 to 8AMU and by far the most expensive annual and year as well as my first year of ownership.  This year is probably the second I have replaced a number or things on my F.

Now I did spend many AMUs on upgrading to the IFD540 and APX322 remote ADSB transponder a couple of years ago but that was an upgrade not repair or maintenance.

I was not there but you said you had an issue with a stuck oil ring on one cylinder.  Why did you replace the other 3 cylinders?  There was a possible 6 or 8 AMU savings there.

Finally , if I understand correctly you spent $9k on new Lycoming cylinders (sounds about right) and another $8k for the install?  $8k for the install equates to about 80 hours of shop time that does seem very high to me.  Again I was not there but that would make the savings on the 3 cylinders right about $13.5k

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, MikeBlackburn said:

Crikey. For someone looking at an 81 J, this makes frightening reading.

I think it’s probably more the norm. It’s one of the main reasons I tend to hold planes for a long time. That and the expensive 9% sales/use tax. 

-Robert 

[Seth]

Oy!

My 1967 F Model I purchased in July of 2008 cost me about 20% year 1 in maintenance including the annual.  The annual was expensive as many deferred maintenance items had been missed in the prebuy.  The only other big purchases were a Garmin 496 portable and an overhaul of an oil temp gauge.  Part of the higher percentage is due to the lower purchase price. 

 

in 2011, My 1983 M20J Missile 300 cost me 0% extra.  Let me explain:   Because I paid much lower than the cost of Missile in good shape, I technically, I paid about 60% of purchase price in the first 3 months, but that included some panel work including an engine monitor upgrade, an aera 560 purchase and panel mounted, an engine overhaul, prop flush, and a few other smaller items.  I purchased the plane at a large discount, and for almost exactly the amount spend fixing it plus my purchase price, I was equal to the value of the airplane.

The airplane flew perfectly during pre-buy but metal was found in the oil filter, thus, the plane was then grounded, and I let the owner know I was still very interested in the Missile, but not at the original price.  I told the broker what I would pay and the owner replied with a no.  Three weeks later after lowball bids or no action, I reached out to the broker and my offer was taken.  There were a few other items found during the prebuy.  A good prebuy makes a world of difference.  Also seeing an airplane taken care of by it's owner both in logs and looks helps with deferred maintenance items.  It's been a great 7 years.  The six years following that work had been pretty good - this last year with autopilot repairs have been a bit pricey, and it's a very capable airplane.

 

-Seth

 

 

 

 

[SantosDumont]

First rule of flight club... don’t talk about the cost of flight club. 

[David Lloyd]

Bought 3 airplanes over the years, each had minimal flying and deferred maintenance for a couple years.  Each took two years and many dollars to massage out the kinks.  Brand new, just built RV, same.

The 3 old planes were a 1968 Cherokee purchased 1978, 1965 C purchased 1981, and 1971 F33A purchased 1984.  

[Bartman]

I got lucky and found a  well cared for M20J. The only thing I did in the first year was add a JPI 700 with fuel flow, but the WX 1000e display died and basically I just pulled it and sold it.  Year 2 we rebuilt the AI and HSI. After that I bought gas and oil for 1000 hours. 

I cannot imagine how @base698 felt. 

[gsxrpilot]

My experience has been closer to @Bartman. But I don't think its all luck. It's shopping for a good plane rather than a good price. It's getting to know the owner. "Pre-buy" the owner as much as you would the plane. This includes talking to other pilots and shops who know the owner. Get a pre-buy from a Mooney shop, not just any A&P. Look at planes that are flying now and regularly.

If all of this can be done without falling in love at first sight. In fact, done without any emotion coming into play, you'll likely have a good outcome.

[Skates97]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

My experience has been closer to @Bartman. But I don't think its all luck. It's shopping for a good plane rather than a good price. It's getting to know the owner. "Pre-buy" the owner as much as you would the plane. This includes talking to other pilots and shops who know the owner. Get a pre-buy from a Mooney shop, not just any A&P. Look at planes that are flying now and regularly.

If all of this can be done without falling in love at first sight. In fact, done without any emotion coming into play, you'll likely have a good outcome.

I broke most of the rules when I bought my plane. I had the owner's mechanic do the annual/pre-buy and I paid about $1,500 more than what the bank had the plane valued at so had to put extra down above the 15% minimum. The most important thing that I did though was to pre-buy the owner. I felt he was completely upfront about everything and almost two years later still feel the same way. It was a plane that flew regularly, and having all the paperwork/logs from the day it left the factory left little to the imagination as to what had been done to the plane. He was only selling it because he had moved up to an Ovation (if I recall correctly). I knew I was paying more than the plane was technically worth, but felt it was worth that much to me so didn't mind paying the extra.

In the first year the only thing I "had" to do was replace the ignition wires, voltage regulator, generator, and the 500 hour mag inspection that I knew would have to be done in the first year when I bought the plane. There were also the oil changes that I did myself. First annual was $500 with myself supplying the labor and supplies (lube, etc...), no major work needed to be done. This was logging 140 hours of flight time in it.

In addition to that during the first year I also chose to install shoulder belts right after purchase (best upgrade you can do), added a EDM 830 (next best purchase), fuel cap o-rings with flourosilicone seals, spark plugs (was running but did run better after replacement), and an SL-40 (much better radio quality although the other still worked and is still my #2 in the plane).

Now the second year it has been more expensive, but nothing that would have been caught at a pre-buy. I have replaced the governor, intake tube gaskets, oil return hoses, overhauled the AI and Altimeter, and replaced the ELT batteries.

Still, I don't feel like I have been surprised by any of it.

[Dream to fly]

@base698,  I got you beat at 68K after purchasing the plane for 52K. I flew it for a handful of hours in two years and it has been down the rest of the time.  I just got it fired up last night after an extensive upgrade.  My goal was to be debt free and keep costs controlled.  What I have learned is that when you own a plane you are all in and cost has no ceiling.   Education is expensive and I thought after having two different mechanics do a pre-buy I was in the clear.  What turned out was a lot of things they didn't see in a pre-buy but an annual should have caught.   My advise is skip the pre-buys its a joke.  Pay for an annual and take the plane apart look and ask questions.   Owning will never be cheaper or cost effective but if you want to sit in the pilots seat it and say you own it then be prepared for the outlay of money. 

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, base698 said:

My buying experience was roughly looking obsessively for almost two years and even putting some offers in along the way, only to have the sell fall through for a variety of reasons--owner refused a prebuy even though a Mooney specialist was 2nm away at another airport, decided not to sell the plane, something wrong like missing logs, etc.  I decided to pay a little more than I'd originally intended and use a broker.   Also used a Mooney Specialist, the king allegedly, for the prebuy.  

Education is expensive 

Damn... sounds like you did everything you could to ensure a positive outcome.

[Cyril Gibb]

21 hours ago, base698 said:

Some items seem unusually expensive

Maintenance:
$3800 Pre-buy/Annual at pickup
$1100 Seat started to fail to lock -- Seat frame was broken. *not possible to simply repair/weld?
$6200 Backup attitude indicator (turn coordinator replacement) started to fail, replaced with a G5, which when the pitot-static was tested failed the VSI, requiring an overhaul of the VSI. *did the pitot-static check damage the VSI or was the pitot-static check for IFR certification not done properly?
$7200 VOR started failing, couldn't track down the problem, sent 530W to Garmin to debug, not issue found, ended up needing to overhaul the HSI and VOR #2.  *both the HSI and VOR#2 failed simultaneously? 

GDL88 had a failure where..... *GDL88 failure, or installation error?
$9000 Stuck oil ring due to overheating issue, likely when we bought it appeared to have spark plugs that were not for the engine.  #4 went offline in flight, EGT/CHTs were low, but quickly lost oil pressure.  *both plugs for #4 failed simultaneously? And that caused low oil pressure? How?

...and more....

Although It’s impossible to know for sure with the info in your post, it sounds like you’re getting suboptimal (and very expensive) maintenance or advice.  Pencil whipped pre-buy/annual.  Avionics shop that seems to have limited diagnostic abilities.  Plus other comments made by others...

Time to look for better maintainers.

 

 

[MyNameIsNobody]

16 hours ago, SantosDumont said:

First rule of flight club... don’t talk about the cost of flight club. 

His name is SantosDumont...