WATCH OUT line boys caused leak in my fuel tank.

[Seth]

Dan-

Sorry to hear about the mess.  Glad the situation is coming to a resolution.

Questions:

1. Was it a hot day?

2. Was the airplane in direct sunlight on the ramp?

3. Were tanks fully topped off?

 

The reasoning for my questioning is that I have a small fuel leak/seep somewhere near a top seam when my extended range and thus main tanks are fully topped.  Usually I top for a long trip and depart.  It’s a non issue once a few gallons are burned off.  However, when topped fully, hot, and in direct sunlight, the fuel expands, and the wings become pressure vessels down the fuel to find A way out.  For those that saw my airplane dripping fuel out the belly at Mooney Summit last year, this is a perfect example. Topped, sat on a sunlit ramp, and the fuel warmed up, expanded, and leaked out.  At some point I will repair this, but often I done need 98 gallons in the tanks, and on long flights I’ll use the offending side for startup and climb (first 10 gallons).  

 

If this is the case for you, I’m curious if the line guy took extra time to really top your tanks, it sat in the sun, and the hot temps plus the cool fuel from the truck expanded and created more pressure than normal on a failing seal or component.

Just a potential theory.

Hope to catch up with you at Summit or Oshkosh if you are attending either!

 

-Seth

[Bravoman]

Perhaps the fueler caused the nozzle tip to forcefully contact the inside of the tank at a seam and the sealant was compromised? 

[kellym]

6 hours ago, Danb said:

After 90 minutes it was still dripping constantly filling up the bottom of a five gallon can, I don’t believe the speed brake case can hold that much, we found a small tear of the sealant on one side of the casing, which is the reasoning to have me repair it at there cost, not being mechanical I’m attempting to be logical, it originally was siphoning out then to a constant drip, there was zero chance to I’d leave that way.

Fuel tanks are sealed on the inside. A few large gaps may get some sealant added on the outside. While it may be possible for a nozzle to poke into some sealant if it has extra long nozzle,

I don't believe that just pumping at full blast to overfill is going to cause a leak. Spill fuel all over, and yes it will take a while to get it all out. Unless it is on hot pavement, avgas doesn't evaporate all that quickly. It after all has an RVP of 7.0, compared to most summer mogas is between 7.5 in really hot areas to 9.0 in cooler areas.

Adding Proseal or mil-spec equivalent to the outside of the tank isn't going to help more than the most tiny of leaks. If there is truly a leak, one has to find where the fuel is working its way past the sealant on the inside, and clean to bare metal, then apply new sealant. I seriously doubt you have an actual leak.

I understand wanting to get the FBO to repair on their dime. However, I would take more time to verify actual leakage, evidenced by stains from avgas drying on the outside or on the pavement under your normal parking space. The tube you are talking about is a drain, and is not connected into the tank at all. Everything in the tanks is metal tubing, vents, fuel line, etc.

Just MHO, having stripped and sealed two more Mooney tanks than I wanted to do.

[Jim Peace]

14 hours ago, Marauder said:

 I don’t know why you can’t legally fly on one tank to a MSC.

While on this subject make sure you take a look at the Mooney website to see an updated list of MSC.  There are several out there that claim to be a MSC and they are not.  I phone verified with Mooney that the one I thought was is in fact not, even though their log book stickers say they are. Long story short I now have to fly my plane 10 hours to a person I trust to have something fixed that this non- MSC broke and they don't have the brain power to fix.  I was thinking about getting a lawyer involved but it would cost me more than the 10 hours in flight time and more grief than I want. So they win and I lose, as usually the case in the USA.....but I do have the knowledge to never take a plane there again.....

I fucking hate this level of aviation......

[Danb]

Except Paul it was cause and effect, once the fuel shot out the problem occurred, no question he was at fault, I was just notified the nozzle was new and malfunctioned,. Also the tank has been opened up there also is an area where the sealant was dislodged, starting to appear two areas were damaged, the plane is a 2005 model which prior had no issues.

[Danb]

Seth it was 8am yesterday, not hot yet, plane as taken out of the hanger after a long trip with 10gal on that side, the long range tank where the problem is was basically dry. I’ll be the both the Summit and O

[Danb]

Jim my plane has had all its maintenance done at MSC facilities since new except for a failed mag enroute a few yrs ago, there are bad mechanics out there who ruin the name for the good ones.

[gsxrpilot]

48 minutes ago, Danb said:

Except Paul it was cause and effect, once the fuel shot out the problem occurred, no question he was at fault, I was just notified the nozzle was new and malfunctioned,. Also the tank has been opened up there also is an area where the sealant was dislodged, starting to appear two areas were damaged, the plane is a 2005 model which prior had no issues.

Look, I feel for you. Even with the FBO covering the cost of repair, it's very inconvenient and troubling. But one should be very careful about assigning blame too quickly on a public forum like this. Now you say it was a malfunctioning fuel nozzle. OK, that is the fault of the FBO using the fuel nozzle but not the fault of the Line Boy. In fact, if you'd been handling the nozzle it would have been you causing the damage. It's a very unlucky series of events. But not one that anyone of us can "WATCH OUT" for. Shit happens. I'm glad the FBO is taking responsibility. And hope you're back in the air quickly.

Meanwhile there's no reason for me to worry about the line boy fueling my Mooney right now for a flight to the Great White North today.

[Danb]

Paul I actually didn’t assess blame first, the general manager at the unnamed FBO took responsibility on his own. They have acted first class, bringing the supervisor of maintenance in on a Saturday and another mechanic. There company has been first class in the situation, while many differing opinions have been cited above the situation was created by the lineboy who didn’t know the nozzle would malfunction. I’ve gotten fuel there for years but this is the first time I’ve taxied to the FBO for fuel, I’m real lucky it occurred in front of there eyes and not on the other side of the field. The watch out is absolutely warranted to keep an eye on your plane, if I were not there and they cleaned up the mess there would be a chance I would fly off with no knowledge of what occurred, so if you choose not to watch out for your plane my diligence will now increase. 

[Mark89114]

Boy there are a lot of things being said in here that aren't making sense......

Fuel expanding in the heat, yes that happens but there is a vent to allow expansion so the air can get out, and I assume in worst case scenario fuel.  If your vent is clogged, yes that could be a problem.  

Malfunctioning Fuel nozzle causing too much pressure?  I would think the pump is regulated to a certain PSI, not sure how the line person is responsible for that.  

Maybe if they completely overfilled it for minutes, fuel would drain down outside and into the speedbrake and fill that void up and then leak around the plastic tube, which is just a drain from the speedbrake, which was installed incorrectly on my plane.....they crimped up the tube, therefore any water that did get it wouldn't drain, but I digress.

To be honest, I have a hard time following the OP posters description.

 

[Danb]

Mark, they didn’t fill the tank completely, when the nozzle was depressed fuel shot out, the worker pulled out the nozzle while being depressed, which led to fuel over the wing, which ran off onto the ground including running off the right main, unfortunately I didn’t video the fuel on the ground rather I moved my plane out of the say 10x10 area of fuel on the ground. It wasn’t until say 15 minutes later I noticed the fuel leaving my plane somewhere. I then washed the fuel off the plane. An hour or so later as depicted by my video it still dripped constantly originally running out around the tube not through the tube, I’m clueless in mechanical stuff.  This drip stopped after the fuel was drained. The purpose of my alert to the msers was to just watch there plane when being fueled. Not starting a conversation regarding what happened inside the tank. My reasoning was to alert all of us to be diligent, at this point I don’t really care to speculate what happened, just get my plane back the way it was prior to getting fuel. So if the op didn’t explain it properly get over it.

[Danb]

Jim I couldn’t agree more.

[Yooper Rocketman]

I have to be so diligent when they fill the Lancair.  It fuels slow (like a turbine helicopter) and way too many line guys have drenched the top of my wing in Jet A (none since new paint though).  I'm almost an ass now when they fill it, with the new paint, if they aren't taking my fueling instructions/cautions seriously.  I too have scratches and chips in the paint by my Mooney fuel caps, and prefer to fuel myself.

Dan,  just a humble suggestion, maybe the subject line could be changed to caution others about observing / monitoring fueling operations while being a bit less accusatory.  The original subject line looks like something I would do when P.O.ed just after the incident.  :>)

Tom

[Bravoman]

This is why I absolutely insist on supervising fueling when I’m traveling. As a matter of fact, most of the time they let me do the fueling when the fuel truck pulls up. I always tip the linemen to let them know I appreciate them.

[HRM]

On 6/30/2018 at 10:32 AM, Piloto said:

Next time have the line girls do the fill up.

Indeed! They never squeeze it too hard.

 

[Stephen]

On 7/1/2018 at 7:07 AM, gsxrpilot said:

Meanwhile there's no reason for me to worry about the line boy fueling my Mooney right now for a flight to the Great White North today.

Looked at it on flight aware, all the way to the Hudson bay! Nice trip!  We go through Intl Falls up to Sioux Lookout every year to do a fishing trip and I've thought a few times how nice it would be to Mooney up there from Missouri. 

[DualRatedFlyer]

Thought this post was interesting given my experience down in NC yesterday. I was visiting overnight with some family and was debating calling the fbo to fuel my plane before leaving, or fueling it when I showed up. It was really hot and I was in a hurry to go so I was leaning towards having them fuel it without me and prior to my arrival. The little mooneyspace voice in my head said no and reminded me of all those damaged nose gear trusses. I decided to wait and get fuel when I showed up to the airport where I could supervise. My family thought I was being oversensitive or over cautious - these ppl work with airplanes all day, right?  I show up, ask the line guy to top off the plane and ask him if he has any experience towing Mooney's and if he is aware of the turning limits. His response -- " this is my first day, I don't even know which one is a Mooney". He was unsupervised as well. The tow bar was hooked to a tractor, so I am for sure I would have had damage had I not helped him.

No criticism to him, I didn't know either until I became a Mooney owner. But that sure was a lesson for me to not trust anyone with my plane. Would have been heartbroken to have my landing gear damaged, incur costs away from home, and possibly not have had it repaired in time for Oshkosh. I tried to leave him more knowledgeable than I found him and gave him a quick point and look around the nose gear area so hopefully the next Mooney that he comes accross he will have a better idea of how to tow. 

[Marauder]

Thought this post was interesting given my experience down in NC yesterday. I was visiting overnight with some family and was debating calling the fbo to fuel my plane before leaving, or fueling it when I showed up. It was really hot and I was in a hurry to go so I was leaning towards having them fuel it without me and prior to my arrival. The little mooneyspace voice in my head said no and reminded me of all those damaged nose gear trusses. I decided to wait and get fuel when I showed up to the airport where I could supervise. My family thought I was being oversensitive or over cautious - these ppl work with airplanes all day, right?  I show up, ask the line guy to top off the plane and ask him if he has any experience towing Mooney's and if he is aware of the turning limits. His response -- " this is my first day, I don't even know which one is a Mooney". He was unsupervised as well. The tow bar was hooked to a tractor, so I am for sure I would have had damage had I not helped him.
No criticism to him, I didn't know either until I became a Mooney owner. But that sure was a lesson for me to not trust anyone with my plane. Would have been heartbroken to have my landing gear damaged, incur costs away from home, and possibly not have had it repaired in time for Oshkosh. I tried to leave him more knowledgeable than I found him and gave him a quick point and look around the nose gear area so hopefully the next Mooney that he comes accross he will have a better idea of how to tow. 

Early in my Mooney ownership, I found a bent truss after letting several FBOs move my plane. I tell any FBO I stop at that the plane needs to be parked where it will not be moved for my entire stay. I also do the fill up while I supervise (if they don’t let me do it myself).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[gsxrpilot]

2 hours ago, Stephen said:

Looked at it on flight aware, all the way to the Hudson bay! Nice trip!  We go through Intl Falls up to Sioux Lookout every year to do a fishing trip and I've thought a few times how nice it would be to Mooney up there from Missouri. 

There is a lot of nothing between here in Churchill. But beautiful country. The gravel runways are smoother and better condition than many paved runways I'm used to.

I must say the pucker factor was there when spending a couple of hours out of radar coverage, out of radio range, and over terrain that is 80% water and 20% soggy tundra. But it was a bucket list item to see Hudson Bay. And do it in my Mooney.

The bonus was a lot of old style IFR flying. No ADSB, no Stratus, just look out the window and fly. Position reports, contact approaches, and "about to loose you on the radio, check back with me in 150 miles". I watched my autopilot fly a fully coupled ILS approach to a gravel runway without any lights, PAPI, VASI, anything. Enjoyed every minute of it.

[Stnelson903]

Next time have the line girls do the fill up.

LOL. That looks like the line girls in Salt Lake City in the 1990’s, except the boots.


S. T. Nelson
N231JG
Just Go